no pants for ladies and no dancing?

mont974x4 · Dec 7, 2006

OK, for the sake of not furthering the hijack of someone elses thread....

1. Is it biblical for women to wear pants?
2. Is the "no dancing" issue biblical?

IMO...
1....women can wear pants. The issue is not pnats vs dresses but rather the cut or design of them. Back then everyone wore robes but there were men's robes and womens robes. Today, we have mens pants and womens pants. Like the hair mentioned in 1 Cor the purpose is to maintain our God given sexual identity.

2. I see no basis to think we can not dance. As I recall, David danced. So if anyone can share the verses used to justify the no dancing policy I'd appreciate it.

rainbowpromise · Dec 7, 2006

1. Is it biblical for women to wear pants?
2. Is the "no dancing" issue biblical?

IMO...

I cannot accept that this is a physical issue. I believe it is a matter of the heart. Biblically we have different roles, I do not feel this applies to clothing.
1. I wear men's shoes because I have rather large feet. However I can wear ladies shoes, they are just few and far between in finding.
2. I have been searching for a winter jacket in the ladies section for 2 years now. Still working with a sweater because I cna't find one. I know that I will find one in the men's section.
3. A friend of mine shops at tall men's shops. she also has a shoe size that does not come in ladies. She mostly wears jeans and t-shirts so she can look somewhat feminine.
Dancing is a different story. Dancing as it is portrayed in the Bible by David, is quite acceptable. I am sure that the world's view of dancing fits into the same category as Herodias' daughter dancing before Herod. Nothing good came from that. I still view dance as acceptable depending on the situation.

RajunCajun86 · Dec 7, 2006

david danced and i would venture to say that Jesus danced at the wedding where He turned water into wine

women's dress:
Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments
1 Timothy 2:9

i don't think you can claim that the Bible says no pants on the ladies and no dancing for all

DiscipleOfIAm · Dec 7, 2006

What about Hollywood movies and card playing? Some IFB's hold to this as well.

mont974x4 · Dec 7, 2006

DiscipleOfIAm said:
What about Hollywood movies and card playing? Some IFB's hold to this as well.

Personal choice. If you place limits on what movies you see I won't beat on you for it any more than you should beat on me if I choose to see those movies. I don't watch x rated movies, but will watch some r rated movies. I know people that won't even watch the Veggie Tales...this seems extreme to me but that's ok.

As to cards? That one never made sense to me either. :doh:

However, if you place that standard on yourself, by all means hold to your convictions just don't expect everyone else to hold to it as well.

Some honest common sense should apply in our personal decision making. For example, we can have a beer. The Bible says don't be drunk. If I know I have self control issues then I should just stay away from it. However, I should not demand everyone stay away from it.

Things are just that, they are things. How we use, or abuse, them is where we have issues.

http://www.koinonia.org.il/images/CarryCross.jpg ^_^

BereanTodd · Dec 7, 2006

I. On the women/pants issue the verse that is usually used to support this is from Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 22:5 - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a womans garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God

The problem there is that at the time it was written, 1500 BC or so, men generally wore garments that much more closely approximated dresses/skirts than modern day pants.

There is absolutely no basis for saying women should not wear pants. It is a regretful part of the legalistic, unbiblical vestiges of certain parts of American evangelicalism. There are guidelines to follow in clothing (women and men). I would say some good general principles would be:

1. Women should wear feminine clothing, and men masculine. There is a distinction in that respect.

2. Both should dress modestly at all times in public.

Beyond that there is not a whole lot that the Bible actually says in regards to dress, unless you want to expound somewhat on the modesty, or consider the issue of head-covering.

II. In respect to dancing, this is another area where the legalists have gotten way off base. There are forms of overly sexualised dance that I might consider sinful, but dancing in and of itself is not unbiblical nor ungodly, and can often be done in praise of our Lord and Savior.

III. As long as we're discussing areas of legalistic errors too often made, we might as well throw in drinking. Our Lord Jesus drank all of the time, he turned water into wine for others, in fact such a miracle was His first major miracle. Drinking should always be done in moderation (as should all things), and drunkeness is clearly sinful, but drinking is in no way unbiblical.

Erinwilcox · Dec 7, 2006

BereanTodd said:
I. On the women/pants issue the verse that is usually used to support this is from Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 22:5 - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a womans garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God

The problem there is that at the time it was written, 1500 BC or so, men generally wore garments that much more closely approximated dresses/skirts than modern day pants.

There is absolutely no basis for saying women should not wear pants. It is a regretful part of the legalistic, unbiblical vestiges of certain parts of American evangelicalism. There are guidelines to follow in clothing (women and men). I would say some good general principles would be:

1. Women should wear feminine clothing, and men masculine. There is a distinction in that respect.

2. Both should dress modestly at all times in public.

Beyond that there is not a whole lot that the Bible actually says in regards to dress, unless you want to expound somewhat on the modesty, or consider the issue of head-covering.

II. In respect to dancing, this is another area where the legalists have gotten way off base. There are forms of overly sexualised dance that I might consider sinful, but dancing in and of itself is not unbiblical nor ungodly, and can often be done in praise of our Lord and Savior.

III. As long as we're discussing areas of legalistic errors too often made, we might as well throw in drinking. Our Lord Jesus drank all of the time, he turned water into wine for others, in fact such a miracle was His first major miracle. Drinking should always be done in moderation (as should all things), and drunkeness is clearly sinful, but drinking is in no way unbiblical.

Excellent post! I think I've found a new friend. . .

I don't think I've seen you around this forum before--welcome!

mont974x4 · Dec 7, 2006

Good posts folks. Thanks!

I'm looking forward to seeing an opposing view the verses supprting them.

DiscipleOfIAm · Dec 7, 2006

Oh, and public swimming. I forgot that one, too.

I'll post my thoughts later, no time now. Good stuff though!

arunma · Dec 7, 2006

mont974x4 said:
1. Is it biblical for women to wear pants?

I can do one better. I've seen a few girls at my church who dress somewhat goth! I don't mind; it's actually very modest dress, believe it or not. I don't judge people by what they wear, so long as they adhere to Biblical standards of modesty.

mont974x4 said:
2. Is the "no dancing" issue biblical?

I take no issue with dancing either. Yes, some types of dancing are highly sexual. But then, many types of speech and dress are also sexually inappropriate, and we still do not refrain from speaking or wearing clothes.

BereanTodd · Dec 7, 2006

Erinwilcox said:
Excellent post! I think I've found a new friend. . . I don't think I've seen you around this forum before--welcome!

Thank you very much for the kind words!

DiscipleOfIAm said:
Oh, and public swimming. I forgot that one, too.

Really? I've never heard that one before, although with some of the extreme, overly-sexualised suits now days I could at least see the basis on which the argument would be made (not saying I would agree obviously).

Camondw · Dec 7, 2006

I think that there are certain rules and morals in scripture in the bible that were applicable in their day, but may not be now. Dress codes would be a good example. What was the reason behind giving the rules against or toward a certain kind of dress? And, is that still a valid reason to follow the rule. It really all comes down to the condition of the heart.

Also, it is important to remember that as christians we are not held under the letter of the law, but rather under the spirit of the law. Seeing as how Christ fulfilled the letter of the law,

This is just my belief. I would welcome any input from any of you.

Thx

--
Fato Prudentia Major

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Dec 7, 2006

I believe Deuteronomy 22:5 still should be applied today. I just wouldn't push it as far as saying women can't wear pants. Cross dressing on the other hand I would say is still an abomination to God. Also any immodest dress is wrong. It could be a real low neckline on a woman or a guy wearing pants that show half of his boxers. As for swimming these same rules apply. Yes, there are modest swimsuits out there.

As for dancing the Bible is clear that not all dancing is wrong. A lot of club dancing out there is though.

mont974x4 · Dec 7, 2006

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far. As I said earlier, common sense and decency should rule the day. Remember many of these issues are cultural too, how do you think Christians that grew up with nude beaches think?

Still, I can't find anything against dancing of any kind. I'd really like to know the Scripture that "no dancing" stance is based on. I remember when I was kid my older sister went to an Amy Grant concert with a Baptist church (some of her friends from that church invited her altho we attended another church). She was sitting in her chair along with everyone else and she just started kind of be-bopin in her chair. The youth pastor told her friends to not invite her to functions anymore because she was dancing and it was a sin.

LOL She didn't tell my dad until years later, I almost wish I could have seen his reaction if he had found out right after it happened. As it was so much later, Dad just apologized to her and assured her she did nothing wrong.

Andyman_1970 · Dec 7, 2006

RajunCajun86 said:
david danced and i would venture to say that Jesus danced at the wedding where He turned water into wine

He would also dance every time He taught in the synagouge. The teacher for the day would take the Torah scroll out of the "ark" and parade and dance the Torah through the congregation, and the congregation would dance and push and shove to get up to the scroll and kiss the scrolls. It was how they showed how much they loved God the whole Deuteronomy 6 thing.

Tariel · Dec 7, 2006

arunma said:
I can do one better. I've seen a few girls at my church who dress somewhat goth!

wait a sec....what does that have to do with anything? I'm part goth myself, and judging by what I've seen in what I wear myself, and what I've seen from the other girls on campus, goth dress is not only quite modest, but quite feminine. It's the goths and part-goths that are more likely to be wearing skirts, not the highly conservative people on campus.

And as for the whole "no dancing" thing...it really depends. Technically on campus we're not supposed to dance, but that never stops anybody from dancing when they get good grades or even get published. But, if people were dancing sexually, I'm sure that they would get in trouble. Fast.

Andyman_1970 · Dec 7, 2006

Project 86 said:
I believe Deuteronomy 22:5 still should be applied today.

So do you eat shrimp, bacon, or cheesburgers? Do or will you require your wife to take a ritual bath after her period? How about your clothes, do you have any clothing with more than one type of fabric stitched together? And the feasts, do you observe the appointed feasts? What about a Sabbath?

What does Acts 15 say about the matter for Gentiles? (I assume you're a Gentile)

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Dec 7, 2006

Andyman_1970 said:
So do you eat shrimp, bacon, or cheesburgers? Do or will you require your wife to take a ritual bath after her period? How about your clothes, do you have any clothing with more than one type of fabric stitched together? And the feasts, do you observe the appointed feasts? What about a Sabbath?

What does Acts 15 say about the matter for Gentiles? (I assume you're a Gentile)

I'll answer you question if you answer me these. Do you think it is wrong for a guy to dress up as a girl or a girl to dress up as a guy? If so why? Do you think any O.T. rules apply? Or only ones that are mentioned in the N.T.?

Andyman_1970 · Dec 7, 2006

Project 86 said:
I'll answer you question if you answer me these. Do you think it is wrong for a guy to dress up as a girl or a girl to dress up as a guy? If so why? Do you think any O.T. rules apply? Or only ones that are mentioned in the N.T.?

Personal preference I don't prefer womens clothes on a man. With that said there is no Biblical mandate that indicates it is Biblically wrong.

So do you eat shimp, how about bacon, what about your jacket, does it have two different types of fabric sewn together in it? Also, I assume you're a gentile, where does Acts 15 deal with what women wear?

Back to your question, one year for our churches "harvest fest" I dressed up as a woman, while it was pretty humorus, I don't prefer to ever dress that way again, but cannot find a command or passage in the Bible that tells me what I did was a sin. I would argue you can't either.

To argue Deuteromony 22 that women should wear dresses is grossly taking God's Holy Word out of context and misusing it...............not to mention it reeks of the "picking and choosing" out of the Bible. A charge that conservative Christians love to level at those "Godless liberal" Christians.................ah the irony.

I answered your questions it's no your turn.

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Dec 7, 2006

Andyman_1970 said:
Personal preference I don't prefer womens clothes on a man. With that said there is no Biblical mandate that indicates it is Biblically wrong.

So do you eat shimp, how about bacon, what about your jacket, does it have two different types of fabric sewn together in it? Also, I assume you're a gentile, where does Acts 15 deal with what women wear?

Back to your question, one year for our churches "harvest fest" I dressed up as a woman, while it was pretty humorus, I don't prefer to ever dress that way again, but cannot find a command or passage in the Bible that tells me what I did was a sin. I would argue you can't either.

To argue Deuteromony 22 that women should wear dresses is grossly taking God's Holy Word out of context and misusing it...............not to mention it reeks of the "picking and choosing" out of the Bible. A charge that conservative Christians love to level at those "Godless liberal" Christians.................ah the irony.

I answered your questions it's no your turn.

It's no your turn? That means I don't have to answer?

j/k

I don't eat shrimp because I don't care for it. I wouldn't say it is a sin though because I believe God gave the OK to eat other types of food. I don't eat bacon much because it's unhealthy but again I would say it is OK to eat it, in moderation. As for my coat I'm not sure how man types fabrics it has to be honest with you.

That all being said I believe cross dressing is wrong because it takes away the distinctions between male and female gender. Today's society makes it a sin to try to make a distinction. I believe God is never changing. I believe rules can change for various reasons. I believe we are under grace. I also believe though we shouldn't not sin so that grace may abound (Romans 6:1). I believe this is a very difficult topic that takes a lot of looking into. I believe Jesus expanded the law while on Earth here and didn't do away with it just as he said. He told us how this is a heart issue and in effect made the law even harder to follow. He didn't do away with the law but he did fulfill it so that we can make it to Heaven since we will never be good enough to make it there on our own.

no pants for ladies and no dancing?

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