My contribution to posts posted on page one.
1. s0uljah,
"I know that God = Allah. But I also know Islam denies Jesus = God = Allah."
I hope that you are not asserting by this statement that the God of the Bible and the god of the Qur'an are one and the same?!
The God of the Bible declares: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." (Matt.3:17).
The god of the Qur'an declares: "They say, "The God of mercy hath begotten offspring." Now ye have done a monstrous thing!...That they ascribe a son to the God of mercy, when it beseemeth not the God of mercy to beget a son!" (Sura 19:91,93).
Is God schizophrenic or just plain duplicitous?!
2. Wolseley,
"I take it as a sign of his respect for his Muslim hosts, not that he subscribes to the tenants of Islam.
Remember, when Jesus sent out His 72 disciples, He told them, "Eat whatever food is put in front of you", as a sign of respect to the people they were staying with (Luke 10:8); He did not tell them that they had to eat the same type of food for the rest of their lives."
The reason why Jesus told the 72 to eat whatever was set before them was not for reasons of respect but so that they would not put a stumbling block in the way of their hosts by insisting on keeping kashrut (kosher) or by refusing food because they could not be certain that it was kosher. This was probably for the same reason that Paul opposed Peter publicly because of his duplicity in withdrawing from the Gentile brethren when the Jews came from Jerusalem (Gal.2:11-21).
This is a far cry from embracing the scriptures of a false religion and kissing them as an act of veneration. By doing so, he is effectively legitimising the Islamic religion in the eyes of the world. (I wonder if in similar circumstances he would do the same with the Bhagavad Gita or the scriptures of another religion, the Book of Mormon perhaps?)
3. Raphael,
"would Jesus ever kiss the Koran for "diplomatic reasons"?
i'm just confused about this... it's just.... weird to me...
like, i saw on the news that the Pope refused to meet with the victims of some of the Priests who were accused of sexual assault. i was confused about that too...
can anybody shed some light on this?"
No. Jesus would not kiss the Qur'an for "diplomatic reasons" or any other reasons for that matter (Is.48:11). As the sacred scriptures of a false religion containing doctrines of demons interspersed with truth in order to deceive people, Jesus would probably have had nothing but absolute contempt for it save possibly to quote from it in order to lead people back to the truth that He, and He alone, was their only saviour.
As for the pope declining to see the victims of sexual abuse perpetrated by some of his priests, this is one thing that should be high on his list of priorities to resolve. The Roman Church should have a zero tolerance policy of all forms of sexual abuse within it's ranks (as should every other Christian Church) and should as a matter of course co-operate fully with the civil authorities to investigate any allegations and to prosecute according to the law any person found guilty of sexual abuse, especially of a minor. Any person within the Church, Roman or otherwise (including the pope), who is found to be harbouring or aiding and abetting a perpetrator by covering up for them (in order to save face) by spiriting them away to other churches, diocese, arch-diocese or countries should also be handed over to the civil authorities for investigation and possible prosecution under the law for aiding and abetting a crime. No person is above the law and the life of a human being should never be subjugated to "the good name of the Church".
4. Raphael,
"quote:
Originally posted by Wolseley
I take it as a sign of his respect for his Muslim hosts, not that he subscribes to the tenants of Islam.
Remember, when Jesus sent out His 72 disciples, He told them, "Eat whatever food is put in front of you", as a sign of respect to the people they were staying with (Luke 10:8); He did not tell them that they had to eat the same type of food for the rest of their lives.
well that sorta answers my question...
does the Koran denounce Jesus in any way? or is the lack of faith in Jesus as God just practiced by some Muslims?"
Yes. The Qur'an consistantly denies the divinity of Christ and declares the very idea of God having a son as anathema. Therefore this is accepted as Islamic dogma by all practising muslims regardless of which sub-division of Islam they belong.
5. Wolseley,
"I've read the Qu'ran, and I don't think it denegrates Jesus in any way, but it doesn't portray Him as God or the Son of God."
If the Qur'an categorically denies that Jesus is the eternally begotten Son of God then it denegrates him in the most fundamental way?! (Come on, Wolseley old chap...wake up and pay attention!)
6. NYJ,
"Are you even sure it's the Koran? I just see a big green book."
In view of the fact that in the Islamic world green is the colour of Mohammed (see the national flag of Saudi Arabia - Green background with the words "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." written in Arabic in the middle.) and that he is stood next to someone who appears to be an Arab sheikh then it is highly likely that what the pope is holding is a copy of the Qur'an.
7. Defender of Peter / Didaskomenos
"quote:
Originally posted by Wolseley
I personally think that the Holy Father felt that World Youth Day was not the time or the place to deal with the sex scandal. He had a terribly full schedule to begin with, and let's face it, the man is old, and not well. He probably felt that his first obligation was to the thousands of young people who were there primarily to see him and celebrate the sacraments.
Then when is the "right time." He is to be an example in this dark world. I have been to a world youth day and he always makes time for special cases. If a child has been hurt is it not appropriate that he comfort them. Especially in the US where the scandal is such a big deal. He does not determine his schedual or who sees him most of the time, especially now in his weekend condition.
I also do not see how his being old and not well makes any difference - if it did he would not have come. John Paul II is an example of courage and strength in this world. His example that even when old and ill that life is precious and worth living is simply inspiring.
quote:
Originally posted by DefenderOfPeter
Then when is the "right time." He is to be an example in this dark world. I have been to a world youth day and he always makes time for special cases. If a child has been hurt is it not appropriate that he comfort them. Especially in the US where the scandal is such a big deal. He does not determine his schedual or who sees him most of the time, especially now in his weekend condition.
I also do not see how his being old and not well makes any difference - if it did he would not have come. John Paul II is an example of courage and strength in this world. His example that even when old and ill that life is precious and worth living is simply inspiring.
Wow - your name is suddenly ironic. "
See how these Christians love one another?!
8. s0uljah,
"So why would the Pope kiss the Koran...implying it is ok...?"
Probably because as a human being and a sinner (like the rest of us) he's as lost and groping around in the darkness as all the other's who don't know the truth. (which is evidenced by the fact that he is venerating the Qur'an by kissing it and thereby legitimising it in the eyes of the world?!)
9. Defender of Peter,
"I know that is does not make sense - but even at the cross Christ forgave his murderers - the witness of the martyrs is the same - we are called to be light in this bitter world and if that means that we show forgiveness to those who kill us then that is what it means - I too was a little perplexed by the kiss - but he is the Pope."
With all due respect, there is a massive difference between Christ loving and forgiving those who tortured and murdered Him (especially since they were human beings made in the image of God and people for whom Christ died (1Jn.2:2)) and loving and venerating a book that is nothing more that doctrines of demons (Ps.96:4 Rheims Douay Version) interspersed with the truth in order to deceive people and lead them away from Jesus who, as God, is THE truth, pure and unadulterated. Chloroform in print is how I would describe the Qur'an.
9. s0uljah,
"quote:
Originally posted by DefenderOfPeter
I know that is does not make sense - but even at the cross Christ forgave his murderers - the witness of the martyrs is the same - we are called to be light in this bitter world and if that means that we show forgiveness to those who kill us then that is what it means - I too was a little perplexed by the kiss - but he is the Pope.
I can see that He is forgiving them in a way...
"but he is the Pope"
Does that mean we have to follow whatever he says, does??"
No. it most certainly does not. Especially when he is doing things that are contrary to the faith that he is supposed to be defending. It is one thing to be a pontifex maximus (chief bridge builder) but quite another to compromise on your faith and "sell your soul to the devil" in order to do it?!
10. s0uljah,
quote:
Originally posted by lambslove
But isn't kissing a sign of love? How can the pope love a book that calls for the murders of his own people and denies the very God he serves?
How could Jesus love those that tortured and killed Him?"
With all due respect, there is a massive difference between Christ loving and forgiving "those who tortured and killed Him" (especially since they were human beings made in the image of God and people for whom Christ died (1Jn.2:2)) and loving and venerating a book that is nothing more that doctrines of demons (Ps.96:4 Rheims Douay Version) interspersed with the truth in order to deceive people and lead them away from Jesus who, as God, is THE truth, pure and unadulterated. Chloroform in print is how I would describe the Qur'an.
11. Defender of Peter,
"Like I said above - "I admit - it is troubling to me as well - but I will give him the benifit of the doubt and see what the fruits of his action is."
I have spent my life defending the Holy Father against all sorts of attacks - and this is very troubling - but I will trust that he has good reason - until I have reason to believe different."
Your loyalty and devotion to the Roman Church is commendable but let's be absolutely sure that what we are defending here is the truth and not just another religious system?
12. Didaskomenos,
"quote:
Originally posted by lambslove
The Koran says that Allah has no son and to say Jesus is God's son is a capital offense to most muslims. People in Nigeria and other countries under islamic law can be executed for proclaiming Christ to be God's son!
Well Jews get pretty riled up about that, too - would we also be upset with the Pope for kissing the OT for that reason?"
Ah! But the fundamental difference here is that the state of Israel is a democratic state that allows full religious freedom (they don't execute their heretics!) whereas the sourrounding Islamic states are utterly intolerant of any religion but Islam (save for the "token" religious communities which will doubtless be in subjugation to the predominant Islamic religion?!) The very idea of democracy is anathema to Islam.
Apart from which, In view of the fact that Christians and Jews share not only the same God (the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob) but also the same scriptures (the Old Testament) even though the Jews may worship God in a different way to the Christians (and here I do not mean one by faith and the other by "Law" without faith) I fail to see how it would cause any controversy whatsoever between Christians and Jews if the pope were to venerate the Old Testament Scriptures?!
13. Didaskomenos,
"# 2: The Pope said nothing about loving the book. It was a chance for him to express his love of the Muslim *people* symbolically. I think it was obviously easier to do that than to kiss all the Muslims of the world..."
I'm sure that that's not the only way that the pope could have found to symbolically express his love for the Islamic world?
All it serves is to further alienate himself and His Church from those Christians who hold to the truth of the Judeo-Christian faith and the exclusivity of Christ's claims.
14. Auntie Belle Um,
"I think what the Pope meant for good, Satan is trying to use for evil. But God has the last word, and He will use this picture for good, the scriptures promise that."
And where exactly do the Scriptures promise that God will use this particular picture for good?!
I don't doubt that the pope intended his actions for good but I think his actions were ill thought through and the negative repercussions may well outweigh any good repercussions that he was intending?!
Simonline.
