What it Means to Become a Member of the Church of Christ

Josephus · Aug 6, 2001

"But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

Ed, you're great at highlighting words. My turn. Look that the "even" indicates an "adding" to those who are not "even."

In one breath you say Jesus died for all sinners, and in the next, you say Jesus died only for the church. Well, the church didn't even exist when Jesus died. Jever never said he died for the church. He said he came to save that which was lost already. There was no such thing as the "Church of Christ." Heck, even the first person to enter Heaven as a result of his faith in Christ was a thief on a cross, and I doubt he probably never went once to a synagogue in his life.

Acts 20:28 was written by Paul or Luke, told by Paul or Luke. That verse isn't even Jesus' words. Jesus never said he died for the church alone. In fact it this verse is Paul or Luke addressing leadership of a particular flock (group) of believers. If the whole of believers called themselves the Church of God, then it doesn't make sense why Paul or Luke would address shepherds and not apostles since the real definition for someone in a shepherding office of groups of entire churches are in fact called apostles and not shepherds! But we know this letter isn't addressed to the Apostles because the writer is writing for those who haven't seen what the apostles have seen, otherwise he wouldn't need to write this letter! So instead this verse proves that the letter is written to shepherds of a PARTICULAR flock of certain believers - a flock that Jesus had too died for as the verse continues on to say that his reasons for dying included them.

"Those who are not members of the church of Christ
remain sinners and are not children of God."

I wish to see an exact scripture that says that only members of the Church of Christ are saved.

The only classes of people as far as salvation is concerned are those who have recieved and accepted what Jesus already did for them, and those that have not recieved his atoning work for their lives.

"There is no Biblical basis for this statement."

There is: John 3:18. The "name" in Jewish idiomology means "to encompass all that a person is, their identity, their very being, and what they have done, what they are doing now, and what they will be doing in the future." Look it up sometime.

Put that in the verse, and you get nearly exactly what I wrote above.

"You are right my friend. Redemption is found only IN Jesus Christ - that is, INSIDE his body, the church of Christ."

No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.

"Acts 19:23 does not say that the group was called "the Way." Let's see what the verse says: "At about that time, there was great commotion about the Way." "

Hey Ed, this was NOT a dispute about HOW to be saved, but rather a dispute about these group of believers vs. society. Society was questioning them - not other members in the church. Obviously since it is a dispute about the group, the Way is the name associated with them (early archeological documents prove that there was no official name for the Christians other than "The Way" until many years after Christ's death). In fact this is so much the case that there is now a church group that calls itself "The Way" just like the "Church of Christ" calls itself off of a possible name found in scripture. And names are just that Ed: descriptions of what they are about. "The Way" was most certainly about the way of salvation, just like the Church of Christ is most certainly a church about Jesus Christ.

I pray you get better at reading scripture for what it really says - and to find out what it really says.

carma · Aug 6, 2001

Yes Ed, you have basically said, in not so many words, there is only one church to which you must belong, to obtain salvation.

Now, straight out Ed, can someone that is a member of any other denomination other than the Church of Christ denomination, be saved?

Oh and Ed, it was called "The Way".

LouisBooth · Aug 6, 2001

Ed just one question. Can you show me the greek words for "church of Christ" and show me the scripture reference you refer to? I would like to see those exact words.

edpobre · Aug 8, 2001

Josephus,

You wrote:

"But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

Ed, you're great at highlighting words. My turn. Look that the "even" indicates an "adding" to those who are not "even."

The word "even" simply means that even those who believe in his name are given the right to become children of God. But how can one believe Jesus unless he receives him first?

You wrote:

In one breath you say Jesus died for all sinners, and in the next, you say Jesus died only for the church. Well, the church didn't even exist when Jesus died. Jever never said he died for the church. He said he came to save that which was lost already. There was no such thing as the "Church of Christ." Heck, even the first person to enter Heaven as a result of his faith in Christ was a thief on a cross, and I doubt he probably never went once to a synagogue in his life.

The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation. Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32).

You wrote:

Acts 20:28 was written by Paul or Luke, told by Paul or Luke. That verse isn't even Jesus' words. Jesus never said he died for the church alone. In fact it this verse is Paul or Luke addressing leadership of a particular flock (group) of believers. If the whole of believers called themselves the Church of God, then it doesn't make sense why Paul or Luke would address shepherds and not apostles since the real definition for someone in a shepherding office of groups of entire churches are in fact called apostles and not shepherds! But we know this letter isn't addressed to the Apostles because the writer is writing for those who haven't seen what the apostles have seen, otherwise he wouldn't need to write this letter! So instead this verse proves that the letter is written to shepherds of a PARTICULAR flock of certain believers - a flock that Jesus had too died for as the verse continues on to say that his reasons for dying included them.

This is the danger of defending a false doctrine. It gets you farther away from the word of God and in the end, you turn you against the word of God.

Ed: "Those who are not members of the church of Christ remain sinners and are not children of God."

You: I wish to see an exact scripture that says that only members of the Church of Christ are saved.

You cannot always find exact scripture for what God teaches. But even if there were (like John 8:40 and John 17:3), you still would not believed it unless you are truly seeking the truth.

Gal. 4:4-5 says that God sent Jesus to redeem those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons of God. Redemption can only be found in the church that Christ purchased with his own blood (Col. 1:13-14; Acts 20:2

. Thus, only those who are INSIDE the Chruch of christ are redeemed by the blood of Christ and receive adoption as children of God. This should make clear where you stand my friend.

You: The only classes of people as far as salvation is concerned are those who have recieved and accepted what Jesus already did for them, and those that have not recieved his atoning work for their lives.

Ed: "There is no Biblical basis for this statement."

You: There is: John 3:18. The "name" in Jewish idiomology means "to encompass all that a person is, their identity, their very being, and what they have done, what they are doing now, and what they will be doing in the future." Look it up sometime.

Put that in the verse, and you get nearly exactly what I wrote above.

This is the reason why we have so many false churches. We have so many false teachers who will squeeze anything into a verse to make it fit wht they teach.

Ed: "You are right my friend. Redemption is found only IN Jesus Christ - that is, INSIDE his body, the church of Christ."

You: No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.

If you want to impose your will on God, go ahead!

Ed: Acts 19:23 does not say that the group was called "the Way." Let's see what the verse says: "At about that time, there was great commotion about the Way." "

You: Hey Ed, this was NOT a dispute about HOW to be saved, but rather a dispute about these group of believers vs. society. Society was questioning them - not other members in the church. Obviously since it is a dispute about the group, the Way is the name associated with them (early archeological documents prove that there was no official name for the Christians other than "The Way" until many years after Christ's death).

The Bible attests that this was a dispute about HOW to be saved. This was "law of Moses" VS "faith in Christ." This was "circumcision" VS "non-circumcision." Christ said he will build HIS church. Would Christ call HIS church by any other name?

You wrote: In fact this is so much the case that there is now a church group that calls itself "The Way" just like the "Church of Christ" calls itself off of a possible name found in scripture. And names are just that Ed: descriptions of what they are about. "The Way" was most certainly about the way of salvation, just like the Church of Christ is most certainly a church about Jesus Christ.[/quote]

The "WAY" is about the Church of Christ. And the Church of Christ is not about Jesus. The Church of Christ is the body of Christ that he created in himself with him as head where he gathers people in order to reconcile them to God. The Church of Christ is where redemption is found, the forgiveness of sins because as head of the church, Jesus can die for the sins of his body.

Ed

edpobre · Aug 8, 2001

Carma,

You wrote:

Yes Ed, you have basically said, in not so many words, there is only one church to which you must belong, to obtain salvation.

Now, straight out Ed, can someone that is a member of any other denomination other than the Church of Christ denomination, be saved?

Oh and Ed, it was called "The Way".

Only members of the true Church of Christ will be saved according to the Bible. Membership in the true Church of Christ is open to everyone regardless or race, nationality, color or gender.

All you have to do is receive Jesus through the ministers of the church, listen to the true gospel by these ministers, believe the gospel, repent and be converted and get baptized in order to be added to the true Church of christ.

Ed

edpobre · Aug 8, 2001

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

Ed just one question. Can you show me the greek words for "church of Christ" and show me the scripture reference you refer to? I would like to see those exact words.

Have you become like Thomas? Do you remember what Jesus said to him? Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet have believed."

Ed

LouisBooth · Aug 8, 2001

"Have you become like Thomas? Do you remember what Jesus said to him? Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet have believed.""

:lol: in other words what you are saying is not biblical right ed?

Still waiting.."Can you show me the greek words for "church of Christ" and show me the scripture reference you refer to? I would like to see those exact words. "

Even christ showed thomas Ed...there is nothing wrong with asking.

another question would be..the theif on the cross as ryan brings up..he did no works and was not baptised..but he was in "paradise" with christ..this is often assumed to be heaven.

Josephus · Aug 8, 2001

"But how can one believe Jesus unless he receives him first?"

Ed, the demons believe, and shudder. James 2:19. But they can't recieve Jesus. One can believe Jesus but not recieve Him.

"The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation."

As far as I am concerned, even one exception negates the whole rule. Look at Jesus using David's exception when his disciples plucked grain and ate them in Matthew 12:2-5

1 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

It is logical to assume the spiritual truths are only truths when they are truth all the time. If the thief is an exception to a "truth" being defended then the "truth" being defended isn't a truth all the time, and thus isn't really a truth to base doctrine on. As far as I know, God never grants anyone an exception to any spiritual truth that applies to all men.

"Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32)."

The church didn't exist at all during the days between Jesus' death and resurrection. Heck forget that - when Jesus DIED, there was no church to die for because they all abandoned him that night after he was arrested! Notice that all of them went back to their normal lives, like the fishermen going back to their nets. Judas hung himself. The group was no more. But when Jesus rose himself from the dead (and I don't know of any man that can do that by himself as Jesus claimed he would and did) everything changed.

You: There is: John 3:18. The "name" in Jewish idiomology means "to encompass all that a person is, their identity, their very being, and what they have done, what they are doing now, and what they will be doing in the future." Look it up sometime.

Put that in the verse, and you get nearly exactly what I wrote above.

This is the reason why we have so many false churches. We have so many false teachers who will squeeze anything into a verse to make it fit wht they teach.

And there are those who will always refuse to study scripture for themselves to show themselves approved and instead will blindly believe what somebody else says that seems most comfortable to them.

You: No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.

If you want to impose your will on God, go ahead!

I don't see how this is imposing my will on God. It is truth I have discovered for myself:
Salvation is only in and from the person of Jesus Christ - not his "body of believers":
Psalm 37:39
Psalm 62:1
Romans 3:24
Ephesians 1:7
Col 1:14

and to your last point:

the Way was the name given to this group:
Acts 24:14

carma · Aug 8, 2001

The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation. Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32).

The Church was not born until Pentecost. Maybe you should read the first few chapters of Acts again. Jesus said a lot in the first chapter of Acts. The Church was not born until the Holy Spirit came to man and that did not happen until Jesus left.

Tell us ed, what is the true Church of Christ?

Why are you avoiding this question?

As I understand it there are many "Church of Christ", so which one is the only correct one...the "one that can save" a person? Here all the time I foolishly believed that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was what saved and you are telling me that having my name on the membership roll of a certain Church of Christ is what is required.

Too bad Jesus didn't know that, looks like He went to the cross for nothing.......or for only one branch of one denomination.

Stop beating around the bush ed, if you are really so concerned, seems you wouldn't keep a secret of the name of the Church that alone, can save us.

ZoneChaos · Aug 9, 2001

Good point Carma.. ther is a "Church of Christ" down the street from me, and they don't even have a membership of anykind... /shrug

edpobre · Aug 12, 2001

LouisBooth,

another question would be..the theif on the cross as ryan brings up..he did no works and was not baptised..but he was in "paradise" with christ..this is often assumed to be heaven.

Again, your asssumption that the thief is in heaven is wrong. This is what you get when you listen to preachers who are not sent by God. You get the wrong message.

Ask yourself these questions LB:

1) Did the thief go to heaven ahead of Christ? Where's the scripture that says this?

2) Did the thief go with Christ to heaven? Acts 1:11 sys Jesus went up to heaven alone.

3) Did the thief go to heaven after Christ went to heaven? Where's the scripture that says this?

4) Does the thief deserve to go to heaven ahead of King David? If your answer is yes, please show me proof of this. If your answer is no, then why would the thief go ahead of King David who was dead and remained buried on the day the book of Acts was written (Acts 2:29-30)?

Regarding the name of the church that Christ built ask yourself these questions:

1) Christ built HIS Church. Would he name it after Martin Luther or any other name?

2) Christ is the head of the church, his body. Would the body have a name that is different from the head? Christ is the name of the head. Would his body be called body of Ellen White?

Again, you are being deceived by the devil through your reliance on Greek. The church, whatever it is called in Greek, is the body of Christ. It is not a building as Catholics and Protestant believe a church is. Christ being the head of HIS body naturally calls HIS body the BODY OF CHRIST. Since his body is the [/b]church[/b] (Col. 1:1

, then HIS church is called CHURCH OF CHRIST.

Thus, Apostle Paul called the members of HIS body, churches of Christ (Rom. 16:16). And the Lamsa translatioin of Acts 20:28 calls the church that Christ purchased with his own blood Church of Christ.

Ed

edpobre · Aug 12, 2001

Josephus,

But how can one believe Jesus unless he receives him first?"

Ed, the demons believe, and shudder. James 2:19. But they can't recieve Jesus. One can believe Jesus but not recieve Him.

Please tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first? What is your understanding of "receiving Jesus?" Apostle Paul says in Rom. 10:14-15 that one cannot believe believe Jesus unless he hears him. And one cannot hear Jesus unless there is a preacher. And one cannot preach unless he is sent. So tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first?

"The thief was fortunate because Jesus was around to grant him an exception to God's plan of salvation."

As far as I am concerned, even one exception negates the whole rule. Look at Jesus using David's exception when his disciples plucked grain and ate them in Matthew 12:2-5

1 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread--which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

It is logical to assume the spiritual truths are only truths when they are truth all the time. If the thief is an exception to a "truth" being defended then the "truth" being defended isn't a truth all the time, and thus isn't really a truth to base doctrine on. As far as I know, God never grants anyone an exception to any spiritual truth that applies to all men.

Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

If this command was abolished when the thief was assured salvation without baptism on the cross, why did apostle Peter exhort his listeners to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:3

? Why did the apostles baptize believers (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:31-33)?

Just as Jesus could forgive sins when he was on earth, he could also grant salvation to whomever he wished to without contradicting his command.

"Your assumption that the church didn't even exist when Jesus died reveals your ignorance of the word of God. The church started with 12 apostles and Christ called them his "little flock" (Luke 12:32)."

The church didn't exist at all during the days between Jesus' death and resurrection. Heck forget that - when Jesus DIED, there was no church to die for because they all abandoned him that night after he was arrested! Notice that all of them went back to their normal lives, like the fishermen going back to their nets. Judas hung himself. The group was no more. But when Jesus rose himself from the dead (and I don't know of any man that can do that by himself as Jesus claimed he would and did) everything changed.

Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

You: And there are those who will always refuse to study scripture for themselves to show themselves approved and instead will blindly believe what somebody else says that seems most comfortable to them.

How true! The Trinity doctrine is proof of what you said. The belief that Jesus is God is not in the Bible yet people believe it because it is comfortable to them.

You: No, redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, not a body of believers. I am not saved by being a member of someone's church. I am saved by what Jesus Christ did for me.

If you want to impose your will on God, go ahead!

I don't see how this is imposing my will on God. It is truth I have discovered for myself:

Salvation is only in and from the person of Jesus Christ - not his "body of believers":

Read Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25 and Eph. 5:23. These verses prove that Jesus saves through t

Click to expand...

canthappen · Aug 12, 2001

CoC=Catholics without a pope.

Josephus · Aug 12, 2001

[/quote]Please tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first? What is your understanding of "receiving Jesus?"[/quote]

Recieving Jesus means to make Jesus the Savior of your life, as well as making him Lord of your life.

[/quote]
Apostle Paul says in Rom. 10:14-15 that one cannot believe believe Jesus unless he hears him. And one cannot hear Jesus unless there is a preacher. And one cannot preach unless he is sent.[/quote]

What makes you believe in order for someone to hear Jesus that they HAVE to hear it from a preacher? Don't you think that limits God's proven abilities to communicate to people through dreams, through the written word, through visions, angels, and more?

So tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first?

Easy: simply by knowing who Jesus is. One can know God and believe in God, but only those willing (and those alive) are able to make him Savior and Lord of their lives.

Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

Yup.

If this command was abolished when the thief was assured salvation without baptism on the cross, why did apostle Peter exhort his listeners to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:3 ? Why did the apostles baptize believers (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:31-33)?

First, Jesus gave no such requirement to be baptized in water for salvation when he spoke to Nicodemous about what one must do to be saved in John 3:4-6.

Peter asked those who believed to be baptized as it signifigantly identifies them as no longer religious Jews, but now devout Christians. It was such a shift in belief that being baptized was ultimate proof that you were saved, because only those brave enough to know the concequences of baptism would take the risk unless they truly believed in what they were doing - and others could see that. 3000 men Jews alone out of several million that day... those were brave lads.

Just as Jesus could forgive sins when he was on earth, he could also grant salvation to whomever he wished to without contradicting his command.

First, this is a contradiction. You've been saying you have to do this and that to be saved, now you're saying it doesn't matter since Jesus could just pick and choose anyway.

Second, this is incorrect. His command is for us to love God and to love one another. Salvation and making Jesus Lord of our lives depends on us loving God and is proven by us loving people.

Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

How can a church exist if its own believers don't believe what it is? All the disciples DESERTED Jesus and didn't believe. He had to rise from the dead to convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter if they were alive or not. Jesus was dying for you and me friend, not just them - and we didn't even exist - so you can't say that Jesus died for the living church because first that would exclude Jesus dying for us, and second, there was no living church. As far as I am concerned, the church didn't exist at all because NO ONE believed when Jesus died. No one. Romans plainly says that Jesus died for everyone while we were YET sinners. Praise God for His grace in doing this for us.

All we have to do now is simplu recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

God bless.

edpobre · Aug 12, 2001

Carma,

You wrote:

The Church was not born until Pentecost. Maybe you should read the first few chapters of Acts again. Jesus said a lot in the first chapter of Acts. The Church was not born until the Holy Spirit came to man and that did not happen until Jesus left.

I hate these people who taught you false doctrines. They should be accursed! The teaching that the church was not born until Pentecost is false!

Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:4-8 that Jesus was seen by about 500 brethren after he was raised from the dead. The day Jesus ascended to heaven, he was with his apostles (Heb. 1:11). After that Peter stood in the midst of the disciples numbering about a hundred and twenty (Heb. 1:15).
These people composed the church that Christ died for (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:2

. Apostle Paul called these people, "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16).

You wrote:

As I understand it there are many "Church of Christ", so which one is the only correct one...the "one that can save" a person? Here all the time I foolishly believed that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was what saved and you are telling me that having my name on the membership roll of a certain Church of Christ is what is required.

Too bad Jesus didn't know that, looks like He went to the cross for nothing.......or for only one branch of one denomination.

No, Jesus did not go to the cross for nothing. He went to the cross for HIS church (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:2

. You were indeed foolish to believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus saves everyone. It is the church that Jesus will save (Eph. :23).

That's why I'm inviting you to become a member of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days. The church of Christ in the first century was in Greek or Hebrew and it had for its members Jews, and Gentiles who were converted through the preaching of the gospel by Jews. The Iglesia Ni Cristo (true church of Christ in these last days) has for its members Christ's "other sheep" (John 10:9) or those whom apostle Peter said were "afar off" (Acts 2:39).

Ed

edpobre · Aug 12, 2001

Josephus,

Ed: Please tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first? What is your understanding of "receiving Jesus?"

J:Recieving Jesus means to make Jesus the Savior of your life, as well as making him Lord of your life.

That's what it means to you. But what does the Bible say? How do you make Jesus the savior of your life? And how do you make Jesus the Lord of your life? Is making Jesus the savior and Lord of youyr life the Biblical way of receiving Jesus? Please show me the verse!

Ed: Apostle Paul says in Rom. 10:14-15 that one cannot believe Jesus unless he hears him. And one cannot hear Jesus unless there is a preacher. And one cannot preach unless he is sent.

J: What makes you believe in order for someone to hear Jesus that they HAVE to hear it from a preacher? Don't you think that limits God's proven abilities to communicate to people through dreams, through the written word, through visions, angels, and more?

That's not what I think Josephus. That's what the Bible teaches. It's not a question of limiting God's proven abilities. It is a question of what God wants and whether you believe what God wants or not. Read Rom. 10:14-15 again and let it sink in.

Ed: So tell me how one can believe Jesus without receiving him first?

J: Easy: simply by knowing who Jesus is. One can know God and believe in God, but only those willing (and those alive) are able to make him Savior and Lord of their lives.

Again, you are talking from the top of your head and not from the Bible. Show me the verse to support what you are saying.

Ed: Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

J: Yup.

What do you mean by this friend? Please clarify.

Ed: If this command was abolished when the thief was assured salvation without baptism on the cross, why did apostle Peter exhort his listeners to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:3 ? Why did the apostles baptize believers (Acts 2:41, 47; 16:31-33)?

J: First, Jesus gave no such requirement to be baptized in water for salvation when he spoke to Nicodemous about what one must do to be saved in John 3:4-6.

That's the danger of picking verses to fit a doctrine. Just because Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to be baptized doesn't mean that baptism is not relevant. Being born again involves the complete process starting from receiving messengers sent by God, listening to the true gospel they preach, believing the gospel, repenting and being converted, getting baptized and being added into the church or body of Christ.

You wrote:

Peter asked those who believed to be baptized as it signifigantly identifies them as no longer religious Jews, but now devout Christians. It was such a shift in belief that being baptized was ultimate proof that you were saved, because only those brave enough to know the concequences of baptism would take the risk unless they truly believed in what they were doing - and others could see that. 3000 men Jews alone out of several million that day... those were brave lads.

First, what you are saying is a figment of your imagination because it does not have any Biblical basis. That's pure speculation.

Second, baptism into the body of Christ results in redemption by the blood of Christ and forgiveness of sins because it is the body of Christ for whom Christ died. One cannot become a member of the body without getting baptized into it.

Ed: Your statement further reveals your ignorance of the truth. First, as long as there were living members of the church, the Church of Christ exists wherever they may be located. Second, God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). It was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead.

J: How can a church exist if its own believers don't believe what it is? All the disciples DESERTED Jesus and didn't believe. He had to rise from the dead to convince them otherwise. It doesn't matter if they were alive or not. Jesus was dying for you and me friend, not just them - and we didn't even exist - so you can't say that Jesus died for the living church because first that would exclude Jesus dying for us, and second, there was no living church. As far as I am concerned, the church didn't exist at all because NO ONE believed when Jesus died. No one. Romans plainly says that Jesus died for everyone while we were YET sinners. Praise God for His grace in doing this for us.

How can you be included in the letters of apostle Paul when his God is different from yours? In 1 Cor. 8:6 apistle Paul says that for them (he and the Christians at that time) there is only one God, the Father...(one God in one person) Your God is one God in three persons. How can Paul be talking to you?

You wrote:

All we have to do now is simplu recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

Show me the verse that supports your belief. Otherwise, this is a false teaching.

Ed

Josephus · Aug 12, 2001

What does the Bible say about recieving Jesus? How do you make Jesus the savior of your life? And how do you make Jesus the Lord of your life? Is making Jesus the savior and Lord of youyr life the Biblical way of receiving Jesus? Please show me the verse!

You know what, that's actually a pretty good question. I tell you what: as I write the period at the end of this sentence I will take a short moment to pray for God to REVEAL to me scriptures in the bible that answer these very questions.

I just turned to 1 Corinthians 1:17 RANDOMLY in my brand-new (as of two weeks ago), hardly used (maybe five times to read things), never marked-in, pocket bible: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Taking this verse as part of God's answer to what it means to make Jesus your savior: Salvation is not about baptism, and we know that baptism was about bringing people into the church. Paul didn't think this was important, and here it clearly says Paul didn't even believe that that was what God wanted him to do when he was sent! Obviously if God is into saving people and if the road to salvation included baptism, then God either made a mistake or it's not important at all because Paul himself, the Apostle to the Gentiles, didn't believe that was what God had sent him to do as he went and preached.

Now onto your next question. I will do the same thing. After the period is typed at the end of this sentence, I will pray, and let God show me the answer that you need.

I randomly turn to Matthew 6:25
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important thatn good, and the body more important than clothes?"

...oh my goodness. You realized I just sat and pondered about that for a few minutes as to why God would have me randomly flip to that verse? It just now slapped me in the face as I wrote "oh my goodness." Maybe perhaps it's something you already know as you read this, if not, well go ahead and read your John 17:3 thread and my response there. I feel God has just showed you an example of someone making Jesus the Lord of their life. Read about what I have done, my responses in that context (in that I have truly made Jesus the Lord of my life). Notice also what I asked you to tell me. If you don't have anything in recent history or even in memory at all about proving your faith in God and your relationship with Him by your actions, then I really ask you to possibly consider that you haven't made Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. I know that this is tough for you take. But I ask you in tough and honest love, (I'm sorry if this is a slap in the face) to consider and to honestly think about your relationship with God, what it's been, where it's going. Because I feel God is giving you an opportunity now, with me, and he is using me in this moment of time in your life to reach you in a way others probably haven't been able to. I invite you to email me if you have questions or want to carry this conversation off the board. For now, I just want you to know that I am praying for you, that God show you what you really need to see.

God bless,
<><
in Christ,
Ryan

J: Easy: simply by knowing who Jesus is. One can know God and believe in God, but only those willing (and those alive) are able to make him Savior and Lord of their lives.

e: Again, you are talking from the top of your head and not from the Bible. Show me the verse to support what you are saying.

Well, it stands as simple logic. But I can give you scripture:
The Pharisees believed in God, and they knew Jesus, but they didn't believe who Jesus was:
Luke 22:70,71
They didn't believe Jesus, but they knew him and they knew God. They couldn't receive him because they choose not to.

Matthew 25:41-46 is another one. People knew Jesus, but they rejected Him.

And that fits as well with the other point: You can't be saved when you're dead.

Ed: Then you don't believe what Jesus commanded his apostles in Mark 16:15-16 where he said that "he who believes and is baptized will be saved?"

J: Yup.

What do you mean by this friend? Please clarify.

I meant, yup, I do believe. But I also believe what God showed me in 1 Corinthians too about Paul not considering baptism important enough to be something to do when one preaches to unbelievers. Somehow, the two half to be harmonized, and as I see it as being harmonized is that baptism is PROOF of your faith in obedience to Jesus, not a requirement for salvation. Jesus commands us to be baptized for a reason, but not salvation. Baptism is the proof of a good concience towards God, nothing more (1 Peter 3:21 - "not the act of baptism, but the pledge of a good concience towards God" ... go read it for yourself.). If you like, we can open up a seperate topic on baptism.

Just because Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to be baptized doesn't mean that baptism is not relevant.

Yes it does mean that it's not. If Jesus thought it were important for this man to be saved, he'd tell him ALL that he needed to do to be saved. If not, then Jesus was lying. Same thing with the rich man who asked Jesus what he must do to be saved: on top of all that that man had done, Jesus told him to "give up all you have and give it to the poor" - and said nothing of being baptized in water. Again, if it were important for that man's salvation, then Jesus didn't answer his question, but instead told him everything to do except that - and that is what I call an important enough omission to render the 'requirement' null and void towards salvation itself. But don't get me wrong, I believe baptism is important (as I stated what baptism means), but not necessary for salvation itself. Only Christ can save us. We can't save ourselves or finish the work of our faith because we are NOT the author and finisher of it. Again, let's open a seperate topic on the issue if you must.

Being born again involves the complete process starting from receiving messengers sent by God, listening to the true gospel they preach, believing the gospel, repenting and being converted, getting baptized and being added into the church or body of Christ.

No, being born again means just what Jesus meant in response to Nicodemous' EXACT question in John 3:5 and 6. Are you calling Jesus a liar?

I do believe though that making Jesus LORD of our lives is a daily process as James says it is: faith without "proof" is dead.

Second, baptism into the body of Christ results in redemption by the blood of Christ and forgiveness of sins because it is the body of Christ for whom Christ died.

Let me prove to you the incorrect theology this is: So you're saying Jesus didn't die for me? He died for the church. I didn't even exist when he died. I wasn't even a part of the church until I visited one. How could Christ die for me without me being the church yet? So in effect you ARE saying Christ died ONLY for the church and nothing but the church (his body).

As far as I know, Christ died for ALL sinners (check it out in Romans , and as far as I know, not all sinners will be saved. And God sent his son for the entire WORLD - don't contradict John 3:16. It says "God so loved the World" not "God so loved the Church." Tell me if I am wrong. Ed, you gotta realize that what you are writing is not supportable when these things are looked at real hard. Even a cursory look shows where your theology is wrong in areas. Please, I ask you to consider that what I may be saying in regards to my experiences, and my life with God as true.

One cannot become a member of the body without getting baptized into it.

Jesus never baptized his disciples or anyone for that matter. Strange. Yet he still accepted them as his family - as his body.

please please please reconsider some of the doctrine you are sharing. As a friend, I can only tell you that you are wrong, but it is my prayer that God can show you where I am right.

How can you be included in the letters of apostle Paul when his God is different from yours? In 1 Cor. 8:6 apistle Paul says that for them (he and the Christians at that time) there is only one God, the Father...(one God in one person) Your God is one God in three persons. How can Paul be talking to you?

Ok, now we're off track. I think you totally missed my point about the disciples deserting Jesus and they didn't believe in Him when he died. I would rather you respond to my point about this than to debate what I believe or don't believe.

Me: All we have to do now is simplu recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

You: Show me the verse that supports your belief. Otherwise, this is a false teaching.

Ed, may I ask how old you are? I am only 22, yet I knew this when I was 17 simply by reading my bible. Your answers show an unfamiliarity with scripture. Instead, what I am getting over and over is preprogrammed doctrine. This wont work for the kind of discussion I feel could really benefit the both of us. If you really love me, then I would ask that you consider speaking to me on my level. I want you to be yourself and to respond with a true interest for finding out the truth, I want you to dig for scripture on your own, and to read what I write as if you were me. Try to get my mind, and don't stereotype me please. I am a human being. If God has sent you to speak to me, then speak from his heart, not from your mind. We are both in this together.

edpobre · Aug 14, 2001

Josephus,

You wrote:

I just turned to 1 Corinthians 1:17 RANDOMLY in my brand-new (as of two weeks ago), hardly used (maybe five times to read things), never marked-in, pocket bible: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Taking this verse as part of God's answer to what it means to make Jesus your savior: Salvation is not about baptism, and we know that baptism was about bringing people into the church. Paul didn't think this was important, and here it clearly says Paul didn't even believe that that was what God wanted him to do when he was sent! Obviously if God is into saving people and if the road to salvation included baptism, then God either made a mistake or it's not important at all because Paul himself, the Apostle to the Gentiles, didn't believe that was what God had sent him to do as he went and preached.

Of course Paul was not sent to baptize. Otherwise he would be baptizing without preaching the gospel! On the other hand, Paul was sent to preach the gospel. The problem is you don't know what the gospel is Josephus. Does the gospel include baptism or not? Let's see how Paul accomplished his mission and find out if baptism was part of the gospel.

Turn your brand-new Bible to Acts chapter 16 verse 29 where the prison guard falls down trembling before Paul and Silas. In verse 30 he asks them what he should do to be saved. So they said to him (verse 31), " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

What proof does the Bible present to show that the prison guard and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ?

Verse 32 says Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in the house. Verse 33 says they were immediately baptized. And only after all were baptized does the Bible say that the prison guard rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Apparently, you misunderstood what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 1:17.

You wrote:

If you don't have anything in recent history or even in memory at all about proving your faith in God and your relationship with Him by your actions, then I really ask you to possibly consider that you haven't made Jesus Christ the Lord of your life. I know that this is tough for you take. But I ask you in tough and honest love, (I'm sorry if this is a slap in the face) to consider and to honestly think about your relationship with God, what it's been, where it's going.

You really don't know how Jesus is Lord of one's life. And you can't have any relationship with God if you haven't been reconciled to Him.

The Bible teaches that Christ has authority over the church and the church submits itself to Christ and he i the savior of the church, his body (Eph. 5:23-24 TEV). Thus, if you really want to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you have to become a member of his body, the church because it is the church that has a relationship with Christ.

To be reconciled to God, you have to be in his body, the church (Eph. 2:16; Col. 1:21-22).

You wrote:

So in effect you ARE saying Christ died ONLY for the church and nothing but the church (his body).

I'm not saying this. The Bible does. Christ is the savior of the church (Eph. 5:23). Christ gave his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). Christ purchased the church with his blood (Acts 20:2

.

You wrote:

As far as I know, Christ died for ALL sinners (check it out in Romans , and as far as I know, not all sinners will be saved. And God sent his son for the entire WORLD - don't contradict John 3:16. It says "God so loved the World" not "God so loved the Church." Tell me if I am wrong.

You're wrong Josephus. While it's true that God so loved the world that He sent His son to save the entire world, only those who believe in him shall not perish. And you find those who truly believed in him in the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days.

Ed: How can you be included in the letters of apostle Paul when his God is different from yours? In 1 Cor. 8:6 apostle Paul says that for them (he and the Christians at that time) there is only one God, the Father...(one God in one person) Your God is one God in three persons. How can Paul be talking to you?

J: Ok, now we're off track. I think you totally missed my point about the disciples deserting Jesus and they didn't believe in Him when he died. I would rather you respond to my point about this than to debate what I believe or don't believe.

I am not debating what you believe or don't believe. My point is you cannot use Paul's letters to support your beliefs because Paul is not talking to you. He is talking to members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, the true church of Christ in these last days, the church where I am an individual member of.

J: All we have to do now is simply recieve him by making him Savior of our lives (accepting his work of atonement for us), and making Him Lord of our lives (by living as a daily sacrifice).

Ed: Show me the verse that supports your belief. Otherwise, this is a false teaching.

J: Ed, may I ask how old you are? I am only 22, yet I knew this when I was 17 simply by reading my bible. Your answers show an unfamiliarity with scripture. Instead, what I am getting over and over is preprogrammed doctrine.

How can you say I'm unfamiliar with scripture when you haven't shown me any to support your belief?

You wrote:

This wont work for the kind of discussion I feel could really benefit the both of us. If you really love me, then I would ask that you consider speaking to me on my level.

I can't stoop down to your level and say things from the top of my head. I don't have any opinion on the issues that we are discussing. I only say things that the Bible teaches. The moment I let go of the word of God, we would both be blind men leading each other without any sense of where we are going.

You wrote:

I want you to be yourself and to respond with a true interest for finding out the truth, I want you to dig for scripture on your own, and to read what I write as if you were me. Try to get my mind, and don't stereotype me please. I am a human being. If God has sent you to speak to me, then speak from his heart, not from your mind. We are both in this together

Click to expand...

If you can't give scriptures to support your belief, then say so. I don't have to dig scripture for my own because I'm sure that what you are saying is not supported by scripture. I have heard this false way of accepting Christ as Lord and savior long before you were born and up to now, nobody has given me any verse to support it. So I know it's crap.

Why don't you look up the verses I posted with this topic if you are really seeking the truth. Perhaps God will have mercy on you and remove your blinders that you may come to the knowledge of the truth.

LouisBooth · Aug 14, 2001

"If you can't give scriptures to support your belief, then say so. I don't have to dig scripture for my own because I'm sure that what you are saying is not supported by scripture. I have heard this false way of accepting Christ as Lord and savior long before you were born and up to now, nobody has given me any verse to support it. So I know it's crap."

Okay ed, I have been silent but what you are saying is "crap". We have over and over given you biblical support for our belief as christians and you just refuse to believe it. We show you that you are wrong in your readings of scripture through other verses in the bible but again you just refuse to accept it. The verses you post are 1. out of context 2. don't even say the things you say they do (like the word father in John 17:9, or whatever verse you use there) or 3. you are just wrong about it because of yet again context. You are wrong Ed, I grew up in a church of christ and saw the wrongness of it. I saw the distortion of the bible they do, the false teachings they spread. I have seen it first hand. I have seen how you shun people for what they believe. This is NOT what Jesus stood for and I am tired of you preaching a false message.

edpobre · Aug 18, 2001

LouisBooth,

ED: "If you can't give scriptures to support your belief, then say so. I don't have to dig scripture for my own because I'm sure that what you are saying is not supported by scripture. I have heard this false way of accepting Christ as Lord and savior long before you were born and up to now, nobody has given me any verse to support it. So I know it's crap."

LB:o kay ed, I have been silent but what you are saying is "crap". We have over and over given you biblical support for our belief as christians and you just refuse to believe it. We show you that you are wrong in your readings of scripture through other verses in the bible but again you just refuse to accept it. The verses you post are 1. out of context 2. don't even say the things you say they do (like the word father in John 17:9, or whatever verse you use there) or 3. you are just wrong about it because of yet again context. You are wrong Ed,

It is not enough to say you are wrong Ed. You say that John 17:3 doesn't even mention the word "father." And to you that proves that Jesus is not referring to the Father. You keep talking of context but you simply conveniently disregard context when it goes against your belief. Why don't you back up to verse 1 (this means context, right?) and find out whom Christ was talking to?

You wrote:

I grew up in a church of christ and saw the wrongness of it. I saw the distortion of the bible they do, the false teachings they spread. I have seen it first hand.

You grew up in a false church of Christ Louis. Like your present church, they definitely distort scriptures either.

You wrote:

I have seen how you shun people for what they believe. This is NOT what Jesus stood for and I am tired of you preaching a false message.

Again, you are falsely accusing me of something I don't do. I haven't shunned peope for what they believe. As you can see, I'm still talking to you. The truth is, what you are sying ws what the Pharisees were saying during the time of Christ.

Ed

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