What it Means to Become a Member of the Church of Christ

In regards to baptism, it looks like we have come to an agreement that baptism is not a requirement for salvation (as you said only those who "believe" are saved), and the agreement is that baptism is proof of a good concience toward God (1 Peter 3:21).

Now we can move on to the next point...


"You really don't know how Jesus is Lord of one's life. And you can't have any relationship with God if
you haven't been reconciled to Him. "

You're judging my salvation. This is inappropriate because I have not asked you to judge me. God is my judge, not you. You can't possibly know if I have a "relationship" with God or not. You can only assume, and as far as a logical debate is concerned, that type of assumption will get you no where fast. I ask that you please refrain from it as it is a totally invalid defense to ignore what I am saying.


"I'm not saying this. The Bible does. Christ is the savior of the church (Eph. 5:23). Christ gave his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). Christ purchased the church with his blood "

So you're saying that in order for me to communicate to God directly, I have to go through the Church? I can't talk to God on my own? That's what personal relationship means, ed. To have a personal relationship with someone means you don't go through anyone else to make it happen, othewise it's not a personal relationship, but a contractural relationship with a middle guy.


"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."

Jesus died for the whole world, ed, not just the church (but he did die for it though too). This makes it possible for ANYONE to come to God through Jesus Christ, and not just those who are a member of a church.

Turn your brand-new Bible to Acts chapter 16 verse 29 where the prison guard falls down trembling before Paul and Silas. In verse 30 he asks them what he should do to be saved. So they said to him (verse 31), " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

What proof does the Bible present to show that the prison guard and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ?

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This has gotta be the most incredible thing I ever see you post, ed. It totally destroys everything you are saying about being a member of the church to be saved.

Ed, let me ask you this: do you become a "believer" before you join the Church, or do you become a "believer" when you believe? You said earlier that those who believe are saved, so in effect you are saying that anyone who just simply believes is saved. You are negating your own statements that state you have to be a member of a church to be saved. First you believe, THEN you become a member.


"You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days."

It doesn't matter WHERE you find them, ed. It just matters that you believe. Just as you said. Stop contradicting yourself and adding things. Simply read what you are posting.


"My point is you cannot use Paul's letters to support your beliefs because Paul is not talking to you. He is talking to members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days, the church where I am an individual member of."

So you're saying that it's illegal for me to use any of Paul's letters to defend what I believe? Isn't scripture given to all men to find out about God?

I find your opinion on this very...unfair. I can't even use scripture to prove answers to the very questions you post to me! :

Ed: Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

J: How can a church exist if its own believers don't believe what it is? All the disciples DESERTED Jesus and didn't believe. He had to rise from the dead to convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter if they were alive or not. Jesus was dying for you and me friend, not just them - and we didn't even exist - so you can't say that Jesus died for the living church because first that would exclude Jesus dying for us, and second, there was no living church. As far as I am concerned, the church didn't exist at all because NO ONE believed when Jesus died. No one. Romans plainly says that Jesus died for EVERYONE while we were YET sinners. Praise God for His grace in doing this for us.

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It doesn't matter WHO Paul is speaking to - I'm just reading what it says! I include myself in the "everyone"! To not do so would be to ignore the fact that I'm a human being!

Romans says that Jesus died for EVERYONE!!!!! ALL sinners includes EVERYONE!!!!! Stop saying that Jesus died only for the church!!!!

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J: All we have to do now is simply recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

e:How can you say I'm unfamiliar with scripture when you haven't shown me any to support your belief?
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Accepting his work of atonement:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 3:25


living as a daily sacrifice:
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." Romans 12:1

I can't believe you don't understand where I am comming from. Why ask for scripture when it's plainly here? Don't you read it for yourself, or do you use some doctrinal program to tell you how to read things?


"I can't stoop down to your level and say things from the top of my head."

Then you aren't a follower of Jesus in my opinion, because this is exactly what Jesus did, and what Paul did. To the Jews: he was a Jew. To the Gentiles: a Gentile. If you can not do this for me, then you have no obvious love for me. If you can not love me, then you do not know the unconditional love of God which he also had for the entire world when He sent His Son.


"I don't have any opinion on the issues that we are discussing. I only say things that the Bible teaches. The moment I let go of the word of God, we would both be blind men leading each other without any sense of where we are going."

I'm glad you're willing to limit yourself. But how about being a little more personal, and prove to me by some story in recent history that your faith is active and that God is with you?

"I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. As you can see, I'm still talking to you. The truth is, what you are sying ws what the Pharisees were saying during the time of Christ."

I consider calling people morons, and judging people's salvation and using that as an excuse not to talk to them is certainly a "shun." But we aren't here to debate this. Let's get back on topic. I look forward to your responses.

"Why don't you back up to verse 1 (this means context, right?) and find out whom Christ was talking to?"

:lol: I was refering to the fact that that verse doesn't say father in it..does it? Nope ..that's all I said Ed.

"I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. "

Yes you have ed. You shun people and say they aren't saved unless they are in a certain phycial location. Jesus NEVER said anything to that effect. I was not in a "false" church (actaully I was because they said the SAME things you do) and that is why I know your docterines and I know they are wrong. I have told you time and time again how your theology about the church of Christ being the ONLY church is wrong and how it ONLY takes faith to be saved.

Did you all ever notice that not one single time does the Bible say, "church of Christ?" Nope. Chuch of God. Church of the living God. Church of the firstborn. And then the sundry references to local churches, but never one time to the "church of Christ." So, uh, what do we care about the rules to get into the Church of Christ denomination?

I have to appologize ed if you think I am attacking you. Upon prayer and reading that again I think it could be taken that way. I am not attacking you but I am attacking the false teaching of the church of Christ.

"1) Jesus is a man. Jesus says so himself in John 8:40. The apostles also taught that Jesus is a man (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5)."

Agreed. but not just a man, for a man can't be perfect. A man can't do what Jesus did. a man can't forgive sins.

"2) Jesus is NOT God. Jesus taught that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). If Jesus says the Father is the only true God, we can't see how Jesus can also be God in addition to the Father."

This is wrong..Just read the first chapter of John, or that passage in Luke, or the I am statement Jesus made. Jesus said he was God and also went a step further by showing he was God.

"3) One must DO the will of God in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Matt. 7:21."

wrong again. it is by faith alone you are saved. Works show that you are saved to an outside observer but God knows the heart. By the way Mat 7:21 proves my point..it is NOT by outside actions it is ONLY by true faith ALONE.

"4) One must become a member of the body or church of Christ to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in John 10:9."

You are adding onto this verse. NO WHERE DOES IT MENTION THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. It says that those that enter by christ..not through just a specific church..try again ed.

"5) One must be baptized and added to the church of Christ in order to be saved. This is Jesus' instruction as recorded in Mark 16:16."

wrong again. Show me the verse that says you are condemned if you are not baptised? Do that and I will agree with you. Until then you have NOT proved your point.

"Which one of these doctrines is false Louis?"

All of except that first one ed.

"A false teacher must have taught you that Jesus had to be God to forgive sins. The Bible does not teach this doctrine.

The Jesus who said he has the power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10) is the same Jesus who said he is a man (John 8:40) and is also the same Jesus whom God exalted to His right hand to be Prince and savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

Ed, sin is ulitimatly against God and only God can forgive it. The pharisees recognized this why don't you? This is one of the many ways Jesus was showing he was God in actions. Yes, this is the same Jesus who said I am..the SAME name of God used in the OT. He also initated a new relationship with God..who can do that but God alone..no mere man can because a mere man is flawed. Why do you think that in Luke and in mark they said , "Whe does this fellow talk like that ITS BLASPHEMY!! Who can forgive sins BUT GOD ALONE." Ed, blasphy is making yourself equal to God (ie saying I AM GOD). Get it?

"You mean Jesus is wrong because what he says in John 17:3 does not agree with your belief that Jesus is God! "

No, it agrees EXACTLY with what I said. THREE IN ONE. There is only one God expressed in three parts, each equal to each other and totally distinctive.

"that Jesus says the Father is the only true God. Unless you can show me the verse which quotes Jesus as saying that he is God, then I would say that you are only making this up."

I as well as several other people have shown you..If you have ears ed, then HEAR.

"Can't you see that those who are fond of saying 'Lord, Lord' are those who believe that they are saved by faith alone?"

:lol: no ed, those are the ones WITHOUT true faith. God sees the heart you cannot fool him by saying Lord Lord. It takes true faith..that's all, not lip service. That is what that verse is saying.

"What do you enter by Christ? "

You enter Christ by faith Ed. That is what is preached in the bible. (see your bible for details )

"Entering the flock or church of Christ by him means becoming a member of the church of Christ by the doctrines taught by Christ."

No ed, the "church of christ" is mentioned NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE AND DIDN'T EXSIST UNTIL MANY MANY YEARS LATER.

"You mean Jesus is wrong again because what he says does not agree with your belief that baptism is not necessary for salvation."

Show me where it says if you are not baptised you are not saved.

"Do you realize that you just called Christ a false teacher? These are Christ's doctrines, not mine and you just said these doctrines are false!"

You're the false teacher ed, one of the ones The Christ and Paul warned us about. You take verses out of context, add things in and pull ideas out of the air and put verses together that don't even refer to the same topic to prove your point.

I wonder if Ed takes pleasure in ignoring my posts.

"Louis, you are thinking like a Pharisee. You are saying that Jesus blasphemed by making himself equal to God. You and the Pharisees wrongly/b] accuse Jesus of blasphemy because Jesus n claimed he was God or equal to God."

:lol: Ed, now you're adding into the bible! I just quoted what they said, that's all. they said he blasphemed..not me He WAS in actions claiming to be God.

"I have tried my best to refrain from saying this but you have been saying things that are directly contrary to what the Bible says. John 17:3 does not say that God is expressed in three parts. But you say it does. "

Ed the only one that is lying here is you. You take things out of context and you discount parts of the bible itself! Just look at John 1:18 in context. John calls Jesus God the one and only in my translation..what does it say in yours? John CLEARLY thinks that Jesus claimed to be God and it shows through in his works.

"You and others have not shown any verse which clearly says that Jesus is God. "

Yes we have, you just refuse to see the truth. These are not personal interpretations but these views have been held for hundereds of years, even by the apolstles and Jesus himself!

"For example, "I AM" doesn't mean Jesus is God. "I and the Father are one" doesn't mean Jesus is God. "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" doesn't mean Jesus is God."

What do you think they mean the Ed. If I say I am one with something then I am that something. Jesus said I am one with God and hence he is saying I am God. The I am statement goes back to who God called HIMSELF in the OT. Read if for yourself.

"The verse is very clear: only those who do the WILL of God will enter the kingdom of heaven."

Yes ed, but like the other verses in the bible you have to mesh them will ALL of the bible. That's what context is. This meshes perfectly with the idea that true faith saves for doing God's will is a natural result of that. So it is true. Try again ed.

"The question is "what" not "how". You mean you enter the physical body of Christ Louis? How can you do that by faith when Christ is in heaven? "

You think we have to physically enter the body of Christ???? Now YOU are adding things into the bible ed. That is a symbolic statement. Just look at the context ed. can't you see it or have you blinded yourself to the truth?

"Try Romans 16:16 Louis. "

:lol: you pull docterine from Paul making a greeting and in only ONE verse in the WHOLE bible? Wow ed, that's like saying, I see a piece of blue grass so all the grass in the world must be blue. Second, that is a TRANSLATION. Not the actual words..so try again check your greek bible for more info.

"The Bible doesn't say precisely that "if you re not baptized you are not saved". "

Exactly..case closed..thanks for saying you can't find it Ed, and being honest. I'll stick with you don't have to be baptised to be saved because I can find verses where it says if you dont' believe you are condemned and if you believe you are saved. Thanks for trying ed, better luck next time.

"I now realize how futile it is to discuss spiritual things with someone who only pretends to believe the Bible or picks only the verses that seem to support his beliefs."

If you think that ed then move on, I'll just continue to point out how your views are NOT biblical.

OK, Ed...

King James Version here:

"1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Break it down. Who is the subject of the verse?

"No man hath seen God at any time" - here it is God

"the only begotten Son" - here it is the "Son".

"which is in the bosom of the Father" - here it is the Father.

First, Joyhun is referring to the same being (God) thorugh this entire verse.. that is clear. Now, this verse is a good verse to use in support of the Trinity:

First John talks about God., then refers to the Son and the Father, and yet Johnis talking about the same being here the whole time.

John is describing Jesus, the Son, and points out to the reader that No one has seen GOd, who is the begotten Son or the Father.

Later on we see John saying "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" This fits with the vers above, becasue God, who is the Father, did give His only begotten Son, who is Jesus Christ.

1x1x1=1

God (the father) gave God (the Son) to us. The Son is begotten of the Father, and both are the same God.

John carefully explains this relationship between man, Holy Spirit and God, later on.

John 1:32

And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

MIcael.. Huh? what does this have to do with anything in the topic? I am talking about who the subject of the verse was.. not about relations ships, blah blah blah.. don't try and start fires....

Zone, it doesn't matter, he can't explain that verse at all. John chapter 1 clearly says that Jesus is God..plain and simple. Just ask a english prof.. all inspiration aside. The words themselves speak very clearly on this. Ed and Micheal just don't wanna believe it.

edpobre- I finally found another member of the church!!! the 3rd one. why was this guy banned????

im a member of the coburg road church of Christ. i dont believe that your church has to be named (location) church of Christ for you to be saved. i know people who do believe that though. theyre silly folk.

onetruechurch said:

edpobre- I finally found another member of the church!!! the 3rd one. why was this guy banned????

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What church are you talking about?