Why are Manger scenes not graven images?

midnightbirdgirl · Dec 7, 2006

Well I say err on the said of the Word.

Graven is any carved, sculpted or engraved image.
I stick to God Word on this one. A bible should not be bowed before, but is not a graven image.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 4:23
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

That includes Nativity scenes.

http://p105.ezboard.com/bfinalauthority48270

icxn · Dec 7, 2006

midnightbirdgirl said:
Well I say err on the said of the Word.

Graven is any carved, sculpted or engraved image.
I stick to God Word on this one. A bible should not be bowed before, but is not a graven image.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 4:23
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

That includes Nativity scenes.

http://p105.ezboard.com/bfinalauthority48270

How about your son?

WarriorAngel · Dec 7, 2006

CalvinistSamurai said:
I've always found the idea of sculptures in general to be questionable, mostly based on the Jews' reaction to Hellenism. One of the main points of contention between the Jews and the Hellenists was the Greeks' love of statues of humans. The Jews thought it was utter idolatry. That being said, it could be said that the Pharasaical order was highly legalistic and less spiritual, and that we shouldn't worry about it. But it could also be said that God removed Judah and Isreal from their respective lands due to their idolatry, and the Jews' response to Hellenism was appropriate.

Speaking from my humanity though, manger scenes are a depiction of Christ's birth, a commemoration to one of the three most important events in human history (the other two being His death and resurrection). I don't like the idea of praying before sculptures or pictures, or kissing icons, but the above person was correct in saying that its a heart condition.

Shalom.

Beg pardon, but they had MYTHOLOGICAL gods, not human statutes.

Example; Venus, Zeus or what not. They indeed were their gods. It was Christianity that removed them from this....
but the 'mythology' renamed, became a fiction instead of the seriousness they held it as prior.
:wave:

midnightbirdgirl said:
Well I say err on the said of the Word.

Graven is any carved, sculpted or engraved image.
I stick to God Word on this one. A bible should not be bowed before, but is not a graven image.

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 4:23
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

That includes Nativity scenes.

http://p105.ezboard.com/bfinalauthority48270

God did not mean we could not use Heavenly reminders.
HE said not to make 'gods' we worship so IE...[in other words] dont create a god or gods and worship them.

This is not to be confused with...'looking towards Heaven..'
As Christ said to do.

What better reminder than to think on Heaven when we see our role models and other rememberances of Jesus?

I think an ABSENSE of icons, statutes, and religious items allows our minds to be distracted from the TRUE GOD, and we then give over our worship to worldly materials.

Hey, if you are not givena constant reminder...you might be likely to be more distracted.

EI........glued to the TV, or in some situtations things that are very bad for you...

WHEN I see a statue of Jesus or Mary... I feel I should pray and think about the Lord.

To suggest Catholics make graven images to worship is way way off the mark.

AND I wish ppl would stop stating as if fact, that we do these things.

Peaceful Dove · Dec 7, 2006

Paleoconservatarian said:
Actually, I do believe that nativity scenes are in violation of the second commandment. I do find it rather confusing that a Protestant would censure the Catholics and Orthodox for images and then set up their pictures of Jesus on their PowerPoint presentations (during worship!) and in their nativity scenes. What further boggles my mind is that these same Protestants downplay the role of the images that God did give us, the sacraments.

As I said earlier, I do believe that Protestants worship the Nativity Scene and also crosses. I use to be a Protestant but I left the Protestant denomination because of some of this. I know lots and lots of ex Protestants in the Catholic Church who will testify to this. There are a few other items they worship too.
That is not in the Bible.
Where in the Bible does it say you should worship the Nativity Scene or the cross??? Huh?
Please give me a scripture.

christianmomof3 · Dec 7, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
Beg pardon, but they had MYTHOLOGICAL gods, not human statutes.
Example; Venus, Zeus or what not. They indeed were their gods. It was Christianity that removed them from this....
but the 'mythology' renamed, became a fiction instead of the seriousness they held it as prior.

God did not mean we could not use Heavenly reminders.
HE said not to make 'gods' we worship so IE...[in other words] dont create a god or gods and worship them.

This is not to be confused with...'looking towards Heaven..'
As Christ said to do.

What better reminder than to think on Heaven when we see our role models and other rememberances of Jesus?

I think an ABSENSE of icons, statutes, and religious items allows our minds to be distracted from the TRUE GOD, and we then give over our worship to worldly materials.

Hey, if you are not givena constant reminder...you might be likely to be more distracted.

EI........glued to the TV, or in some situtations things that are very bad for you...

WHEN I see a statue of Jesus or Mary... I feel I should pray and think about the Lord.

To suggest Catholics make graven images to worship is way way off the mark.

AND I wish ppl would stop stating as if fact, that we do these things.

Actually, if you look at the context of the Old Testament, the Jews were surrounded by people who were praying to statues. The Egyptians prayed to statues and false gods. The greeks prayed to statues and false gods.

Even Mohammad got in trouble for saying that praying to statues was wrong. The idol makers got quite upset with him because he was destroying their business.
Historically, statues were prayed to.

I don't think you will find any Jewish statues or icons of anything.

It is my understanding that the Christian use of statues and pictures came in to help to show the uneducated masses what the religion was about since they were illiterate and could not read. Therefore, many of the artwork and stained glass windows showed the Bible stories.

And, while educated people would not pray to statues and paintings, it is possible that some people do.

Why do people line up to touch and kiss statues?

The Jews never have had statues, and icons nor have they needed them to know God, who is outside of them.

Why should we, who have the very living God living within us need statues and icons to remind us of His presence?

BearerBob · Dec 7, 2006

PaulAckermann said:
Many Protestants (not all) condemn us Catholics for having "graven images", which are condemned in the Bible.

And yet these same Protestants have manger scenes on their lawns and even in their churches. Why is it wrong to have a statue of Mary, Joseph, or Jesus unless it is in a manger scene at Christmas time?

I'll never have a Nativity scene again if Catholics will drop the stuff they do. Deal?

Oblio · Dec 7, 2006

The Jews never have had statues, and icons nor have they needed them to know God, who is outside of them.

This is simply false. We've posted here many times extant photos of ancient Jewish synagogues with icons.

The Jewish belief that God is unknowable and outside of the created world and themselves is part of their failure to see God as He truly is, and to hear the Gospel, and to be saved. To wit:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
(1 Corinthians 1:23 KJVA)

Peaceful Dove · Dec 7, 2006

Sorry, I can't go on with some of this with a straight face. It is cracking me up.

I have had folks accuse us of legalism so often and here I am seeing the type of legalistic rhetoric that the New Testament is full of...right out of the mouths of the Pharasees.

What fun!

BearerBob · Dec 7, 2006

Peaceful Dove said:
Sorry, I can't go on with some of this with a straight face. It is cracking me up.

I have had folks accuse us of legalism so often and here I am seeing the type of legalistic rhetoric that the New Testament is full of...right out of the mouths of the Pharasees.

What fun!

I understand. I have never heard of a Protestant praying in front of a Nativity scene. When the Jews made the Golden Calf, and worshipped before it, they knew it wasn't God, but Moses destroyed it anyway.

Oblio · Dec 7, 2006

But they thought it was a god.

Therefore it has nothing to do with us venerating those who are indwelt by God, or worshipping God Himself through His Holy Icons.

BearerBob · Dec 7, 2006

Oblio said:
But they thought it was a god.

Therefore it has nothing to do with us venerating those who are indwelt by God, or worshipping God Himself through His Holy Icons.

It was a representation of God, which they worshiped before. It was not God, and they knew that. They had just made it, and I suspect their short term memory wasn't that bad.

Oblio · Dec 7, 2006

They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
(Exodus 32:8 KJVA)

They worshipped the calf as a pagan god, not as God, and not as representation.

BearerBob · Dec 7, 2006

Oblio said:
They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
(Exodus 32:8 KJVA)

They worshipped the calf as a pagan god.

They knew that the object that they had made and worshiped as a representation of God was not God, just like you say you know that a statue of Saint Whoever is not God. Again, they made it. DO you think they forgot that?

Oblio · Dec 7, 2006

You are arguing with Scripture not me

These be thy gods ...

Not God, but gods. Not representation, but These be ...

BearerBob · Dec 7, 2006

Oblio said:
You are arguing with Scripture not me

These be thy gods ...

Compared to the number of times you're forced to do that, I won't worry.

Oblio · Dec 7, 2006

I find that amusing since our Church wrote your Bible.

Peaceful Dove · Dec 7, 2006

BearerBob said:
They knew that the object that they had made and worshiped as a representation of God was not God, just like you say you know that a statue of Saint Whoever is not God. Again, they made it. DO you think they forgot that?

BearerBob,
Do you really believe you know what is in the hearts and minds of folks? You do not know any of us, except on this faceless screen. I doubt if you have ever met a single Catholic, Orthodox who have told you they worship any statue or the person it depicts, unless it is of the Lord, himself. I have been a Catholic for over 50 years, spent much of those years with Catholics and except for a few very ignorant (poorly educated) Catholics ever heard one who believed any Saint, including the Blessed Mother could do anything except pray for us.
However, you seem to have intimate knowledge of the Catholic soul and mind that is far above what most mortals have.

Please explain this to me.

BearerBob · Dec 7, 2006

Oblio said:
I find that amusing since our Church wrote your Bible.

Really? I thought some Jews wrote most of it. How long have the Jews been part of your church?

BearerBob · Dec 7, 2006

Peaceful Dove said:
BearerBob,
Do you really believe you know what is in the hearts and minds of folks? You do not know any of us, except on this faceless screen. I doubt if you have ever met a single Catholic, Orthodox who have told you they worship any statue or the person it depicts, unless it is of the Lord, himself. I have been a Catholic for over 50 years, spent much of those years with Catholics and except for a few very ignorant (poorly educated) Catholics ever heard one who believed any Saint, including the Blessed Mother could do anything except pray for us.
However, you seem to have intimate knowledge of the Catholic soul and mind that is far above what most mortals have.

Please explain this to me.

Your assertion is ridiculous.

Oblio · Dec 7, 2006

Since the beginning. The Church and Israel are one.

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