Deep Thoughts: The Jewish Race

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 7, 2006

czach8 said:
So again we shall stick to the point. Have we come to a conclusion that there is no such thing as a race?

In addition, we never really defined the idea of "chosen".

God bless all souls.

Hi. If we go by the OC of the Bible, it was the Children of Israel, the same ones shown as being "sealed" in Revelation.
Btw, what is meant by "latter days"

Thoughts?

Hosea 3:5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Daniel 10:14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to Your People in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

Reve 7:4 </I>And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:

Was Jesus considered a Biblical "Jew"?

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

Jesus is referred as a so-called "Jew" for the first time in the New Testament in the 18th century. Jesus is first referred to as a so-called "Jew" in the revised 18th century editions in the English language of the 14th century first translations of the New Testament into English.

ChavaK · Dec 7, 2006

czach8 said:
What is a beit din? I still do not understand this process. Can you elaborate?

A bet din is a Jewish rabbinical court. Anyone who wants to convert must first find a rabbi who will
accept to take them as a conversion candidate,
and then go before the bet din to be accepted
as a conversion candidate (they want to make sure
the person is sincere and will observe the mitzvot
and be willing to make this a life long commitment).
After the candidate has satisfied his sponsoring
rabbi that he is ready to go to the mikveh, he must
go before the bet din to answer questions on his
commitment, Jewish law and observance, etc.
Only after the bet din is satisfied does he go to
the mikeveh and become a Jew. The bet din also
signs to conversion papers for the convert..not
all conversions are accepted by all Jews, so the
bet din one goes to is very important...
A bet din (house of judgement) serves many other
purposes besides dealing with conversions..

ChavaK · Dec 7, 2006

czach8 said:
So are the books of prophets(Isaiah, Joel, Jeremia, etc) and wisdom(pslams, proverbs, etc) a part of the Torah?

Torah actually has a couple of meanings...it stands for
the first five books of the Bible, or the actual scroll
the first five books are written upon, or as a generic
word for Jewish law and learning....
Psalms and prophets are part of the Tanach (Jewish bible)
which stands for Torah, Navi'im (prophets) and Ketuvim
(writings)...

Achichem · Dec 8, 2006

What is the Jewish race?

In the simplest terms I would view the Jewish race as nation amongst nations, including all people who are united by identifying with the group and connected to the roots in someway.

In other words, what is a race? Is race a certain blood? Is race is certain type of genetic code? Is race a culture? Does race depend on the beliefs of a certain people?

No none of these things...a race is a unbodied nation. It's a type of citizenship.

Is there really a difference between a Jew and a Gentile(rest of mankind)?

I would say it ridiculous to think not, Jewishness after-all has a long history of being standoutish; however, i think it also important to note that if a gentile chooses to graft into jewishness that their children, and in a slightly different way they themselves are now citizens of the tribe, and in that way stop being different.

When God said the Jews are His chosen people, what is He referring to?

It harder to explain then one might think, but its seem to me to be about a standard.

He certainly doesn't seem to mean affinity by birth, rather it seems he is saying he is going to treat them differently(harsher) than the rest so that an opportunity for all can come about(priesthood). And I am not just talking about giving birth to a messiah.

Was He referring to a certain culture, blood, genetic code, or a belief?

He was referring to nation which dates back to the forefathers.

The crux of your question though seem to be the difference between a righteous gentile and a jew.

I think too many people want to be chosen, without realizing what that means...

A righteous gentile is beloved and in so entitled to all the riches of heaven without bias, but that does not make them chosen, the chosen are not necessary beloved, just held to a different standard.

Does God really chose people based on a certain material characteristic or is there a spiritual connection we are not seeing?

I think it important to decipher the difference between being chosen to be blessed, loved and some such and being chosen to carry the covenant(deals) and promises past down from certain forefathers.

plum · Dec 8, 2006

czach8 said:
So basically what you are saying is that all the people in the world were exempt from the Word of God until the Messiah came. Therefore, Jews were only chosen, and all others in the world were not in God's eyes until Christ was born. I do not see the logic in that considering the Holy Trinity is eternal, and in addition God's Word was omnipresent throughout the earth. Take a look at the following verses:

Psalm 98:3 says, He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Psalm 147:15 says, He sends his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly.

Hosea 13:4 also says, But I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior (Trinity) except me.

The Hosea verse clearly shows Jesus was with the Jews before His birth on earth, so the Trinity is omnipresent as well.

Now you also said in deuteronomy 7:9, "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands".

Again, Psalm 147:15 says, He sends his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly".

I purposely bolded the word "command" in the last two verses to show God obviously chooses those who follow His commands, so can you say there were other chosen people in the world besides the Jews before the birth of Christ?

God bless.

late reply on my part...

but no, that's not at all what i was saying.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 8, 2006

ChavaK said:
Torah actually has a couple of meanings...it stands for
the first five books of the Bible, or the actual scroll
the first five books are written upon, or as a generic
word for Jewish law and learning....
Psalms and prophets are part of the Tanach (Jewish bible)
which stands for Torah, Navi'im (prophets) and Ketuvim
(writings)...

Hi. Thanks for that post. The word "towrah" is used in the first book and last book of the Hebrew Tananch.
Would you consider non-Jews as under the righteousness of Abraham and Jews under the Law of Moses.
Kind of difficult explaining to the Muslims for example how one can be under both seeing as how they say Muhammad abrogated a lot of the Jewish Laws.
Thoughts?

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html
[Uses the very "inaccurate" KJV] :sigh:

towrah (Strong's 08451) occurs 219 times in 213 verses: Page 1, verses 1 - 25

Gen 26:5 Because 06118 that Abraham 085 obeyed 08085 my voice 06963, and kept 08104 my charge 04931, my commandments 04687, my statutes 02708, and my laws 08451.

Mal 4:4 Remember 02142 ye the law 08451 of Moses 04872 my servant 05650, which I commanded 06680 unto him in Horeb 02722 for all Israel 03478, [with] the statutes 02706 and judgments 04941.

muffler dragon · Dec 8, 2006

czach8 said:
What is a beit din? I still do not understand this process. Can you elaborate?

Beit Din

wiki said:
A beth din or beis din (בית דין, Hebrew: "house of judgment", plural battei din) is a rabbinical court of Judaism. In ancient times, it was the building block of the legal system in the Land of Israel. Today, it is invested with legal powers in a number of religious matters, both in Israel and in Jewish communities throughout the world, where their judgments hold varying degrees of authority (depending upon the jurisdiction and subject matter) in matters specifically germane to Jewish religious life.

The conversion process takes years to complete (typically).

Normally, there are three rejections (not always, but most of the time).
Rabbinic study where one learns Hebrew, festivals, Torah...

It's not an easy process.

czach said:
So are the books of prophets(Isaiah, Joel, Jeremia, etc) and wisdom(pslams, proverbs, etc) a part of the Torah?

Technically, the breakdown of the Jewish Bible is as such:

TaNaKh is an acronym for TNK.

T = Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy)
N = Nevi'im (Prophets)
K = Ketuvim (Writings0

Some do call the entire TaNaKh, "the Torah"; but 98% of the time Torah is the first five books.

muffler dragon · Dec 8, 2006

LittleLambofJesus said:
Shalom and thanks for your time in posting your views.

You're welcome.

LLoJ said:
I felt he was a type of "Savior" according to what he did for the OC Hebrews by freeing them from bondage and the oppressive Egyptians.

Moshe didn't free the Hebrews from the bondage and oppression of the Egyptians. G-d did. Moshe was the instrument.

muffler dragon · Dec 8, 2006

czach said:
When God said the Jews are His chosen people, what is He referring to?

Achichem said:
It harder to explain then one might think, but its seem to me to be about a standard.

He certainly doesn't seem to mean affinity by birth, rather it seems he is saying he is going to treat them differently(harsher) than the rest so that an opportunity for all can come about(priesthood). And I am not just talking about giving birth to a messiah.

I have to say that I believe your explanation, achichem, is not correct.

ChavaK · Dec 8, 2006

Achichem said:
In the simplest terms I would view the Jewish race as nation amongst nations, including all people who are united by identifying with the group and connected to the roots in someway.

This is not a Jewish explanation....
First, there is no Jewish "race"...Jews in exist in all
races of man.
Being a Jew is being part of a people, who are in
a covenental relationship with HaShem.
A Jew is either born into this relationship via a
Jewish mother, or is converted... "identifying with
the group and connected to the roots in someway"
may be a messianic explanation, but not a Jewish
one....

ChavaK · Dec 8, 2006

arunma said:
I would just like to note that I do not believe that Jews are the chosen people of God, nor do I believe that anyone can be under the grace of God by virtue of being Jewish.

This doesn't pertain to what he was asking...

ChavaK · Dec 8, 2006

Achichem said:
however, i think it also important to note that if a gentile chooses to graft into jewishness that their children, and in a slightly different way they themselves are now citizens of the tribe, and in that way stop being different.

Only if you mean that a gentile can become a Jew by halachic conversion. A gentile who adopts Jewish
customs, "grafts in", is still a gentile and not a
Jew, nor a "citizen of the tribe"...

czach8 · Dec 8, 2006

eirene said:
late reply on my part...

but no, that's not at all what i was saying.

Well you still did not answer my questions that are highlighted in green font.

Achichem · Dec 8, 2006

muffler dragon said:
I have to say that I believe your explanation, achichem, is not correct.

In the way you believe affinity by birth? Or in the way that the different standard is not what is meant either?

ChavaK,
I was actually just trying to was explain your answers from a different angle in order to lead into questions I thought might follow. Reading it over now after your comments though I certainly see I really did just blur the issue more... My bad.

muffler dragon · Dec 8, 2006

Achichem said:
In the way you believe affinity by birth?

There is no affinity by birth. G-d does not covet the Jew over the Gentile. The sole difference is calling, and this goes into my answer to your second question.

Achichem said:
Or in the way that the different standard is not what is meant either?

All men are called to obey G-d. There is no difference in that at all, and the standard is the same: disobedience v. obedience. The difference is what each group is to obey. The Jews are called to the Torah as observers, caretakers, and teachers. The Gentiles are not.

Exegete12 · Dec 9, 2006

arunma said:
The Bible teaches that the church is the true Israel. As such, the Scripture applies only to Christians.

The Old Testament scriptures did apply to the House of Judah and House of Israel.

They forfeited their privileges and blessings through disobedience. But this hardening of their heart is only TEMPORARY until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

God still made an EVERLASTING covenant with Israel. He cannot go back on His Word. Our God is still ethical.

Exegete12 · Dec 9, 2006

LittleLambofJesus said:
Nice post. For those that do read and believe in the LORD and the "Christ" of the Bible, it alway mentions a Royal Priesthood and Kingship. Isn't that was the Lord Jesus represented for all mankind.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm

..........Man after the flesh is born of corruptible seed, but there is another generation born of incorruptible seed, who desire earnestly the pure milk of the Word, and then the strong meat of the Word, and who grow up into the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ by it. They become "a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a purpose" (I Pet. 2:9). Just what the Lord proposed in Exodus chapter 19.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/kingdom/kog1.htm

It is significant to note that the phrases Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are not to be found in the Old Testament. They are strictly New Testament terms beginning with John the Baptist and Jesus. When Jesus came He did not preach a message called grace, or salvation, or justification, or sanctification, or regeneration, or even the Church. Could there be any more glorious message than the one that fell from His lips as He began His sonship ministry declaring, The KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND! From that time forward the great teaching of the Lord centered in the truth of THE KINGDOM. His gospel was the gospel (good news) of the Kingdom of God.

But they didn't want it, so we Gentiles grabbed the crumbs and off we went under the Apostle Paul's leadership of having the Kingdom of God within us.

But Jesus will restore the Kingdom of God to the Jews (in a natural context), along with His Saints (the Bride of Christ, the Church who would have already been raptured and this was the mystery which had not be made known to them, but was from the beginning of the foundation of the world). This is the mystery Paul speaks about.

Exegete12 · Dec 9, 2006

Okay what about the Ashkenazi Jews and the Sepharic (sp?) Jews? The former are more European and the latter more Middle Eastern looking.

Also what about this verse?

"Those who say they are Jews but are not, but are actually of the synagogue of satan"

Rev 2: 8, 9 and 3: 8.9.

czach8 · Dec 9, 2006

AlHannah said:
Okay what about the Ashkenazi Jews and the Sepharic (sp?) Jews? The former are more European and the latter more Middle Eastern looking.

Yes exactly, and what about the Ethiopan Jews?

Exegete12 · Dec 10, 2006

czach8 said:
Yes exactly, and what about the Ethiopan Jews?

and the Indians too:

by Michael Blum Tue Nov 21, 10:30 AM ET
TEL AVIV (AFP) - Claiming to be descendants of an ancient "lost" tribe, a first batch of some 50 Indian immigrants who converted to Judaism has started a new life in Israel amid tears and a warm welcome.

The group touched down at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion airport Tuesday on a commercial flight before being handed new immigrant cards by Israeli officials and bused to an absorption centre in the north of the country.

Nirit Pachuau, a 23-year-old woman travelling with her parents and four brothers and sisters, said she had fulfilled a life-long dream.

"I'm living a real miracle. I have finally come to live in my country, we have returned home. It's as if we were coming from Egypt," she said, evoking the exodus from Egypt by the Israelites in the time of Moses.

The Indians claim to be descendants of one of the 10 tribes who lived in the land of Israel during Biblical times and which dispersed, according to Biblical tradition, when the Assyrians invaded in 721 BC.

It looks like everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and be one of 'God's Chosen People'. You have British Israelites, also.

The claims of this Indian tribe and the Ethopian ones, said they practised Jewish customs, but only problem was, is that God sent them out by an EAST wind and drove them into many countries, because they were sacrificing to other IDOLS and not worshipping in Jewish ways. They would have been Buddha's or Hindu's then, after all Jeremiah and Ezekial warned them about them burning their incenses to the gods all the time. This is clearly not Judaism.

It may be that life would be better in Israel, than Ethopia or India, as Israel has a high standard of living.

Just thoughts.

Deep Thoughts: The Jewish Race

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