Propserity Gospel, Freemasonry, and Denials of Christian Teaching

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sola fide

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We need to also look at the aspects of heresy they are teaching. These guys are all over television. Any new believer can fall into their false teachings, I did once upon a time. John Hagee was once my "favorite" preacher. I even got to meet him, I still have a picture of me and him on my wall. But I failed to realize that while he was giving me the "prosperity gospel", he was also "edifying" me with "millenial gap" , and dual-covenant theology. I still think Hagee is a very charming and well spoken orator...but he is not even a decent expounder of Scripture. The prosperity gospel is the hook that catches fish, then anyone who listens to these prosperity teachers is subject to their other false doctrines.

Soli Deo gloria!
 
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Andrew

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Quaffie,

I dont know how true this is but my Pastor shared one time recently in his sermons that K Copeland walks in love in the sense that he never as far as possible hits back at his critics. and he has many who has even written books to tell him to go to hell. So he was saying that there was this guy who kept coming fiercely against KC, for years. KC just ignored him and carried on doing what God had called him to do. One day, while that critic was jogging, he just dropped dead. I'm not saying God did it, but if you keep on hitting out at a man of God, you're just opening a big door to Satan. :)

I subscribed to their mag Believer's Voice of Victory, and am encourage by a lot of missionary work that their ministry is helping to sponsor. Praise the Lord for them!
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Like I said, let's take one of your writings, and quote only a part of a sentence out of the middle of a paragraph, somewhere from the middle of the writing and see if people clearly comprehend what your talking about.

I'm not promoting faith teachers. I'm promoting Jesus. I'm promoting His Word, His Whole Word. Not just part of the Word.

Unlike you and others on this thread, I don't think that 1 scriptures nullifies another one. If it's written even once, it means something. Like, how many times do you expect to say something to your children before they know that you meant it? If you say it only once, does that mean that it's not to be believed?

I work for a publishing company and one of the things we publish  is curriculum for improving comprehension skills. I believe some of you need to get those books.

Unless of course, you believe that it's God's will to mock and ridicule your fellow brethren for lack of comprehension.
 
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VOW

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To Quaffer:

I read over everything Poly posted from Copeland's works. If these are indeed speeches from Copeland, it really doesn't matter WHAT context the words were in. This is BLASPHEMY at its finest.

I agree, context is everything. But there are some words which can be expressive outside of context. And frankly, I don't know of ANY CONTEXT which could nullify what Poly has posted. If you have more complete quotes, I'd be interested in seeing them.

From what I read, Copeland sounds an awful lot like a Mormon.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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SavedByGrace3

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How can anyone hold any of these statments and be Christian is beyond me.

Please choose one and explain why it would prevent one from being a Christian...

I am curious.

thanks
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by VOW
To Quaffer:

I read over everything Poly posted from Copeland's works. If these are indeed speeches from Copeland, it really doesn't matter WHAT context the words were in. This is BLASPHEMY at its finest.

I agree, context is everything. But there are some words which can be expressive outside of context. And frankly, I don't know of ANY CONTEXT which could nullify what Poly has posted. If you have more complete quotes, I'd be interested in seeing them.

From what I read, Copeland sounds an awful lot like a Mormon.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

From the limited words that were posted, I would say you were right.  I'm sorry, that I do not have the complete quotes but I know from what little I have listened to Copeland that he was quoted out of context.  Even with those limited quotes I was able to understand what he meant.  But someone who who does not know Copeland, they would take it a totally different way.  Even Jesus was accused of saying/doing things He was not doing.

If people don't want to listen, then they don't have to.  But to go out and say that someone teaches something that they do not is wrong.  Even on this site, there are people who choose to twist my words no matter how many times I rephrase it.  How sad.

One thing I've noticed in most if not all of the faith teachers is the quality of their family life.  There children are always beside them.  They lay hands on the sick too and pray.  Even into adult-hood, the family is together.  They preach Jesus, and Him crusified, and raised from the dead.

All I notice from those who are against is broken families, with a lot of bitter feuding.  And what I hear preached is how wrong that guy is and how wrong this person is.  Does'nt that speak volumes?

Anyway, I desire to serve God with my whole heart.  I want to follow all of what He says to the best of my ability. Not just some of what He says.
 
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VOW

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To Hobart:

Jesus was reborn in the pits of hell.(What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303) and (Classic Redemption, p.13)

Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell (Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition Bible, 1991, p129)

and:

And Adam was as much like God as you can get, Just the same as Jesus when He came into the earth, He said If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. He wasn’t a lot like God - He's God manifested in the flesh. And I want you to know something - Adam in the garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh.


I got problems with those being "Christian Teachings."


Peace,
~VOW
 
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Andrew

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quote:"All I notice from those who are against is broken families, with a lot of bitter feuding._ And what I hear preached is how wrong that guy is and how wrong this person is._ Does'nt that speak volumes?"

yeah Quaffie it does. God has given us a ministry of reconciliation, not condemnation. BTW aint no such ministry as "heresy hunting" or ministry office as "heresy hunter". And if it didnt come from God, I wonder who?
----------
Now, one of the things faith preachers have been accused of is saying that we are like little gods. So here's the explanation:

Are we little gods?

Word of faith preachers who teach that Christians are "little gods" have gotten plenty of flak for it. But what does the Bible say?

Man was made a little lower than God

Psalms 8:5 -- You made him a little lower than God and crowned him with glory and honor.


Most Bibles translate this verse as "a little lower than the angels". But the Hebrew word here for "angels" is actually "elohiym" or "God".

The Psalmist goes on to say in verses 6-8: "You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas."

The passage is obviously talking about Adam, the first man created directly by God (verse 5: You made him…). The preceding context of creation also supports this (verse 3: When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place).

So, Adam was like a little god (of course, he was not God!), until he sinned and forfeited his authority over to Satan.

Adam was given great authority

Genesis 1:28-30 -- God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.


It sure looks like Adam was like a little god over the earth.

You are gods

Believe it or not, the Bible does say that of believers!

Psalms 82:6 -- "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Again, the Hebrew word here for "gods" is "elohiym" or "God".

Are Christians "sons of the Most High" or children of God? Yes, so it follows that we are also "gods" (small "g", of course) according to this verse.

In the New Testament, Jesus himself quoted this verse when the Jews wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God.

John 10:34-36 -- Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

It's not very different today -- there are Christians who want to "stone" other Christians for claiming to be gods! The latter are simply honouring what Christ has done for them.

A better covenant

So far, we have only looked at the Old Testament. Christians are now under a superior New Covenant (Romans 5:15-19). This means that Christians have it better than Adam, that is, they are in a better position today than Adam.

How so? Adam was not seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus, but Christians are!

Ephesians 2:6 -- And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

So, if Adam was like a little god before he fell, and if Christians today are in a better position than him, doesn’t that make them "little gods"?

King-priests

But if Christians find it hard to swallow this, they should at least believe that they are a king-priest in Christ Jesus, and start living like one!

1 Peter 2:9 -- But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
 
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VOW

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To Andrew:

I have a bit of a problem with your definition of "a little lower than God" being "little God."

God is GOD. You are either divine, or you are not. Trying to define a mortal as a "little God" is absurd, to me. If you pour a layer of oil on top of water, you can say the water is a little lower than the oil. But that won't make the water an oil. You have two entirely different substances, with entirely different characteristics. Placing them side by side and saying, they are both wet, they are both clear, AHA, they are the same, is not possible.



Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by Andrew
Quaffie,

I dont know how true this is but my Pastor shared one time recently in his sermons that K Copeland walks in love in the sense that he never as far as possible hits back at his critics. and he has many who has even written books to tell him to go to hell. So he was saying that there was this guy who kept coming fiercely against KC, for years. KC just ignored him and carried on doing what God had called him to do. One day, while that critic was jogging, he just dropped dead. I'm not saying God did it, but if you keep on hitting out at a man of God, you're just opening a big door to Satan. :)

I subscribed to their mag Believer's Voice of Victory, and am encourage by a lot of missionary work that their ministry is helping to sponsor. Praise the Lord for them!

Thanks Andrew,

God say's not to touch His anointed so I would not be surprised that God would remove His covering so the person could be corrected.

I subscribe to KC's magazine too.  I must admit I don't always read it right away but when I do I'm always blessed.  It was also part of helping me understand the things that I was confused over.  I had a lot questions like other people on this site and I thank God that I've learned to ask questions before writing off what someone teaches as false before I've adequately heard it.  :D

Jesse Duplantis and Jerry Seville have magazines that are good too.  They send them for free, just like Kenneth Copeland.

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Hi Vov, you wrote:
To Hobart:

Jesus was reborn in the pits of hell.(What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303) and (Classic Redemption, p.13)

Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell (Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition Bible, 1991, p129)

AND

And Adam was as much like God as you can get, Just the same as Jesus when He came into the earth, He said If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. He wasn’t a lot like God - He's God manifested in the flesh. And I want you to know something - Adam in the garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh.

I got problems with those being "Christian Teachings."
 

"...Jesus was reborn in the pits of hell..."

Many people have trouble with this. When I first heard it many years ago I did. Once I studied what the word actually says, then I discovered that this is in fact the truth. There is ample proof.

Jesus had to be  "born again" because of another truth that many overlook: He took on Himself the sins or the world and the fallen nature of Adam(or spiritual death) while on the cross.

The faith movement has a teaching called "identification". This teaching says that Jesus did much more than simply take our punishment. It says that He became one with us spiritually. We became one in the same way we were one with Adam.
When we talk about being spiritually dead, we are saying we had the same dead spirit nature that Adam received in the garden.
When we talk about being baptized into Christ, we are saying that we partake of the same death and resurrection Jesus did. Because He became one with us in spirit, when God raised Him from spiritual death, we were raised up together with Him. He is the head, we are the body. When God raised up Christ, He raised up the body with the head. (After God raised up Jesus from spiritual death, He also raised up His physical body (This will happen to us one day too!).


(cont)
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Consider these verses which detail this work of Christ:

Rom 6
3  Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into union with Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4  Therefore, through baptism we were buried with him into his death so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glory, we too may live an entirely new life.
 



This is talking about being baptized into the death, and resurrection of the spirit of Christ, and our identification with it. Since we believed into Him, we partook of the same death and resurrection. He is not talking about the resurrection of the body here(though he certainly does in other places). He is talking about the spirit and our union with it. He says that because we were raised up from spiritual death with Christ, we now have a divine nature and can now walk according to that new life within us.
1Peter 1:3-4 states it perfectly:

3  seeing that His divine power has given us all things that are needful for life and godliness, through our knowledge of Him who has appealed to us by His own glorious perfections.
4  It is by means of these that He has granted us His precious and wondrous promises, in order that through them you may, one and all, become sharers in the very nature of God, having completely escaped the corruption which exists in the world through earthly cravings.
 




Col 2:
12  being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead.
13  And you, being dead in the sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the sins,


This is talking about spirit sin, spiritual death, and spiritual resurrection. When we believed into Christ, we believed into his spiritual death, and therefore we also partake of His spiritual resurrection. When God raised up the spirit of Jesus, we came up with Him. We could not have been raised up with Him if He were not with us and we with Him in spiritual death!


(YLT)  for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him.


Nothing could be clearer than this verse!Jesus literally became sin with our sin. And that sin brought our spiritual death to him. He did this knowing that when God raised Him from that resulting spiritual death, we would be raised with Him. When we were raised from sin with Him, we were raised up with His righteousness, that is the divine nature mentioned by Peter above. This is why we are made the righteousness of God in Christ. Not symbolically... in reality! We are righteous with the life of Christ because we are literally made of the same spirit as He is. We were raised together with Him. He is the head, we are the body.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Look at the effects of Christ's spiritual death with us:
Isa 53:
9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.


The Hebrew word for death in this verse is plural: Deaths. Christ died twice on the cross. Once as a result of becoming sin for us, which was spiritual death.

Then as a result of that sin and the effects of that sin in His body, which was physical death. It is interesting that the spiritual death of Adam is also described as two deaths. One physical and one spiritual. Look at Gen 2:17 in two literal versions:
(LITV)  but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die. 
(YLT)  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
As Clark says in his commentary:
"...Thou shalt not only die spiritually, by losing the life of God, but from that moment thou shalt become mortal, and shalt continue in a dying state till thou die..."


How does God regard those who are sin and who are spiritually dead?

Mat 27:
46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


God turned from Jesus when He was made sin for us. This of course is a direct quote from the 22nd psalm which is universally accepted to be a prophectic description of Christ in His passion on the cross. Look at what else the 22nd psalm says:
2  O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but I have no rest.
6  But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people.
14  I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.


This is not a description of a the Christ we know in the gospels. It is a description of a spiritually dead being. We looked at Romans 6:3-4 above. If we understand that we are one with the spirit of Jesus on the cross, then we can see the meaning of these verses. Our spirit was with Him in that death. Since that old death Adam spirit passed away at the cross, we are now alive in Him, with His spirit, His nature, and His righteousness. We are now as one with Him as we were one with the devil.


Gal 3:
26  for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.


Again we see that phrase "baptized into Christ". This means that we were baptized into Him by the new birth. We we raised up together with Him when God raised Him up. We are called to "put on Christ" because that is who we have inside of us. There is no longer and dead Adam spirit in there. He is simply saying to put on the outside that which you have inside: Christ.

The next passage is very illuminating when you read it with this understanding.
In Ephesians 2, Paul first details our previous fallen nature as children of the devil:
Eph 2:
1  Also you--being dead in the  trespasses and the sins,
2  in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
3  among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath--as also the others,


He then details our resurrection into live with Jesus:


4  But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us
5  even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6  raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly realm in Christ Jesus,


The truth that one has to see here is this:
For God to make us spiritually alive together with Christ...  Christ had to be spiritually dead with us to start with. Two cannot raise up together unless both are dead. This is why we teach that Jesus died spiritually, and why we say He was "born again."  It was the resurrection that gave us the new birth:
1Peter
(NASB)  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 
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SavedByGrace3

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Act 2:
26  For this reason My heart rejoiced, and My tongue was glad; and My flesh also will dwell on hope,
27  because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.


Psalm 88 is considered by many to be a picture of Christ in His spiritual agony apart from God the Father:
Psa 88:

1  A Song. A Psalm for the Sons of Korah, to the chief musician on Mahalath, to make humble. A Poem of Heman the Ezrahite. O Jehovah God of my salvation, I have cried in the day, in the night before You.
2  Let my prayer come before You; bow down Your ear to my cry.
3  For my soul is full with evils, and my life touches Sheol.
4  I am counted with those who go down to the Pit; I have been like a feeble man,
5  free among the dead, as pierced ones lying in the grave, whom You remember no more; yea by Your hand they are cut off.
6  You have laid me in the lowest pit, in dark places, in the deeps.
7  Your fury has lain hard upon me, and You afflict me with all Your waves. Selah.
8  You have taken ones knowing me away from me; You have made me a hateful thing to them; I am shut up, I will not go out.
9  My eye mourns because of affliction; O Jehovah, I have called on You every day; I have spread out my hands to You.
10  For will You do wonders for those dying? Or shall the departed spirits rise and thank You? Selah.
11  Shall Your mercy be declared in the grave, Your faithfulness amidst ruin?
12  Shall Your wonders be known in the dark, and Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
13  But to You I have cried, O Jehovah; and in the morning my prayer shall go before You.
14  O Jehovah, why do You cast off my soul; why do You hide Your face from me?
15  I am afflicted and dying from childhood; I suffer Your terrors; I am distracted.
16  Your fierce wrath goes over me; Your terrors have cut me off.
17  They surrounded me like waters all the day; they have come together around me.
18  You have taken lover and friend far from me, he who knows me, into darkness.


MHCC
...Probably the psalmist described his own case, yet he leads to Christ. Thus are we called to look unto Jesus, wounded and bruised for our iniquities. But the wrath of God poured the greatest bitterness into his cup. This weighed him down into darkness and the deep.
 
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Hobart,

There are four different words (one hebrew, three greek) that surround the afterlife.

Hebrew- Sheol (abode of the dead)
Greek - Hades (abode of the dead)
Gehennah (hell-fire)
Tardaras (the place in hell reserved for Satan and his apostate angels)

Sheol is often called Prison.

After Jesus died, he went to preach to the souls in prison. That is established by 1 Peter 3: 18-22.

The greek and hebrew is translated in the OT as Hell for the most part in the language of King James.

Jesus soul was not allowed to languish in hell, hades, the pit, or sheol. . .he was raised again on the third day. . but he was a busy guy during those three days. He did a lot of preaching.

thanks be to God!

Fr. Rob
 
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VOW

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To Hobart:

I was able to follow your reasoning about Jesus being reborn.

But what about:
And I want you to know something - Adam in the garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh.

What do you have on that?


Peace,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by hobart schmedly
3  seeing that His divine power has given us all things that are needful for life and godliness, through our knowledge of Him who has appealed to us by His own glorious perfections.
4  It is by means of these that He has granted us His precious and wondrous promises, in order that through them you may, one and all, become sharers in the very nature of God, having completely escaped the corruption which exists in the world through earthly cravings.[/color]  [/size]


Not sure what translation you are using, but in all the translations I have checked out, the word in verse four is NOT sharer, it is partaker.  To share means to be given an equal portion.  To partake means to receive and be nourished by what is given to you.  I don't have my Greek NT handy, but I will review it next week when I get it back.

At any rate, Peter says we are Partakers of the divine nature.  We partake of that divine nature by God's grace through our Communion with Christ. 

We do not come to a full consumation of the transfigured life until after the general resurrection.

What we have is a foretaste of what is to come.

The scriptures, in many places, teach the necessity of suffering for our own good. . . and by the example of Christ, show us grace in suffering.

God give us all the grace to persevere when the lights are low and the curtain begins to close.

Blessings,

Fr. Rob
 
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