Abortion OK for a raped girl of 11? Nah.

carrymeaway06 said:

WOAH!!! You do NOT hold a baby responsible for the actions of another. Rape or no. NEVER say that because it's sexual sin to rape the baby must be destroyed. That's a load of crap.

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It's a load of crap to expect an eleven- year -old, rape victim, to carry a fetus to term in a third world country.

carrymeaway06 said:

WOAH!!! You do NOT hold a baby responsible for the actions of another. Rape or no. NEVER say that because it's sexual sin to rape the baby must be destroyed. That's a load of crap.

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The sacredness of her body was violated; it was not God-modelled love. Therefore nothing good can come of it.

Are girls bodies different nowadays? I couldn't get pregnant til 13.
That said, no 11 year old should be forced to carry a baby what with the hormones and their effects.
Yes, I would support "murdering" the innocent baby, just as in war, innocent people in the other country are murdered also.
Why are men even answering this? They have no idea what its like to BE pregnant.

HowardDean said:

Why are men even answering this? They have no idea what its like to BE pregnant.

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Neither do male obstetricians--- they have to rely on what they're taught, rather than personal experience. Likewise, not having a womb doesn't prevent me from discerning Biblical principles, and knowing that two wrongs don't make a right.

churchrat said:

Neither do male obstetricians--- they have to rely on what they're taught, rather than personal experience. Likewise, not having a womb doesn't prevent me from discerning Biblical principles, and knowing that two wrongs don't make a right.

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I agree. This is as much an issue for men to be involved in as anybody. I WANT to hear the outside view. From fathers, brothers and so on.

carrymeaway06 said:

WOAH!!! You do NOT hold a baby responsible for the actions of another. Rape or no. NEVER say that because it's sexual sin to rape the baby must be destroyed. That's a load of crap.

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Exonoesis said:

...it was not God-modelled love. Therefore nothing good can come of it.

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One might also say that nothing good can come of being sold into slavery by your brothers, or having one of your best friends betray you to the Roman government for crucifixion. But...

"...We know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." - Romans 8:28

3.5 Controversial Topics to Be Discussed Only in Certain Forums

A. You will not post content regarding the following subjects anywhere on CF except in Ethics & Morality, Liberal Theology, Christian Philosophy, or any subforums in the Congregation or Recovery* categories:

drug use
gambling
polygamy
extramarital or premarital sexual activity
homosexuality
transsexuality
abortion

Moving thread to Christian Philosophy & Ethics and will leave a re-direct for this discussion to continue.

Peace
GIH

Everything Happens For a Reason (anyone watch lost??? ) ... But yeah, I totally believe that.

carrymeaway06 said:

Everything Happens For a Reason (anyone watch lost??? ) ... But yeah, I totally believe that.

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The problem with this type of statement is determining what is included in "everything" (is the abortion part of everything?)

This entire discussion puts me in mind of an excellent little satire by Phillip Roth, Our Gang. In that book, a character patterned on Richard Nixon comes out in favor of the rights of the unborn. He then has a discussion with a voter who agrees wholeheartedly with the president's support of the unborn. However, the voter is concerned about the ramifications of unborn rights in the then-recent Mi Lai masaacre (where US soldiers slaughtered a bunch of civilians). The voter is concerned that it is possible that one of the slaughtered civilians was pregnant, and that the soldiers might therefore have inadvertently performed an abortion. The voter and Ticky Dick have an extended discussion about the morality of that scenario.

Bottom line: people can be oddly preferential about the supposed rights of the unborn.

HowardDean said:

Are girls bodies different nowadays? I couldn't get pregnant til 13.
That said, no 11 year old should be forced to carry a baby what with the hormones and their effects.
Yes, I would support "murdering" the innocent baby, just as in war, innocent people in the other country are murdered also.
Why are men even answering this? They have no idea what its like to BE pregnant.

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Killing a baby just because someone did something horrible to you is like someone punching you in the face for no reason and as a result you kill someone because you feel you have the 'right' to kill someone since someone did something to you that you didn't like.

Plus, a guy may not know what it's like to carry a child, but you don't need to know that to know if murder and killing is right or wrong.

I can't image how "safe" it would be to carry a large baby when one is a child. Not to mention the extreme pain of labor, nor the ripping when the child comes out (I needed 150 stitches!).
Sortof like punishing her for 9 months.

that is a terrible situation to be in, I hope the girl is doing ok. Children having children is bad...but children killing children is much worse IMO. I just don't understand why these things happen, but the baby is with God now and is much better off, I just hope this family can find peace, I know they're troubled over the rape and probably the abortion too...

manchambo said:

that the soldiers might therefore have inadvertently performed an abortion. The voter and Ticky Dick have an extended discussion about the morality of that scenario.

Bottom line: people can be oddly preferential about the supposed rights of the unborn.

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there is OT precedent though I don't remember the exact law But there is at least one verse speaking about accidentally causing an abortion .

I can try and dig it up, But I figure someone will beat me to it.

We do need to calm things down , people are getting "snippy" to put it lightly, And I suspect this thread will be locked, if hostilities arent forgiven.

I have heard of children as young as 8 giving birth. (not that I think it is a good idea) But apparently it is possible.

I see a lot of emotional, responces, but few based in scripture.

There are several cases of scripture speaking of unborn children, as just that children.

I speak from a christian perspective, not a political, or civil rights.
But biblically speaking, I just dont see it justified. Both pharoah, and Herod, had children murderd. There are verses in the psalms, the Gospels, and several other places throught scripture, emotionalize it all you want, but scripturaly do you see any justification?

chris777 said:

We do need to calm things down , people are getting "snippy" to put it lightly, And I suspect this thread will be locked, if hostilities arent forgiven.

I have heard of children as young as 8 giving birth. (not that I think it is a good idea) But apparently it is possible.

I see a lot of emotional, responces, but few based in scripture.

There are several cases of scripture speaking of unborn children, as just that children.

I speak from a christian perspective, not a political, or civil rights.
But biblically speaking, I just dont see it justified. Both pharoah, and Herod, had children murderd. There are verses in the psalms, the Gospels, and several other places throught scripture, emotionalize it all you want, but scripturaly do you see any justification?

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Please identify the scriptures that address the personhood or not of an 8 week fetus.

manchambo said:

The problem with this type of statement is determining what is included in "everything" (is the abortion part of everything?)

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Unfortunately, yes, I believe even the bad things are worked together for good. I've experienced it numerous times in my own life. Even abortion. That doesn't mean we don't try and stop the bad things. Because I lose my house, I'm able to see things from a "unmaterialistic" point of view, and, trusting God, I'm than able to find a place that is better for me. If I lose a brother, though it's a bad thing, I'm able to talk to people who understand what I'm going through. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop murder or try and stop people from being kicked out of their homes needlessly.

Just because someone has an abortion, doesn't mean the bad can't be turned into good.

And to whomever it was who said that nothing good can come of rape... I know this little girl. A beautiful child with an amazing sense of giving and selflessness who was the product of her mother being raped as a young teen. She kept the baby and now she's quite happy she did so.

manchambo said:

Please identify the scriptures that address the personhood or not of an 8 week fetus.

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Exo 21:22 If men strive and strike a pregnant woman, so that her child comes out, and there is no injury, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him. And he shall pay as the judges say
Exo 21:23 And if any injury occurs, then you shall give life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

(Notice the word pregant and child)

jad123 said:

Exo 21:22 If men strive and strike a pregnant woman, so that her child comes out, and there is no injury, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him. And he shall pay as the judges say
Exo 21:23 And if any injury occurs, then you shall give life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

(Notice the word pregant and child)

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A few things about this verse:

First, it says child, not fetus.

Second, the fact that includes the statement "and there is no injury" clearly indicates that it is not talking about a non-viable fetus--there is no possibility of a non-viable fetus coming out and it not dying.