Can Muslims live with Christians in Britain?

InnocentOdion · Nov 19, 2006

Most Moslems in this country are perfectly happy to live with neighbours of different faiths and have no problems integrating.

I agree. Most are. Some aren't. As long as those few who aren't don't increase in number, then that's fine - we need to make sure that we don't give them an excuse to become like that.

The UK becoming a Moslem theocracy is about as probable as the Pope becoming a Jehovah's Witness.

I'm sure the Arab Pagans of Saudi Arabia and Syria thought that in the seventh century. Just because it seems like something which isn't likely to happen right now - it could happen. It might not, it probably won't (in living memory at least), but it may eventually happen.

The problem is not integration. Most young Moslems here are born in the UK, raised in ordinary families and attend normal schools - not hotbeds of Islamic radicalism.

Define ordinary and normal... I went to a small city which I won't name the other week - one section is quite white - the other section is completely Muslim. I didn't see a single non-Muslim, I saw women wearing burqas and men wearing the traditional Islamic gear (the Saudi Type... ghittr is it?)

The problem is that a minority become alienated from mainstream society. This is particularly dangerous when some more suggestible individuals fall under the influence of radical groups who may use mind control techniques to create suicide bombers from ordinary young men and women. The psychological manipulation of cults is a well-known problem, but becomes of much greater magnitude when used by groups intent on political violence.

I totally agree - but what's to stop those people from having lots of kids and raising them up with the alienated hatred that they feel?

These groups represent the real threat to society, but it does not help the situation to bundle them in with all other Moslems indiscriminately. The kind of paranoid attitude expressed in the OP here only serves to deepen social divisions and exacerbate the problem it describes.

I know, I have Muslim friends who're fine with living in Britain and being British. They have Christian friends, they're happy to have them as Christian and not try to convert them and they dislike being bundled in with those extremist Muslims. Some of them will loudly say how much they hate terrorists when they do things, no matter where it is.

non-religious · Nov 19, 2006

[Martin^^]I do not deny that there are sometimes atrocities, such as those you mention, but these are mainly performed by small radical groups who do not represent the majority. Sadly, these are not confined to Moslem-Christian relations, either - in recent British history, most of the anti-Christian violence has been committed by one group of Irish Christians against another.
Most Moslems in this country are perfectly happy to live with neighbours of different faiths and have no problems integrating. The UK becoming a Moslem theocracy is about as probable as the Pope becoming a Jehovah's Witness.
The problem is not integration. Most young Moslems here are born in the UK, raised in ordinary families and attend normal schools - not hotbeds of Islamic radicalism. The problem is that a minority become alienated from mainstream society. This is particularly dangerous when some more suggestible individuals fall under the influence of radical groups who may use mind control techniques to create suicide bombers from ordinary young men and women. The psychological manipulation of cults is a well-known problem, but becomes of much greater magnitude when used by groups intent on political violence.
These groups represent the real threat to society, but it does not help the situation to bundle them in with all other Moslems indiscriminately. The kind of paranoid attitude expressed in the OP here only serves to deepen social divisions and exacerbate the problem it describes.

Another fine post my friend

Strong in Him · Nov 22, 2006

In our town, a small anglican church has just closed - and it was muslims who bought it. This caused a lot of protest, mainly from non church goers and those who live near the church, as they fear the muslims will turn it into a mosque. Actually they're not allowed to do that, but it will/has become a muslim centre of culture. It has already had stones through the windows.

I hope we, in the other churches, can form relationships with the muslims, as a basis for conversation, rather than taking a "we'll convert you" attitude. If the former takes place, and were to be repeated throughout the country, we'd be well on our way to mutual respect and a peaceful co-existence.

non-religious · Nov 22, 2006

[Strong in Him]In our town, a small anglican church has just closed - and it was muslims who bought it. This caused a lot of protest, mainly from non church goers and those who live near the church, as they fear the muslims will turn it into a mosque. Actually they're not allowed to do that, but it will/has become a muslim centre of culture. It has already had stones through the windows.

I hope we, in the other churches, can form relationships with the muslims, as a basis for conversation, rather than taking a "we'll convert you" attitude. If the former takes place, and were to be repeated throughout the country, we'd be well on our way to mutual respect and a peaceful co-existence.

Fairbairn · Nov 24, 2006

Strong in Him said:
In our town, a small anglican church has just closed - and it was muslims who bought it. This caused a lot of protest, mainly from non church goers and those who live near the church, as they fear the muslims will turn it into a mosque. Actually they're not allowed to do that, but it will/has become a muslim centre of culture. It has already had stones through the windows.

The same thing has happened in the town where my son goes to school. There was a small mission church, that had become redundant, which was sold to a local Muslim charity use as an Islamic Education and Cultural Centre.

The parish church and diocese were very optimistic that the sale of this building would be a positive step for the local community, and for inter-faith relations.

There has been vandalism at this location since the sale, but this is something that Christian churches have to put up with all the time. It's just part of the antisocial behaviour that all religious organisations have to deal with in our society, and how we suffer for our faith. We have much in common!

Exonoesis · Nov 25, 2006

"Is it possible for Muslims and Christians to live in harmony?"

No.

Naomi4Christ · Nov 25, 2006

Exonoesis said:
"Is it possible for Muslims and Christians to live in harmony?"

No.

They already do. There is as much harmony between Christians and Muslims as there is between any other two sectors of the community.

If you go to somewhere like Slough, you can see diversity in action - White Brits, Polish, Muslims, Sikhs, all living side by side in harmony.

Exonoesis · Nov 25, 2006

Not for long.

Allister · Nov 25, 2006

i hear all this talk of muslims having to intergrate into the community and be socially responsible etc.

can someone explain what intergration into the community actually means

I dont intergrate with my community but because im white people dont hassle me into it.

Pogue · Nov 25, 2006

Exonoesis said:
Not for long.

Could you back up your assertion with why you think that? I think they can live together peacefully, as I don't think religion alone is enough to divide people. As a Christian, I live in harmony with pretty much everyone I know, including Muslims. If I'm not in harmony with somebody, it's never because of their religion.

Naomi4Christ · Nov 25, 2006

Exonoesis said:
Not for long.

Actually, I think with each new generation, we are getting more integrated and more understanding.

Kas · Nov 29, 2006

bytheway said:
Once the Muslim population reaches 30%-40% they will have alot of power. Will people just leave giving the Muslims a greater majority?

Is it possible for Muslims and Christians to live in harmony?

Would you immigrate away like so many are already doing (as ive heard rumoured)?

When i say Christians i know that most people arent Christians in the Britain but Muslims see all as (maybe they dont...).

I personally don't think we can live in harmony at a global level, so no, I'd say we can't, but christians won't be able to rise to the challenge of Islam until we first throw of the yoke of Liberal Humanism! Only then can we tap intot the full resources of our faith and take the struggle to the Islamic world and communities!

ScottishJohn · Nov 29, 2006

Kas said:
but christians won't be able to rise to the challenge of Islam until we first throw of the yoke of Liberal Humanism!

Christians are not under any yoke.

Romans 8 said:
36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If I understand what you propose it is more akin to becoming the monster than 'defeating' anything.

Exonoesis · Nov 30, 2006

Oh great, let's just tolerate everything.

When the holy war comes whose side are you going to be on?

ScottishJohn · Dec 1, 2006

Exonoesis said:
Oh great, let's just tolerate everything.

When the holy war comes whose side are you going to be on?

As I see it there are five sides. Those Christians who have not read their bibles recently (Luke 8:27-36 Romans 12:14-21 1 Corinthians 4:12-13) and are spoiling for a fight. I will not be on their side. There are those people who claim to be Muslims and embrace violence but who are disowned by the majority of Muslims. I will not be on their side. There are those who do not adhere to either religion even in the nominal sense of the first two groups, but who relish violence and will join in. I will not be on their side. There are those who adhere to other religions or no religion who will not join in on the violence. I will not be on their side. Finally there are those Christians who recognise the message of Christ and his apostles, who realise we are not here to pick fights, to ignore what we have been commanded to do, and make our own 'mission' up, and if it is Gods will that we die at the hands of the nutters who say they are Christian, or the nutters who say they are Muslim, then so be it, but we will not abandon our faith just to get embroiled in a pointless and unholy fight.

non-religious · Dec 1, 2006

[ScottishJohn] Finally there are those Christians who recognise the message of Christ and his apostles, who realise we are not here to pick fights, to ignore what we have been commanded to do, and make our own 'mission' up, and if it is Gods will that we die at the hands of the nutters who say they are Christian, or the nutters who say they are Muslim, then so be it, but we will not abandon our faith just to get embroiled in a pointless and unholy fight.

Amen.......

I'm curious as to why people should choose to align themselves with someone like Christ, yet at the same time convince themselves that preaching hate, fear and loathing towards others is somehow representitive of Christ Himself.

GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta · Jan 4, 2007

Martin^^ said:
From the National Statistics website (which I highly recommend, but I'm a bit funny like that):
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=260

Once all these Polish Catholics reach 50% of the population, will they be able to live peacefully with their Protestant neighbours? Maybe the Protestants will all move to Holland and displace the Moslems?

Most racial conflict happens in areas of social deprivation. If we want to promote harmony, we should fight poverty.

Are you kidding me. You're using left wing rhetoric that is not based in any sense of reality.

Do you honestly want to see Britain become non-British/non-white? Is such ethical? Would it also be ethical to forcibly change a non-white nation to a white nation. Both would be wrong.

You're living in a fantasy world if you think that two different racial groups, let alone two vastly different cultural groups (with Muslims incorporating some of the most extreme individuals) can coexist within a nation without that nation enduring racial, ethnic, religious, and cultural destruction and chaos.

The world doesn't operate on feel good speculation or utopian idealism. It ultimately beats down and destroys these fallacious cultural Marxist lies.

You'll see.

GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta · Jan 4, 2007

Naomi4Christ said:
Actually, I think with each new generation, we are getting more integrated and more understanding.

And how white is the community that you live in?

Martin^^ · Jan 5, 2007

GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta said:
Are you kidding me. You're using left wing rhetoric that is not based in any sense of reality.

Do you honestly want to see Britain become non-British/non-white? Is such ethical? Would it also be ethical to forcibly change a non-white nation to a white nation. Both would be wrong.

You're living in a fantasy world if you think that two different racial groups, let alone two vastly different cultural groups (with Muslims incorporating some of the most extreme individuals) can coexist within a nation without that nation enduring racial, ethnic, religious, and cultural destruction and chaos.

The world doesn't operate on feel good speculation or utopian idealism. It ultimately beats down and destroys these fallacious cultural Marxist lies.

You'll see.

I see you are from Atlanta.
Birthplace of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Would you have worshipped beside him? Or do you feel unable to coexist with Christians of other skin colour?

I was in Atlanta some years back and I can understand how you might have a very different experience of racial tensions than us in the UK. There is much deeper racial division there than in most of the UK.
However the solution is not to deepen that division with segregation and suspicion. It is to develop understanding and tolerance of other cultures. There will always be conflicts and challenges, but they can be overcome sufficiently to allow us to live together if everyone commits to that.
Here in Scotland, most ethnic violence and conflict is between Catholic and Protestant. (Driven by a small and intolerant minority on both sides) How would you approach that problem?

Your post has reminded me that January 15th is Martin Luther King day. I'd like to borrow some of his words to answer you.

From his Nobel Prize acceptance speech:

I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. I believe that what self-centered men have torn down men other-centered can build up. I still believe that one day mankind will bow before the altars of God and be crowned triumphant over war and bloodshed, and nonviolent redemptive good will proclaim the rule of the land. "And the lion and the lamb shall lie down together and every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree and none shall be afraid." I still believe that We Shall overcome!

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1964/king-acceptance.html

GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta · Jan 7, 2007

You are from SCOTLAND: 97% white. You have no perspective from which to talk. You have no experience of a diverse society, unless you lived down in England around London or the Midlands at one time during your life. It'd be like someone from Maine or Iowa or West Virginia here in the United States talking about the joys of diversity, and how well everyone gets along in their neighborhood.

Trust me, I've lived around and interacted with more black people in ONE DAY than you probably have in your entire life, and I can say that with an assurance that I'm correct.

The racial tension that you speak of is real, as it is in ANY diverse place, but it is no more than any other place where the demographics of an area is 30% black, 58% white, 8% "Hispanic", and 4% Asian.

It is usually people from overwhelmingly white areas who have not had any real experience with diversity who promote it the most.

Martin^^ said:
I see you are from Atlanta.
Birthplace of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Would you have worshipped beside him? Or do you feel unable to coexist with Christians of other skin colour?

I was in Atlanta some years back and I can understand how you might have a very different experience of racial tensions than us in the UK. There is much deeper racial division there than in most of the UK.
However the solution is not to deepen that division with segregation and suspicion. It is to develop understanding and tolerance of other cultures. There will always be conflicts and challenges, but they can be overcome sufficiently to allow us to live together if everyone commits to that.
Here in Scotland, most ethnic violence and conflict is between Catholic and Protestant. (Driven by a small and intolerant minority on both sides) How would you approach that problem?

Your post has reminded me that January 15th is Martin Luther King day. I'd like to borrow some of his words to answer you.

From his Nobel Prize acceptance speech:

I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. I believe that what self-centered men have torn down men other-centered can build up. I still believe that one day mankind will bow before the altars of God and be crowned triumphant over war and bloodshed, and nonviolent redemptive good will proclaim the rule of the land. "And the lion and the lamb shall lie down together and every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree and none shall be afraid." I still believe that We Shall overcome!

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1964/king-acceptance.html

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