Tithing v. Being "Redeemed By the Curse"

TheMatmanReturns · Nov 19, 2006

If we are redeemed from the curse of the law, as so many charismatics like to preach.........

Then why do so many charismatics teach that if you do not tithe, you will be cursed?

JimfromOhio · Nov 19, 2006

Tithe is law. We are under grace..... grace and curse do not get along together.

In the New Testament, we see the words "give" or "giving" or "cheerful giver" because they are related to grace. (see Mark 12:41-44, Romans 12:8).

seekthetruth909 · Nov 19, 2006

TheMatmanReturns said:
If we are redeemed from the curse of the law, as so many charismatics like to preach.........

Then why do so many charismatics teach that if you do not tithe, you will be cursed?

I did a bible study with my group on tithing last year and I put together some scipture and notes on the subject.

God Bless

THE THREE MAIN ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT OF TITHING.

1. Tithing was a pre- Mosaic Law because Abraham tithed.
Was Abraham commanded by God to tithe? Did Abraham tithe only one time? Did Abraham tithe his personal property or just the spoils of war? Read Gen 14:20, Hebrews 7:3-5 If we follow all the examples of Abraham should we also practice polygamy, give burnt offerings and practice circumcision? Did Abraham teach his children to always tithe? If Abraham taught his children to tithe why did Jacob make a proposal to God?
He would tithe only if God would bless him first with good fortune. Read Gen 28:22

2. Jesus told the Pharisees to continue to tithe their spices.
Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Jesus also told the leper he cured to offer burnt offerings as Mosaic Law commanded.

Luke 5:14 Then Jesus ordered him, “Don't tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Exodus 10:25, 20:24

Why do no Christian churches today offer burnt offerings as sacrifices?

Why did Jesus on these two occasions recommend keeping Mosaic Law?
Was it because the leper and the Pharisees were still under Mosaic Law until the crucifixion of Christ? Galatians 4:4

Was the life of Jesus the fulfillment of The Law and his dying on the cross the abolishment of The Law? Colossians 2 16 Are we now under the new covenant of Grace? Romans 6:14 Ephesians 2:8

Galatians 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,”

3. Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Written before the crucifixion of Christ]
If the law has not been abolished should we still practice all 603 Old Testament laws including tithing? What does the word “fulfill” imply in this context? Consider Ephesians 2:15 [written after the crucifixion of Christ] “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.”
Matthew 5:17 and Ephesians 2:15 seem to contradict each other so we must search more scripture for clarification. Consider the following passages:

Galatians 3:25 “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Galatians 3:23 “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.”

Galatians 3:11 “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” [ Heb. 2:4]

Hebrews 8:7 “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”

Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 3:2 “ I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?”

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).

Galatians 5:3 “Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.”

Galatians 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Romans 7:2-4 “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

What do the previous passages imply in regards to the Old Covenant laws?
If we follow one law are we then obligated to follow all the law?
Has the death and resurrection of Christ abolished all Old Testament commandments and regulations?

Additional notes

Even Jewish Rabbis who follow the old covenant today refuse to collect tithes. Why? Only direct descendants of Levites are permitted to collect tithes according to the law and the temple in Jerusalem with all the genealogy records was destroyed. Hebrews 7: 5 Deuteronomy 18:1, 26:12

Who are the new priests of Christ and where is his temple?

1 Peter 2:5 “you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 2:9

1 Corinthians 6:19
19 “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;”
There are more Old Testament scriptures on tithing implying that there are three tithes resembling a taxation system, [Deut. 14 26-29] and that tithes are to be eaten, [Deut.14: 22-26]. Do any modern tithing churches eat their tithes?

Note: In relation to Deut14: 22-26. Some churches claim food was tithed because Israel was an agricultural society and there was no money to tithe. Is this true?
Genesis 17:12
“For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.”

New testament instructions on giving.

2 Cor 9:7-10 “Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

2 Cor 8:13-15 “ I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written, "The one who had much did not have too much, and the one who had little did not have too little."

1 Corinthians 16
The Collection for God's People
1 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.
James 1:27 “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
Galatians 5: 4 “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”

Note : Please read all scriptures quoted here in their complete context to have a better understanding of God’s word .

seekthetruth909 · Nov 19, 2006

TheMatmanReturns said:
If we are redeemed from the curse of the law, as so many charismatics like to preach.........

Then why do so many charismatics teach that if you do not tithe, you will be cursed?

The attitude of pro tithing charismatic churches seems to be that we are to be led by The Holy Spirit in all matters except our ability to give. This implies that when it comes to giving the Spirit does not have the power to move us and instead we must revert to the law.

God Bless

CrazyforYeshua · Nov 19, 2006

Yeshua said He came to fulfill the law-not abolish it. He came to obtain our salvation thru His blood, not by works.
The 10 commandments are not abolished because He came, they were given to us to show us our need of a Saviour. We follow them out of love for God, and fellow man, the first 4 being against God, the last 6 being against other people.
Having said that, seeing as how the Law was not abolished, only fulfilled in Yeshua, there is nothing in scripture that says we are not to support the church, and I do believe we are to do that. I think the problem comes in when people refer to it as a "tithe", and others start the "we are not under the law" speech.
God provides thru His people, and that means for the church, as well.

lismore · Nov 19, 2006

The tithe has got nothing to do with the church in its original sense. Its a festival in Jerusalem (three days after passover I think) where you eat the first fruits:

Deuteronomy 12:11-13 Then to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name-there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the LORD. And there rejoice before the LORD your God, you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns, who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please.

Deuteronomy 12:17 You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts.

Deuteronomy 14:22 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name

The dwelling place for God's name forever is Jerusalem as God himself said:

2 Chronicles 33:4 NIV
"My Name will remain in Jerusalem forever."

The prophet Malachi speaks of the blessing received when we tithe but notice it does not mention money:

Malachi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

This theme of a blessing through obedience to God's command to come to Jerusalem is found elsewhere:

Zechariah 14:17
If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain.

Jeremiah 31:12
They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion; they will rejoice in the bounty of the LORD the grain, the new wine and the oil, the young of the flocks and herds. They will be like a well-watered garden, and they will sorrow no more.

Even when Abraham tithed he gave foodstuffs to the High priest of Salem (Jerusalem)..................its a festival in Jerusalem.

If you look up these early teachers: Origen, Ambrose of Milan, John Chrysostom, And Augustine. They started to teach that the church had replaced Jerusalem and that all promises God has made to Israel and all references to an Everlasting Covenant with Israel should not be taken literally. They also started the tradition of tithing to the church.

:wave:

msbojingles · Nov 19, 2006

TheMatmanReturns said:
If we are redeemed from the curse of the law, as so many charismatics like to preach.........

Then why do so many charismatics teach that if you do not tithe, you will be cursed?

interesting question.

I'd also like to know why the vast majority of (christian ~ even the most devout who do not "receive" the curse) women still feel pain in child birth ~ since that is part of the curse.

Inquiring minds want to know.

seekthetruth909 · Nov 19, 2006

CrazyforYeshua said:
Yeshua said He came to fulfill the law-not abolish it. He came to obtain our salvation thru His blood, not by works.
The 10 commandments are not abolished because He came, they were given to us to show us our need of a Saviour. We follow them out of love for God, and fellow man, the first 4 being against God, the last 6 being against other people.
Having said that, seeing as how the Law was not abolished, only fulfilled in Yeshua, there is nothing in scripture that says we are not to support the church, and I do believe we are to do that. I think the problem comes in when people refer to it as a "tithe", and others start the "we are not under the law" speech.
God provides thru His people, and that means for the church, as well.

Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [Written before the crucifixion of Christ]
If the law has not been abolished should we still practice all 603 Old Testament laws including tithing? What does the word fulfill imply in this context? Consider Ephesians 2:15 [written after the crucifixion of Christ] By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.
Matthew 5:17 and Ephesians 2:15 seem to contradict each other so we must search more scripture for clarification. Consider the following passages:

Galatians 3:25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantnot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Galatians 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Galatians 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, The righteous will live by faith. [ Heb. 2:4]

Hebrews 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them (although the law required them to be made).

Galatians 5:3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.

Romans 7:2-4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

What do the previous passages imply in regards to the Old Covenant laws?
If we follow one law are we then obligated to follow all the law?
Has the death and resurrection of Christ abolished all Old Testament commandments and regulations?

New testament instructions on giving.

2 Cor 9:7-10 Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

2 Cor 8:13-15 I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written, "The one who had much did not have too much, and the one who had little did not have too little."

1 Corinthians 16
The Collection for God's People
1 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Galatians 5: 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

TheMatmanReturns · Nov 19, 2006

msbojingles said:
interesting question.

I'd also like to know why the vast majority of (christian ~ even the most devout who do not "receive" the curse) women still feel pain in child birth ~ since that is part of the curse.

Inquiring minds want to know.

One could argue that the curse of painful childbirth was placed before Moses was given the Law, as it was a byproduct of Adam and Eve's sin, not the breach of any covenant found in the Law.

TheMatmanReturns · Nov 19, 2006

seekthetruth909 said:
I did a bible study with my group on tithing last year and I put together some scipture and notes on the subject.

God Bless

THE THREE MAIN ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT OF TITHING.

1. Tithing was a pre- Mosaic Law because Abraham tithed.
Was Abraham commanded by God to tithe? Did Abraham tithe only one time? Did Abraham tithe his personal property or just the spoils of war? Read Gen 14:20, Hebrews 7:3-5 If we follow all the examples of Abraham should we also practice polygamy, give burnt offerings and practice circumcision? Did Abraham teach his children to always tithe? If Abraham taught his children to tithe why did Jacob make a proposal to God?
He would tithe only if God would bless him first with good fortune. Read Gen 28:22

2. Jesus told the Pharisees to continue to tithe their spices.
Matt 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Jesus also told the leper he cured to offer burnt offerings as Mosaic Law commanded.

Luke 5:14 Then Jesus ordered him, “Don't tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” Exodus 10:25, 20:24

Why do no Christian churches today offer burnt offerings as sacrifices?

Why did Jesus on these two occasions recommend keeping Mosaic Law?
Was it because the leper and the Pharisees were still under Mosaic Law until the crucifixion of Christ? Galatians 4:4

Was the life of Jesus the fulfillment of The Law and his dying on the cross the abolishment of The Law? Colossians 2 16 Are we now under the new covenant of Grace? Romans 6:14 Ephesians 2:8

Galatians 4:4 “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,”

3. Jesus came to fulfill the law not change it.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Written before the crucifixion of Christ]
If the law has not been abolished should we still practice all 603 Old Testament laws including tithing? What does the word “fulfill” imply in this context? Consider Ephesians 2:15 [written after the crucifixion of Christ] “By abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.”
Matthew 5:17 and Ephesians 2:15 seem to contradict each other so we must search more scripture for clarification. Consider the following passages:

Galatians 3:25 “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Galatians 3:23 “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.”

Galatians 3:11 “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” [ Heb. 2:4]

Hebrews 8:7 “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.”

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.”

Galatians 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Galatians 3:2 “ I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?”

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).

Galatians 5:3 “Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.”

Galatians 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written:” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Romans 7:2-4 “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

What do the previous passages imply in regards to the Old Covenant laws?
If we follow one law are we then obligated to follow all the law?
Has the death and resurrection of Christ abolished all Old Testament commandments and regulations?

Additional notes

Even Jewish Rabbis who follow the old covenant today refuse to collect tithes. Why? Only direct descendants of Levites are permitted to collect tithes according to the law and the temple in Jerusalem with all the genealogy records was destroyed. Hebrews 7: 5 Deuteronomy 18:1, 26:12

Who are the new priests of Christ and where is his temple?

1 Peter 2:5 “you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” 1 Peter 2:9

1 Corinthians 6:19
19 “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;”
There are more Old Testament scriptures on tithing implying that there are three tithes resembling a taxation system, [Deut. 14 26-29] and that tithes are to be eaten, [Deut.14: 22-26]. Do any modern tithing churches eat their tithes?

Note: In relation to Deut14: 22-26. Some churches claim food was tithed because Israel was an agricultural society and there was no money to tithe. Is this true?
Genesis 17:12
“For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.”

New testament instructions on giving.

2 Cor 9:7-10 “Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

2 Cor 8:13-15 “ I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written, "The one who had much did not have too much, and the one who had little did not have too little."

1 Corinthians 16
The Collection for God's People
1 Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3 Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.
James 1:27 “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.”
Galatians 5: 4 “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”

Note : Please read all scriptures quoted here in their complete context to have a better understanding of God’s word .

One more thought

After Abraham (or Abram) tithed to the King of Salem, he returned the rest of the spoils to the King of Sodom.

jrlinz · Nov 19, 2006

I often wonder how people arrive at the idea that Jesus' sacrifice somehow freed us of any need to do anything other than what we feel like doing. Is that not a carnal-minded interpretation?

Definately a personal decision to tithe. One thing no one can successfully argue with me: tithing works.

Starcrystal · Nov 20, 2006

jrlinz said:
I often wonder how people arrive at the idea that Jesus' sacrifice somehow freed us of any need to do anything other than what we feel like doing. Is that not a carnal-minded interpretation?

Definately a personal decision to tithe. One thing no one can successfully argue with me: tithing works.

If a person wants to give 10% of their income, fine. If they want to give 1% or 25% fine... but no matter what they give let it be freewill, not an obligation.

Here's a good tithing message that gets down to the nitty gritty about what a tithe really was and about the "curse."

Tithes and Offerings (part I)

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." - Mathew 23:23
On the surface what does it look like this is saying? That Jesus approves of tithing because he tells the Pharisees "not to leave the other undone." But is Jesus really justifying the doctrine of tithing that we hear preached in our churches today? He is not! This message will shed light on the error of tithe teachings. Please be patient and above all else search the scriptures to verify that these things are of God. (Acts 17:11)
What else do we notice in Matthew? The tithe was of mint, anise, and cumin - herbs! Not money. Tithing was about food, not money. The leaders who promote tithing will argue that it is not just an Old Testament teaching because Paul took up collections, and Jesus told the Pharisees to continue tithing. I'm sorry but they are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. So let's try to do that and see what Scripture really has to say about tithing.
"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD...And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. - Leviticus 27:30 & 32
Seed and fruit and flocks. Do you see money mentioned here?
Tithing was to be given to the Levitical priesthood. It was to provide meat for the temple, for feast days, and to distribute to the poor, and to provide sacrifices unto the Lord: See what Numbers 18:26 says,
"Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe."
Somehow churches have twisted the true meaning of tithing into a "commandment" in which they tell you God requires 10 percent of your income. Again, tithing was never about money! In fact look at these verses in Deuteronomy:
"Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, (Deuteronomy 14:22 - 26)
Notice it says that if the trip is too long that the people were to sell the things they were going to tithe for money, but when they got to the place God wanted them to go they were to use that money to buy the food items they were supposed to tithe with! How clear can it be that tithing is not about giving money! Money is considered an offering, and an offering can be any amount according to what you feel like giving.
Before we go on we need to look at Malachi 3: 8 - 11 because this is the scripture that is always used when a tithing message is preached:
"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts."
Let's look carefully at this. Notice verse 10. What does it say? That the tithes are so that there will be meat in Gods house. Tithing was always about food and never about money. I keep repeating that so it will sink in just like Paul said he wrote the same things over again. The problem with using the Malachi verses is that it teaches a curse if people don't pay tithes. Churches teach we will have financial hardships if we don't give our tithes, and blessings and increase if we do tithe. Sometimes this happens sometimes it doesn't. For the most part it doesn't from what I've seen. Pastors who preached tithing and took 10 percent of welfare recipients monthly income while the pastor lived in a quarter million dollar home and drove a fancy car. The welfare recipients by and large stayed on welfare and continued to struggle. There was a time I tithed years ago because I didn't know better and felt guilty not doing it. I saw no increase but what I did see was anywhere from 20 to 40 dollars less in my wallet each week.
Why is it then that we hear of people who don't tithe or stopped tithing and then did have financial problems? Almost sounds like the curse mentioned in Malachi doesn't it? And pastors will even preach that! The answer my brothers and sisters is quite simple - but it's very disturbing. I'm just going to tell it like it is as God has shown me. I'm not going to water this down one bit....
The answer is that they are cursed, but not cursed by God or for any scriptural reason. They are cursed by the churches teaching, and they are cursed by their own guilt and fear caused by the teaching! Beware of guilt! Beware of fear! There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus! Amen?
Today scientists and doctors are finally telling us that things like stress, worry, guilt, and fear can affect us physically. These things can make you sick! And these things can affect you spiritually as well. Even the pagans will tell you that. And as Christians we know he who fears is not made perfect in love and that fear has torment, Amen? Your fears can be made manifest if you worry about them or believe they might happen. Look at Job. I think Job had a lot going for him and he worried that he would lose it all. What happened? Job actually admits he feared what ended up happening to him.
Job 3:25 "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."
Pastors are teaching us we disobey God if we aren't tithing. They tell us we are robbing God. They might as well just tell us we are thieves if we don't tithe - in fact, some will even go so far to say that! Then we feel guilty if we don't tithe or we can't tithe. That guilt breeds fear and fear has torment.
Not only are we bringing the curse upon ourselves, but we leave ourselves wide open to the preachers curse. That's right. I just said preachers curse. Oh, I'm not saying they do it intentionally. The preachers are themselves deceived by something they were taught. They haven't bothered to do an exhaustive scriptural study on the issue of tithing. They completely miss the fact that tithes had to do with food and not money. Offerings are the money, but somehow the preachers get tithes and offerings mixed up. God never required 10 percent of our monetary income. God required 10 percent of food stuffs for the temple and a good part of that was for sacrificial offerings. We are the temple of God today - the veil was rent. Christ was our passover lamb, the final and perfect sacrifice. Christ is the High Priest. No more tithes were needed.

But let's get back to the preachers curse because this is very important and I pray God that if you are deceived by tithe teachings, or if you've taught tithing that God would open your eyes and ears to the truth. The truth shall set you free, amen?
The pastor teaches tithing and he believes what he is teaching. And he tells his congregation that they will have financial hardships if they don't tithe, and blessings if they do. Almost sounds like a kind of blackmail doesn't it? But they believe it because they preach it, and they collect tithes of money, fully believing God is in it.
The second part of Mark 11:23 tells us if someone "shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." This is a spiritual principle not confined to Christianity alone. Witches and Satanists will tell you the same thing. Many pagans and people of other religions will tell you they received things because they believed strongly enough that those things would happen. And because a pastor believes strongly that his tithing messages are true, they unconsciously are casting a spell on their congregation! For those who believe his message and think they are falling under conviction from God, they fall under the spell! This is the pastors or the preachers curse! But what it really is is guilt and fear, not conviction. All because the preacher believes it, but the truth is the teaching is not Scriptural because tithes have nothing to do with giving money to a church!
Brothers and sisters, do you feel guilty because your pastor tells you there'll be trouble if you don't tithe? Do you fear financial hardship if you don't give that 10 percent like the teaching says? Jesus wants to break your bondage and set you free from guilt and fear! Tithing is not a commandment of God for the church of Jesus Christ! Offerings yes...

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." - 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
There is a particular problem with the saints in Jerusalem and Paul is asking the churches to help the saints there. This means that they hadn't collected money before the problem and wouldn't be collecting money for ever. It was a particular problem and they would help till Paul visited the church there.
It was rather a practical way Paul showed them how to collect the money, not a law they had to obey for ever. Please notice that they are collecting money for the saints. Not for buildings, not for organizations, but for saints. Obviously this has nothing to do with tithes but offerings.
Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." Notice as he purposed in his heart. No 10 percent. A free will offering from the heart. In the verse before that Paul wrote that he who sows sparingly will reap sparingly and he who sows abundantly will reap abundantly. But even there he never mentions a percentage. In the new Testament it's always about giving what you can, what you feel led to, and from the heart - not some legalistic commandment with a curse attached!
Pastors, have you been deceived by doctrines of men and are you preaching this awful tithing doctrine? May God forbid! Any hardships encountered by your congregation as a result of your tithing teaching will be on your head! God will hold you accountable in the judgment. God will require it! Not only that, you are unknowingly committing black magic. You're cursing your congregation!
We are spiritual people and you need to understand how spiritual things work. If you are teaching something that is not ordained by God, and is really a false doctrine of twisting of the scriptures, and the particular teaching happens to contain a curse if people don't follow the teaching..... you're guilty of witchcraft! You did it in ignorance, you listened in ignorance, but now this message shines the light, amen? Search the scriptures and see if this message isn't in line with the Word of God. Try reconciling tithing money to a church with what you now know. You won't be able. You won't find it in the Bible. Even in genesis where Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, it was grains and flocks. Because tithes are food, not money.
Because tithe teachings contain a curse if you don't tithe, it falls under witchcraft. If you've been bound by this teaching , repent. Confess to the LORD and ask God to cleanse you of guilt and fear. If your a leader who has preached tithing you need to repent to God and confess to your congregation. Don't let fear get you that the offerings will drop. You might be surprised, but I'm not God so i don't know. But have faith and trust God. Rather be obedient to God and have a little less that disobey God and teach a false teaching that affects your congregation, actually puts a burden on them that is not of God. And you need to teach the truth now. In fact many in your congregation might have more respect for your honesty and humility... who knows, offerings could even increase, but again I can't tell one way or another. Besides it shouldn't be about what the offering might be, more or less - but it should be about obeying God. It's all about obeying God. It's not about money. If in your heart it's about the money then you have no business preaching. But most of you it's not about the money, it's about being deceived by a teaching you learned from someone, or perhaps misinterpreted the scriptures because you weren't searching all the scriptures related to tithing.
We have seen the truth behind modern day tithe teachings. They are not of God. They are of man. We have seen what tithes really were and we have seen what offerings are. We should still give offerings. But we do so as we will, not as a command. We are set free. The blood of Christ frees us from the bondage of legalism and the bondage of curses.
(continued in next post)

Starcrystal · Nov 20, 2006

That is the message. I encourage you if you have any doubt to search all the scriptures on tithing. Don't go reading books by men who might promote tithing, or even books against tithing. Ok, so you're reading this or listening to this message, but I am telling you go to the Word on this. Go to God. Set aside the teachings of men. Listen to the LORD.
AMEN.

Tithes & Offerings (part II)

Last time we looked at what tithes were and what they were not. Notice I am using the past tense "were" because as we saw tithes were an Old Testement requirement that were to be given to the Levitical priests specifically so there would be meat or food in the temple. The only time we see tithes mentioned in the New Testement are before Jesus' crusifixion, not afterwards. Once the Spirit filled church began to operate you will find no reference to tithes.

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." - 1 Timothy 5:17 - 18

The portion that says "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out corn" comes from Deuteronomy 25:4 and is mentioned by Paul twice - once to Timothy and once in 1 Corinthians chapter 9. The verse is used to explain how pastors and elders of the church should "reap the carnal things" and in 1 Corinthians 9:14 it tells us "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

These verses are often used by tithe teachers to encourage their congregations to pay tithes. But again, I would challenge you - show me where it says to pay tithes, to pay 10 percent to the elders? It does not. Again, these verses are referring to offerings, not tithes. Why? You remember in the last message. Tithes were food, meat - not money.

Another thing I would like to point out. What do we usually hear when a church leader is teaching about tithes and offerings? They will usually tell us that the tithe is 10 percent of your income and an offering is anything you give that is above and beyond the tithe. This is another fallacy, another error. Because tithes and offerings have to do with different things. One has to do with food for the temple, the other has to do with money, or in some cases food or other goods offered of a persons own free will. I'm sorry, you must think I sound redundant because I'm continually emphasizing that tithes are food. I am. Maybe it will sink in! Maybe it needs to be repeated in order to show conclusively that what most churches teach today about tithing is in error.

Do you know the Hebrew word translated "freewill offering" in the Old Testement literally means "voluntary, willing, offering?" And this is the only kind of offering we are called to give after Jesus resurrection.

Let's look for a minute at the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts chapter 4 and 5. Most of us know the story. People were selling land and giving the money to the apostles. Annanias and Sapphira decided to keep part of the money they made but they told Peter that what they gave was what they sold the land for. As a result they died - not for keeping part of the money, but for lying. Let's read Acts 5:4 "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

In other words they could have done what they wanted with the money, or kept the land. They were not obligated to give anything at all! They were punished for lying and not because of any amount of money. But you know on some occasions preachers will even use this portion of scripture, out of context, and they will tie it in to their tithe teachings? The story of Annanias and Sapphira really has nothing to do with money, has nothing at all to do with tithes, and has everything to do with honesty between a man and God.

You know, God has a way of confirming his Word. I had no sooner written the notes for what I just said about honesty that I decided I needed to check something online. One of my friends had written "Humbleness means peace, honesty." I was saying, "praise God, thank you Lord," because it showed me God was in this, God was leading the message.

I want to look back again at some of the things we covered last time. Let's look at Deuteronomy 26:12 because I know I keep emphasizing tithes were food, and this is even more evidence that shows what tithes were.

"When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled."

See where the tithes go and what they are? Now today people are twisting this and saying to bring the money so the church can have money to work with and distribute to the poor, missions, and such things. And they say the 10 percent tithe is how they will be able to do these things. But they miss the entire teaching on what tithes were in the first place! Tithes specifically were for the temple, the Levites, for special feasts, for sacrificial offerings, and yes, to feed the poor. The entire tithing systems was quite far removed from what is going on in Christianity today.

And in Nehemiah 10:37 it tells us to bring " the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage."

Notice again that tithes are food, not monies. Notice also that there were set times to bring tithes. It wasn't weekly. Deuteronomy 14:22 says "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year." Well, anyone who has ever grown a garden or farmed or raised animals knows there is only one harvest season. You certainly couldn't bring tithes of your crops or your livestock once a week. And we saw in chapter 26 it mentions every third year. So where do we get this 10 percent of weekly income from? It's because teachers mistakenly believe that when Paul wrote about collecting for the saints in Jerusalem that he was talking about tithes. As we saw before, he wasn't. In fact if you remember, he was talking about a special collection in that case. That's when he told them to lay aside some money on the first day of the week. He didn't tell them to tithe and as a former Pharisee Paul would have known what a tithe was, and that tithes were food.

You know in Malachi 3:10 where it says to bring tithes so there will be meat in Gods house? The Hebrew word translated "meat" literally means "food," or "leaf." Do most of our seminaries teach these things? Or are they teaching doctrines of men? Why do they teach tithes are money and tithes are required by the church when they never were? Find it in the Bible. You won't. You'll find free will offerings when we get to the church dispensation.

Remember the widows mite? It's at the end of Mark 12 and in Luke 21. Jesus said she had put in more than everyone else because she gave all she had. The rest of the people had put in out of their abundance. They were putting money into the treasury of the temple. They were giving offerings, not tithes. In Luke 21 we have the same story and Jesus says the rich were putting in their "gifts." Not tithes. In fact we already saw in the last message that when Jesus mentions tithes he specifies that they were mint, anise, and cumin - that they were herbs, food stuffs.

Now let's get back to where we started at the beginning of this message. The laborer is worthy of his rewards. Full time pastors need money to live on. Church bills need paid. And saints should feel led to give offerings. But they should not be pressured. They should be gently taught in love. God loves a cheerful giver. How cheerful can they be who are threatened with the Malachi curse if they don't give 10 percent?

We already saw what the tithe teachings with the curse are. Whenever you teach something with a curse attached and it's not Gods teaching then it's witchcraft. I won't hound on and on about this, but I will say that witchcraft is really about control and manipulation. People think it has to do with spells and devils and black magic. But underlying all those things it's really about controlling others. And the way the tithe teachings are taught it is a form of control. All I will say further on this is that if God has shown you the truth about tithes and what they are and are not, and you continue to promote the error of the tithe teaching, you are rebelling against God at that point. What did Samuel tell Saul when Saul disobeyed what God told him? "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft." - 1 Samuel 15:23. And for that matter, it's not just the tithe teachings - any teaching that you know to be wrong and continue to teach it anyways, well... you get the point! That's all I will say on the witchcraft subject.

I will not linger any further on this message. I hope and I pray that God move upon each and every one, and open your eyes and ears to the truth. We are given liberty in Christ, not bondage. Let's be careful of legalism no matter what disguise it is wearing. Legalism can be overt or it can be subtle. It can be masked by using specific chosen scripture verses out of context. It is a deception - a bondage. Let us be free of bondage. Let's rightly divide the word of truth.

I've felt led to teach this tithe message because so many churches are deceived in this area. Some are more aggressive than others, but many - many churches honestly have been led to believe tithing is a concept for the Christian church and it involves 10 percent of your paycheck. Brothers and sisters, we have clearly seen that is not a scriptural teaching. You know, it disturbs me when some of these television preachers spend so much of their air time begging for money and talking about tithes and offerings. It disturbs me whenever I hear a preacher talk about the Malachi curse coming upon you if you don't tithe.

Perhaps you should bring a couple cows or chickens to church next time! How about a basket of apples, or a bushel of corn? Those would be real tithes, but then again where is the Levite to give them to? Where is the temple where the Levite will take a tithe of your tithe to sacrifice to the LORD? Do you see the irony in this?

There is really nothing more I have to say. God has given me these messages. I really didn't know where I'd be going with them or what direction. I saw God specifically confirm the message when I talked about honesty. The person who wrote that didn't even know I was working on this message. That was God confirming His Word, Amen?

Let us search the Scriptures and go before the LORD if we have any doubt, any questions. I would encourage you to do this all the time, not just with this message, but every message. Acts 17:11 - hear and receive the word with gladness and search the scriptures daily to see that these things are so. So often Christians do the first part and neglect the second. Let us not neglect searching the scriptures because when you do that you will know the truth.

AMEN

jrlinz · Nov 20, 2006

There are a few very obvious 'leaps of faith' involved in believing this doctrine on tithing, starcrystal. And, one must consider that tithing works for so, so many people, today, here and now.

DIVA_for_Christ · Nov 20, 2006

jrlinz said:
And, one must consider that tithing works for so, so many people, today, here and now.

Count me in that group. I tithe because I love God and I want to return to Him the first portion of my income and then some. I also realize that if it wasn't for Him I wouldn't have an income and you can't out give God.

A lot of people think I'm crazy for putting God first in my finances because of the trials I've had to endure like repossession of my car, being evicted, not having food in the house for myself and my daughter, utilities being cut off, etc - yet I still returned tithes before I paid bills. But I could care less about what people think about me because they are not my source - GOD IS and through it all God had developed my trust in Him as being my provider. Every situation that I found myself in, He provided in the midst of the storm and in that He purged financial irresponsibility out of me, teaching me how to be a good steward over all and I thank Him for it.

Are there corrupt pastors, yes there is. There are leaders who use manipulation to get money out of the congregation and we have to trust God to deal with them. Just becasue someone is a pastor does not mean they don't still need deliverance and when leaders have to result to manipulation to get money out of people it's because they don't really trust God to make a way out of no way. For me, what they do has nothing to do with my relationship with God, nor my commitment to return tithe to His house. All that matters is my obedience to God.

marke · Nov 20, 2006

Seekthetruth909 once again gives us thoughtful scripture by which we are all enriched. Thanks again.

He missed one though... When Jesus was asked what was necessary to get into Heaven Jesus went through the commandments and the man said he followed them and then Jesus said.... there is just one more thing you need to do... give all your money to the poor and follow me. Tithe heck! The message was give up your wealth and follow Jesus.

I myself like tithing, but I don't pay attention to the amount or tithe like clockwork. I see a need and if the Holy Spirit moves me to fill that need, I fill it.

The reason I like giving money away is that it causes you to trust God. Love of money is the root of all evil and represents the strongest tool the enemy of your soul has to fight against your walk with Jesus by bonding you to the world.

By trusting that God will repay you and more for helping the poor and giving money (and stuff) to those in need, you break the financial bonds the evil one uses to subject you and lo and behold, God is true to his promise and more goodness comes back to you. The gift is always to the giver.

As to preachers telling you that you are cursed if you don't tithe. Turn it around and ask them what they use the tithe for? Many times you'll see the poor are not helped, but those in the church are which shows you need to find another church. Jesus teaches if you give to yourselves and to those who can return the favor, you've done nothing at all. Help those in need and you've answered the call.

God Bless.

marke · Nov 20, 2006

jrlinz said:
I often wonder how people arrive at the idea that Jesus' sacrifice somehow freed us of any need to do anything other than what we feel like doing. Is that not a carnal-minded interpretation?

Definately a personal decision to tithe. One thing no one can successfully argue with me: tithing works.

Amen to that brother.

Tithing works to build faith in God.

God bless.

Tamara224 · Nov 20, 2006

jrlinz said:
There are a few very obvious 'leaps of faith' involved in believing this doctrine on tithing, starcrystal. And, one must consider that tithing works for so, so many people, today, here and now.

Joe, I think there is a difference between tithing and giving. IMO, 'tithing works' as you put it because it is following the basic principles that God has established as to sowing and reaping. However, imo, what people are opposed to is not the giving or the reaping/sowing that comes from it. People are opposed to preachers who mandate a 10% tithe and make rules about it that amount to legalism. Also, preaching that Christians are obligated to tithe 10% of our incomes (as is taught by many churches) is contrary to clear Biblical teachings.

We should give and we should do it joyfully. But whenever it is mandated, it takes away the trust in the Holy Spirit and is missing the point of Grace.

Just so you know, no one is suggesting that we stop giving. Only that we not preach that the Bible says each person is supposed give at least 10% of their income - because the Bible doesn't teach that.

jrlinz · Nov 20, 2006

Tamara, I have honestly never been in a church like that, although I am sure they exist. Are they really common?
My Pastor certainly does not ever demand tithe, or threaten lightening bolts from heaven for those who withhold. But, he does often say he would be amiss if he did not inform of the blessings available to those who do tithe/give.

Tamara224 · Nov 20, 2006

jrlinz said:
Tamara, I have honestly never been in a church like that, although I am sure they exist. Are they really common?
My Pastor certainly does not ever demand tithe, or threaten lightening bolts from heaven for those who withhold. But, he does often say he would be amiss if he did not inform of the blessings available to those who do tithe/give.

Yes, unfortunately, there seem to be quite a few churches that demand tithes and turn it into a legalism. I've even had the misfortune of hearing a sermon in which the pastor told us that we could get struck with leprosy for failing to tithe 10%. :doh:

I've also been to a church that kept track of everyone's giving and their incomes and if they weren't tithing at least 10% of their gross income, they were given "church discipline". It's abuses like these, imo, that lead people to be very vehement about this subject.

Tithing v. Being "Redeemed By the Curse"

Veteran

Life of Trials :)

Veteran

Veteran

Blessed by the Best!!

Maranatha

resident brat and doom and gloomer

Veteran

Veteran

Veteran

Well-Known Member

Sheep in Wolves clothing

Sheep in Wolves clothing

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads