Does God Love Everybody?

LouisBooth · Aug 8, 2002

*mod hat on*

wannabe stay on topic this happened once don't let it happen again. Don't be a troll.

*mod hat off*

wannabe · Aug 8, 2002

What's a "troll" Louis?

LouisBooth · Aug 8, 2002

See the rules.

Thinker · Aug 9, 2002

Hmmmm....

God loves everybody....

Wants everybody to be with him....

Yet, according to christian theology, something like 90% or better of humanity is going to be tortured in Hell eternally - with God acting as the jailor.

Yet, if God really loves *everybody*, and wants *everybody* to be with him, then that means he wants even those people in Hell to be with him... so maybe he lets them out eventually.

And being all-knowing, amongst his other traits, God would know if they were truly repentant or not...

Received · Aug 9, 2002

UNLESS God is a repecter of intrinsic value on behalf of man's free will. I was universalist for a while, because I could not imagine that God tortured individuals on behalf of their minor faults. But that is not the story. This is not about a level of human fault, but about a mindset. Mindsets, when added with eternity of pride, do not change. The flames of hell are symbolic, as it talks of the "lake of fire". Fire represents judgment in the bible. Also, if christians must interpret this literally, how can they find the theological right to not interpret such instances as the dragon and the horsemen literally? Hell is not torture, but it is torment. It is not a question of God 'sending' people to Hell, but is a question of God curing something within a person that will literally become hell unless nipped in the bud. Hell is first a state of mind. John 3 echos this clearly.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe in Him is condemned already." (3:18)

Also, I would not deny the mercy of God to let them out if they were to change their minds. But pride is a total corruption of human character. The people in hell will be so blind as to not see the escape they will have for all eternity, which will make it impossible for them to find the better. Hell does not seem like hell from hell, but from heaven it does. All about contentment. Still, it will not be a very happy place to be. But God leaves them be. C.S. Lewis once said that man either will say to God, "your will be done" or God will say to a conscience past feeling, "your will be done". How is that not compassionate? He does want everyone free, but what He desires is different than what He decrees. The same is true with an earthly father and his son when punishment knocks at the door for something the child did wrong.

Remember, if Hell were as horrendous as our favorite baptist preachers make it be (on the case of fire, etc.) there would be power over heaven, as the people there would mourn over their lost one's destruction.  That is not the case.  Hell does not have the power to veto Heaven.  If it did, would it really be heaven and all that talk of eternal happiness?

blessings,

John

wannabe · Aug 9, 2002

Just trace back the word "hell" and you will see it is a transliteration of "helel" another name for satan. AS for the land of the dead where people are tormented forever known as Hades (well the GREEKS have a terrific imagination) "Hell" was taken from Hades correct? Hades was the"god" of the dead of the underworld. Hades was "translated" from the original Hebrew "Sheol" in which Sheol meant "the common grave, pit. THATS IT! nothing fancing to it until the GREEKS got a hold of it and thought it sounded a little tooo boorrring.

franklin · Aug 9, 2002

Originally posted by wannabe
Just trace back the word "hell" and you will see it is a transliteration of "helel" another name for satan. AS for the land of the dead where people are tormented forever known as Hades (well the GREEKS have a terrific imagination) "Hell" was taken from Hades correct? Hades was the"god" of the dead of the underworld. Hades was "translated" from the original Hebrew "Sheol" in which Sheol meant "the common grave, pit. THATS IT! nothing fancing to it until the GREEKS got a hold of it and thought it sounded a little tooo boorrring.

Wannabe, either you just can't take a hint or your just not getting it are you?  What part of "staying on the topic" do you not understand?  Your continuing to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion is getting a little old!   

goodnewsinc · Aug 9, 2002

Hello!

When God created many languages in the tower of Babel scenario, many reference names were created for Him in those languages. He IS NOT OFFENED by any reference name He has in any language. Jewish bias in arrogantly presuming that use of another reference other than a Hebrew or Aramaic reference name makes no sense whatsoever! YOU may be offended by the term "God" in English but my Father is not offended neither is He a petty extremist who refuses to hear or answer others, those who call upon Him using a name in those other languages. You DO NOT speak for God. You do speak for Jewish prejudice and arrogant presumption. I DO NOT BUY THAT, neither do God's other children in the other nations of the world buy that! Jews do not have a "lock" on God as many Orthodox Jews believe. Look at this:

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

He is the Father of ALL NATIONS, not just the Jews after the flesh! Psalm 87, 82:6-8, Isaiah 45:9-11, Matthew 23:9.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 29:20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: 21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

I highly suggest that you STOP teaching for commandments the doctrine of biased and blind men which make your other brethren in other nations "offenders for a word" (God), a mere name. My Father will have none of it! "In vain do they worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"!

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc. :clap:

wannabe · Aug 9, 2002

Goodnewsync, the post on "Hell" was referring to the previous post, why are you so upset. Speaking of "Hell" you started your post with "Hello" guess where the vocalization of "Hell'o" came from? oops... I better not get you started again...

And yes YAHWEH did "scramble" the language BECAUSE HE WAS ANGRY on what was being done. Did He scramble the language to scramble His name?
Now...Let me think once again, hmmm....
what was His name written on? STONE!
as a covenant for how long? FOREVER!

Who is Gad? God! God is Gad is God is Gad. GAD once again is a MAN MADE DEITY!!

Yahshaiyah 54:5 ( wrongly Isaiah, but I bet you didn't know that.)
For your CREATOR is your husband, YAHWEH Sabaoth is His name, the Holy one of Israel is your redeemer, He is called the MAKER of the whole world.

New Jerusalem Bible.

In order to "see" you also need to trace the meanings of certain words
to "separate" false from truth.

LightBearer · Aug 10, 2002

To answer this question correctly you have to qualify what you mean by LOVE. The Bible uses four different words to discribe four different forms of LOVE.

(The word Philia.) A feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a friend, for a parent or child, and so forth; warm fondness or liking for another

And two words drawn from stor·ge' (e'ros, love between the sexes)

And finally, (Agape). The Scriptures speak of this love as guided by principle, as love of righteousness or even love for ones enemies, for whom a person may not have affection. This facet or expression of love is an unselfish devotion to righteousness and a sincere concern for the lasting welfare of others, along with an active expression of this for their good. It is this form of love (Agape) that is used when the bible says in John 3: 16. "God loved the world so much that he gave is only beggoten son in order that everyone exercising faithin him may not be destroyed but have everlasting life". But verse 36 goes on to say "He that exercises faith in the son has everlasting life, he that disobeys the son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him".

So, God loves those who do not obey his son only in principle. In that he has made available the means for them to attain to everlasting life if the so choose, but he does not have warm affection for them as he does those who do obey his son, and as such can still remain his enemies while being objects of his superlative love.  But only for a limited time. 

LightBearer · Aug 10, 2002

Originally posted by Job_38
I don't know if God loves everybody. There are many parts in scripture that seem strange, yet until you put them together. My belief is that God loves and hates who he chooses, such as in Romans(forgot where) "And Jacob I loved, Esauh(spelling error) I hated.

 

The word for hated can simply be translated "loved less" without any malice behind it.

goodnewsinc · Aug 10, 2002

Hello, wannabe!

You may ascribe to whatever theology you please. I do not make men offenders over a word and neither does Elohim, since you prefer Hebrew terminology. You are not the Judge and YOU do not speak for Him! I am His son and so is every human being on this earth's surface. El is not fazed nor offended when I refer to His deity as "God"! Since my worship of my Father is directed to Him, your opinion of my style is not important at all. If you do not approve, you will have to stew in your own juices. Since my Father answers me and speaks to me within, tell me why I should even regard your spin on this "name" theology? You are just a man and a brother and I respect you as such, no more and no less. My relationship with my Father is a personal matter strictly beween me and Him. Do you think I have understood this correctly?

John,
GOOD NEWS, Inc. :clap:

Josephus · Aug 10, 2002

God can easily love you and hate a disease destroying your life within you. So too can God love a sinner and hate the sin which destroys your soul.

franklin · Aug 11, 2002

Originally posted by Josephus
God can easily love you and hate a disease destroying your life within you. So too can God love a sinner and hate the sin which destroys your soul.

Contrary to popular belief sin is not a disease that is passed on from one person to another, the scripture says, "Sin is the transgression of the law." (1John 3:4) So, according to the Scripture, sin is an act or a choice that transgresses the law of God.  It cannot, therefore, be a substance because choice and substance are contradictories. Is a wicked act a substance? Is disobedience, transgressions, lawbreaking, or unrighteousness a substance? Is guilt a substance? No, they are all moral concepts or moral qualities; And it is impossible for them to be transmitted physically. When we speak of sin, we are describing the character of an act. The word sin describes the character of an act as being wicked or wrong. The popular message among evangelicals in these modern times in which we live is, God loves you just the way you are no matter how much sin you have in your life!  After all, that is the way God made us!  We need to be more upbeat and positive with our message to the lost so it will be more acceptable to them, we don't want to offend them by making them aware of the fact that they're sinful lifestyle has offended a holy and righteous God!  We have to tell them, hey, God loves you no matter what!  We want them to feel secure in their sins!  Is that how Jesus responded to the rich young ruler?  Do you see Jesus saying to the young man, "hey, God loves everybody, my father in heaven is just and He is a fair God, He wouldn't hurt a fly, come on in to God's Kingdom and join our sunday school group, we'll work with you on your sinful greed problem after you say the sinners prayer!"  Instead, Jesus preached the Law to him and identified the young rulers sin of greed!  Our preaching today has become watered down to the point where we don't talk about sin any more because it might offend the sinner and we surely don't want him to lose his sence of security in his sins!  And it even gets better after you receive Jesus into your heart, because after you get saved your going to continue to sin because you have this sinful nature that God gave you at birth and when you sin, God won't see your sins, He will see Jesus instead!  That sounds like the gospel of convenience not the Gospel of Jesus Christ! 

   

 

Lanakila · Aug 11, 2002

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord as clearly stated in 1 Cor 15:3-7. Yes, easy believism is being taught in churches. Even those that preach hellfire and brimstone, seem to have this problem. Salvation is free to us, but it cost Jesus everything. Sin is ugly and we tend to gloss over it even in our own lives I am afraid. It is so much easier to say oops I made a mistake, than my bad I sinned against you and God by saying that crewl thing to you. (if you get my meaning) I think if some of us would read a little more of the OT law especially about the sacrificial system we might understand this price a little more clearly, expecially if you team it up with the book of Hebrews.

Auntie · Aug 12, 2002

Hello Franklin! :wave:

I tend to think that God loves everybody. Just look at Paul, wasn't he a pretty bad dude, a Christian killer? Tell me if he wasn't, I'm going on memory here.

So if Paul was a Christian killer, and therefore did God hate Paul?

As far as that goes, didn't Jesus spend time with sinners? Did Jesus hate them?

franklin · Aug 12, 2002

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Hello Franklin! I tend to think that God loves everybody. Just look at Paul, wasn't he a pretty bad dude, a Christian killer? Tell me if he wasn't, I'm going on memory here.
So if Paul was a Christian killer, and therefore did God hate Paul?
As far as that goes, didn't Jesus spend time with sinners? Did Jesus hate them?

Hey there belle!  how are ya? I'll give you a wave back....  :wave:

  To tell the Christ-rejecter that God loves him is to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs. If Christ died for all, then all are saved. If He paid the price for all, then all have been redeemed. If Christ is truly the propitiation for all, then God's demands are satisfied for all. But don't forget one vital detail: not all accept the gift! The debt has surely been paid for all by Christ, but not all choose to put on Christ (Galatians 3:26-27). Yes, Paul murdered believers but he chose to put on Christ and follow and obey him to the very end of his life.  Yes, Christ spent time with sinners because God sent Him into the world to bring the good news to those who would accept the gift and follow him and keep His commandments. 

Thanks for your comments and it was good to hear from you,

FR

goodnewsinc · Aug 16, 2002

THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH

Franklin: "To tell the Christ-rejecter that God loves him is to afford him a sense of security in his sins."

God:

Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls [which] I have made. 17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the Lord; and I will heal him.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Franklin: The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs.

God:

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Now a word from a ("dog"?) sister from the past:

Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Advice from Peter about carnal "errors":

Acts 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

ALL men are made in the image and likeness of the Most High. The foolishness of calling your brother a "dog" is a backward step into a time of darkness!

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Franklin, your "elder son" style of willful arrogance leaves much to be desired!

Franklin: "not all accept the gift!"

TRUTH

Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

John 15:5 ... for without me ye can do nothing.

Perhaps you can learn a positive lesson, if you re-read Acts 10:9-16, 28. Then READ the love attitude of the Father toward all of His "prodigal sons", Luke 15:20-24.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

Follow God, not your own thoughts. What you see Father do, go and do likewise, Matthew 5:43-48.

God feeds "ALL", birds, fish, animals, and humans both the good and the bad and the just and the unjust! You are not the Good Shepherd, Franklin, and the wise will not follow YOUR advice. We know what Father does, and all those with "beautiful feet" will proclaim to all captives that very shortly Father will free them from Pharaohs bonds! Amen!

God did not say, "Avoid proclaiming my peace "because sinners may feel secure", neither did He say, "Do not comfort those bound in sin by devils, because those children are my enemies".  Yo, Franklin!  We do not wrestle flesh and blood like you do (Ephesians 6:12).  All men are sons.  Devils are our common enemy!

John,

GOOD NEWS, Inc. :clap:

ansarthemystic · Aug 26, 2002

I am seeing some very beautiful replies here!

Lightbearer, I agree with you 99% about the love of g-d being agape, but I will have to disagree that g-d has other emotions of love. I f love is an emotion, g-d does not love. If g-d loves, then love can NOT be an emotion.
Franklin, did you you understand what you wrote about sin being merely a trangression of the Law and that it is NOT passable to another as a substance would be? Original sin? Pssible...necessity for Yeshu's death...well I digress

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom

franklin · Aug 30, 2002

Hi all..... There are scriptures that say Christ died for all and there are scriptures that say He died for "many" meaning His assembly..... Does that mean there is a contradiction in scripture? Well, no, because the scripture never contradicts itself! I will only cover a few passages so as not to make this post to long. So let's continue with the sunday school lesson...... 

Passages that say Christ died for all men:

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."
Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Jesus...that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
2 Corinthians 5:14-15, "For the love of Christ constraineth us...And that he died for all..."
John 1:29, "...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
1 John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Passages that say Christ died for only His people, His assembly:

Isaiah 53:12, He poured out His soul to death; and with transgressors He was counted; and He bore the sin of many (not all).
Matthew 20:28, "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
Romans 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Matthew 1:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
John 10:14-15, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Which is true?

To say that Christ died only for His elect is to contradict the verses that say he died for all men, in addition to contradicting what Peter says by inspiration in 2 Peter 2:1-4. Peter talked about false teachers who were "even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves." He clearly states that those who teach such "destructive heresies" and those who follow after them will be lost, even though Jesus had paid the price for their salvation.

1 Timothy 4:10, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 

According to scripture, salvation is conditional. Christ died for all men, but not all believe and accept His gift of salvation. Therefore, this answers the dilemma of how Christ died for all men and for his people at the same time! Yes, he died for all men, and salvation is a gift offered to all men, but only those who chose Christ will have salvation.

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