One Gospel? Lets See, shall we?

foundinHim · Oct 21, 2006

biblebeliever123 said:
Was Jesus was a member of the "body of Christ" while on earth,
Did Jesus know about the body of Christ while on earth?

Do you believe the Jewish Apostles of Jesus Christ will ascend into heaven?

if you believe they are to be bound to earth, in the resurrection,
will those believing the MAD doctrine then be in heaven, ruling over the Apostles of Jesus Christ, who will be on earth, then, in the resurrection?

......................................
While on earth Jesus Christ was a minister of the CIRCUMCISION.

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ came to Israel as their Messiah offering them a literal, physical earthly kingdom where they (the nation Israel) would be the channel of blessing. Can you show where Christ in his earthly ministry to Israel ever claimed to be the head of the church which is his body? Everything that Christ did and taught while He walked on earth was designed to bring the people of Israel back into line with the promises made to them (Gen. 12:3, Gen. 13:15, Gen. 13:14,15) so that Israel could be the channel of blessing to the rest of the earth. THe Israelites of that generation would not submit to Christ's authority. They rejected their Messiah (He was not head of a church yet...the body of Christ had not been started yet, it began with the mystery revealed to Paul by the risen, ascended, glorified Lord)
They rejected Him ...they would not have 'this man' to rule over them...they said 'we have no king but Caesar'. (Luke 19:14, John 19:15)
In the early part of Acts Peter called the nation Israel once again to repentance, that is a change of mind to acknowledge Christ as their messiah. Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Israel again rejected his offer. These promises have been postponed (for a season while God is declaring grace and peace, holding back his wrath against the day of wrath...Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.) but the promises made to Israel will be fulfilled. They will be the channel of blessing again. Through the RISE of Israel (which is according to prophecy) the nations will be blessed and come to God. The ministry of Christ begun in his earthly ministry will be brought to completion. According to MYSTERY we gentiles are saved because of the setting aside/ the fall of Israel. Now God is building a body of believers, that is the ONE NEW MAN, the church which is His body with Christ as the HEAD.
Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Christ....who is God manifest in the flesh with all the attributes of God...would of course be ominscient knowing all things. His ministry though while on earth was to Israel (see the above verses, also read Matth, Mark, Luke, John showing that His ministry and message and offer of the kingdom was to Israel). It was not time for the mystery which was hid in himself to be revealed.
1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Obviously He kept the secret until He revealed it to Paul to in turn reveal to all of us through the epistles of Paul. Had they known they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory. That was why it was hidden in Himself to be revealed at the right time.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME.
1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
We see Paul here is what you could call 'the due time testifier'.

The 12 apostles have an earthly hope and calling. From the beginning of scripture God created the heaven and the earth....two realms....both to be occupied. One does not LORD IT OVER the other. They (the 12 apostles and the Little flock kingdom church) have an earthly hope. They will be the channel of blessing for all nations coming into the 1000 year kingdom of heaven on earth.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
This of course is prophecy (not mystery....keep in mind the manifold wisdom of God, prophecy and mystery) that the restored nation of Israel has an earthly hope.

WE who have trusted the finished crosswork of Christ as all sufficient payment for the debt and penalty of our sin, who have been baptized by one Spirit into one body have a heavenly hope. No one is claiming it's better or worse than Israel...never have I ever heard a dispensational teacher or believer say that we the body of Christ will rule over Israel.. don't know where you came up with that one!
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christhilippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Actually through out Paul's epistles (Romans through Philemon) you will see many references to our heavenly hope and calling as members of the church which is his body, with Christ as the Head of that Body.

Another wonderful post bibleveliever123, my beloved sister in Christ!

@ yeshuasavedme:

I am a she, not a he. I hope bb123's answers are sufficient for you and your unlearned questions. I also don't know where you come up with some of these ideas about us, the true believers/ members of the body of Christ. I do not appreciate you putting any man-made label/name on me. I am not identified with any man either...but I am identified with Christ Jesus, my Risen Lord!!!

Christ Jesus is the Head of the body ("the church of God") and I am a member of His body.

And to answer you about a future event, let us refer to Rev.21:1-2 first...
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, COMING DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

What are these Scriptures saying? Here is some more answers to your questions...

(Rev.21:10)
"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, DESCENDING out of heaven from God, "

(Rev.21:12-14)
"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:
On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of THE TWELVE APOSTLES of the Lamb."

JMWHALEN · Oct 21, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
Jesus used it. Paul used it, Peter used it, James used it, John used it, Job used it, Daniel used it, Jude used it -and so do I.
It totally rebukes the false teachings of MAD thousands of years before the doctrines of MAD were invented.

So I can see why you don't want it brought into the light -it exposes the bankruptcy of your doctrines.

_________________
The confused world of yeshusavedmed

Originally Posted by biblebeliever123

The book of Enoch was thrown out into the garbage...too bad it didn't stay there.

"Jesus used it. Paul used it, Peter used it, James used it, John used it, Job used it, Daniel used it, Jude used it -and so do I."-yeshusavedme

By this "argument", a brief comment, leaving aside, for now, a discussion of the the merits of inclusion of the book of Enoch as part of inspired scripture:

1. Let all open the back of the Holy Bible; immediately after Revelation 22:21, and start writing "some more Bible"-"The Book of Enoch."

2. While we are at it, how about "writing some more Bible"-a book about those Greek "gods" Paul talks about in Acts 17? Perhaps "The Book of THE UNKNOWN GOD(17:23)? Or perhaps "The Book of Poets"(17:28). Paul "USED" these.

3. By yeshuasavedme's "argument", the following is "scripture", since the LORD God "USED" the following:

- the book of the wars of the LORD(Numbers 21:14)
-the book of Jasher(Joshua 10:13, 2 Sam. 1:18-"...behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.")
-the book of the acts of Solomon(1 Kings 11:41))
- the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.(1 Kings 14:19..................,)
- the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah(1 Kings 14:29....................)
-the book of Samuel the seer, the book of Nathan the prophet, in the book of Gad the seer(1 Chr. 29:29)
-the book of Shemaiah the prophet(2 Chr. 12:15)
-the book of Jehu the son of Hanani(2 Chr. 20:34)
-the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia(Esther 10:2)
-The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite(Nahum 1:1)

Re.2 above, sometimes the Holy Spirit quotes words from secular and human writings, and either thus endorses the truth of the statement, or uses it against those who believed it and accepted it as truth. Besides Acts 17, Paul also quoted non-Biblical sources and on at least two other occasions (1 Corinthians 15:33 and Titus 1:12)

"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies." Titus 1:12

Should we include "The Book of de Oraculis " as inspired scripture?

"Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners." 1 Cor. 15:33

Should we include "The book ofThais of Menander"as inspired scripture?

"The Book of Poets"(17:28)?. This is an exact quotation from Aratus , a native of Tarsus; who, being a poet, had been requested by Antigonus Gonatas , son of Demetrius , and King of Macedonia (273239 b.c. ), to put into poetry an astronomical work of Eudoxus (an astronomer of Cnidus, 403350 b.c. ), called Phainomena . This he did about 270 b.c. , and he called his work Diosemeia ( i.e., the Divine signs ), being a description and explanation of the signs of the Zodiac, and the Constellations, as the Greeks then understood, or rather misunderstood, them.? * ? The poem opens with praise of God ( Zeus or Jupiter), and these words occur in the fifth line:.....................................

From Zeus we lead the strain; He whom mankind
Neer leave unhymned; of Zeus all public ways,
All haunts of men, are full; and full the sea,
And harbours; and of Zeus all stand in need.
We are his off spring; and he, ever good to man,
Gives favouring signs, and rouses us to toil, etc., etc.

from Diosemeia ( i.e., the Divine signs ):

"We are his off spring; ......"

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device." Acts 17: 28,29

Again:

"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies." Titus 1:12

Should we include "The Book of de Oraculis " as inspired scripture? Paul "used" it in the aboce scripture.

"Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners." 1 Cor. 15:33

Should we include "The book ofThais of Menander"as inspired scripture? Paul "used" in the above scripture.

yeshusavedme- "...the mind turned to mush...."-Professor Kingsfield in "the Paper Chase", which is quite appropriate for the false doctrine of yeshuasaved me, as she continually "chases" and "uses" any document that supports her confused, mumbo jumbo doctrine.

In Christ and with Christ,
John M. Whalen

eph3Nine · Oct 22, 2006

JMWHALEN said:
______________

The "punt", the "big el foldo", the "big laydown"

Matt-John, where is the DBR of Jesus preached as the basis for justification from sin?

His response:

"Jesus said in Luke 24:47 that "repentance and remission of sins" should be preached first in Jerusalem - this among ALL nations.'" Apollos1

Is Luke 24:47 prior to the dbr?

No scripture provided in Mt.-John, prior to the dbr, where the 12 preached 1 Cor. 15:1-4-ZIPPO, NADA.

"1.The 12 did not know it-it was hid from them
2. Peter tried to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death.
3. Even after the resurrection, the 12 did not believe it."

His response:

"AFTER the cross the Apostles in Acts 2 were guided into ALL truth - otherwise Jesus was a liar in John 14:23, 16:13. What the disciples may or may not have done or understood prior to this is irrelevant to the "eternal" plan of God saving man - ei. the Gospel!

You also build your theology on a mind-set of the times within Matt-John - and never allow the disciples, their actions, or their beliefs to change. To you, NOTHING changed after the cross! The Apostles learned nothing, taught nothing new, and never changed their actions. But the scriptures teach us that all of these changed for them. See Acts 2!

Because you can see a totally separate and different gospel based on one word, I fear you will never see that "forgiveness of sins" is the same as standing justified before God. I could answer each and every scripture you presented out of context above, and you won't see God's one tru Gospel.

In a prior post above I have given you fodder for the creation of 10 or so more different "gospels"... Go for it!

More tomorrow...."

So, he punts. He cannot cite any scripture, prior to the dbr in Mt-John, where 1 Cor. 15:1-4, "the" gospel, was preached as a basis for justification.

"AFTER the cross the Apostles.... See Acts 2!" -Apollos1

Did you "get that"? AFTER the cross-not before. Thus, he admits there is more than one "the" gospel.

Therefore, the gospel of the kingdom, which was preached by Peter and the 11, by John the baptist, per the Lord Jesus Christ's orders, is not equivalent to "the" gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

"To you, NOTHING changed after the cross."-Apollos1

Where did I say that? Provide my quotes, Hoss.

"one word"-Apollos1

Please explain? I cited numerous scripture.

"Icould answer each and every scripture you presented out of context above, and you won't see God's one tru Gospel"-Apollos1

This is your well thought out, logical "argument"? Translation: "Fourth and....." And I could (fill in the blank)........I am sure there is a point there somewhere in that statement, right? Fill me in.

Please explain each and every scripture that I cited. Let's start with this:

Peter attempts to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death:

"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" Mt. 16:21,22

"...the gospel which I preached unto you....... how that Christ died for our sins...."

Again-Peter attempts to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death:

"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Mark 8:31,32

In Christ and with Christ,
John M. Whalen

Excellent rebuttals, John.

Apollos1 · Oct 24, 2006

FIH 

Last time I said

Whatz your point? I will know how to answer you when you make a point.

(Would you point be that if something is not mentioned in the 4 gospels - then the other 23 books of the New Testament must be separate or teach something else?)

Your reply was:
The point is, that there is a difference between the King & kingdom message and the body of Christ ("the church") message. Also, I was hoping that you would understand that Christ Jesus was never referred to as the Head of the body in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

So your point must be

IF Christ is not mentioned as the Head of the body in the 4 gospels, He cant possibly be the Head of the body right?

OR, because Christ was never mentioned as the Head in the 4 gospels, the 4 gospels MUST be teaching something else other than what Paul taught right?

This is nothing but simple INductive reasoning.

The -4- gospels deal with the life of Christ. ALL TRUTH was supplied to the disciples AFTER Christ died. In Acts 2. This doesnt mean that the disciples with Jesus have a DIFFERENT message, it means that did not YET have the FULL message.

This is what I was hoping you could see.

Apollos1 · Oct 24, 2006

John

We are discussing the things in two threads lets consolidate them together here

Since you are either ignoring what I ask OR missing the points all together (slowing to a snails pace..) I continue.

You said - that nowhere, in Mt.-John, prior to the dbr, was "the" gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 preached by anyone as a basis for justification
What is your point? Did all aspects of salvation and the gospel need to be specifically elucidated in Matt-John to be valid post D-B-R.
Answer: NO! Salvation ws made possible by Christs death on the cross. Whoever did or did not preach/understand the DBR, justification, or salvation prior or post-DBR - none of this can change what was made possible by His death on the cross.

You further stated,- again according to scripture's own testimony, that the 12, including Judas, were preaching a "the" gospel, but it was not 1 Cor. 15:1-4
The disciples emphasized the kingdom to the people (Jews) that kingdom would mean the most to. The coming (spiritual) kingdom was only ONE aspect of the gospel (planned from the foundation of the world/foretold & promised by the prophets) which has many ASPECTS grace, faith, kingdom, salvation, etc. No PhD required glad tidings of many things !

When grace was taught, you do not see a separate gospel. When salvation is taught, you do not see a separate gospel. When faith is taught, you do not see a separate gospel. BUT when the kingdom is taught, you see a separate gospel! Why is that John? Timing? Terminology? Is it because this is what the disciples taught in the beginning of the gospel ??

If the disciples only preached only the specific aspects of the gospel Christ gave them that certain things maight be made known prior to His death whether or not they understood them, it was still the gospel. The is exactly what the PROPHETS did see 1 Peter 1:9-12.

Full guidance/revelation into ALL TRUTH came on Pentecost in Acts two John 14:26, 16:13. Complete revelation prior to the DBR does not require that the disciples preached a separate gospel.
But because YOUR theology separates Gods kingdom from the one true gospel, YOU require a theoretical second gospel, which equates to nothing more than Bi-gospelism.

That the word justification is or isnt literally written into Matt-John, does not change the fact of salvation, this does not change the gospel or that plan, and it does NOT mean the disciples preached something different than Paul.

### If what Jesus taught the disciples was according to the scriptures see Luke 24:44

WHILE he was with them then it is NECESSARY that IT WAS THE SAME GOSPEL that Paul

taught as he remarked in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 as well as Romans 16:25-26 ! IT MUST BE !###

You really missed this point in my last post! Jesus was reminding the disciples of things He spoke WHILE He was with them!!! This was NOT after the DBR as you claimed a BIG boo-boo on your part!

As yet, you have addressed none of these points directly you keeping running around them!
What qualities in Matt-John, in the beginning of the gospel (Mark 1:1), NECCESSITATE that the early disciples were preaching something different than Paul ???
Answer: Nothing!

You have offered only timing and terminology circumstance that proves nothing!

You said -it was the gospel of the kingdom. These are not synonymous. "Gospel" simply means "good news."
But they ARE synonymus. Precisely, it was glad tidings about the kingdom to which all nations would flow Isa. 2:2 not just the Jews! This was but just one of many aspects pertaining to the glad tidings.

You said - Show me specfic scripture, chapter and verse, from scripture, in Mt/-John, prior to the death, burial, and resurrection:
1.where the Lord Jesus Christ preached: I am going to die for your sins, be buried, and raised again so that you may be justified. Believe on my death, burial, and resurrection, and you will be saved.

This worth repeating to perhaps OPEN your eyes

Paul 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 1:1-2,16:25-26 according to the scriptures

Jesus Luke 24:44 These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.

Peter 1 Peter 1:9-12 The salvation by faith and the grace of God - that the prophets spoke of in reference to the sufferings of Christ who (the prophets) preached the gospel unto you!

The conclusion here is inescapable:

The scriptures spoke of only ONE gospel. The gospel the scriptures spoke of is the SAME one gospel that Jesus Peter Paul say the scriptures spoke of. You cant find any other !

Johnny, at this point the only out you may have is to claim that the OT scriptures prophesied bi-gospelism Are you ready to do that ??????

If so, more INductive reasoning will be required of you

eph3Nine · Oct 25, 2006

eph3Nine said:
In Galatians 1:6 there is 'another gospel,' a HETEROS gospel which is a gospel of a different kind.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is what the Judaizers preached to the Galatian believers, not a 'false gospel' that Acts 2 people use to identify 'another gospel.' The Gospel of the Kingdom is a gospel of a different kind.

In Galatians 1:7 you have 'the gospel of Christ,' which is another name for the Gospel of the grace of God; and in Gal. 3:8 the 'gospel preached unto Abraham' is what Jehovah God told him in Genesis 12:3; 15:5-6. Besides these three gospels in Galatians, there is 'the Everlasting Gospel' of Rev. 14:6.

So there are at least four Gospels which are clearly mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't take a whole lot of study to see that they are different from one another. But it does take a lot of human ingenuity to make them all the same.

The theory of 'one gospel' needs to be seen as a major problem because so much hinges on it. Are we saved today by the gospel revealed to Paul, or are we saved by the Gospel preached by Peter? We can't be saved by both of them together.

The Gospel of the Kingdom will make you religious today, but the Gospel of the grace of God alone will prepare you for heaven in God's spiritual realm of the Fourth Dimension.

One gospel? HA...there are at least FOUR mentioned here alone.

yeshuasavedme · Oct 25, 2006

foundinHim said:
I am not identified with any man either...but I am identified with Christ Jesus, my Risen Lord!!!

1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, "I am of Paul"; ...are ye not carnal?

eph3Nine · Oct 25, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, "I am of Paul"; ...are ye not carnal?

We follow Paul as he followed Christ...he knew NOT Christ on earth, but ONLY Him RISEN in glory.

Since Paul has been appointed OUR apostle, if we are indeed members of His Body and not psuedo intellectuals with an agenda associated with a curse, then we SHOULD be following Paul. We are IN CHRIST, and he is our spiritual father as scripture tells us he is.

IN Christ, and following the apostle ASSIGNED BY GOD to be OUR apostle.

Im afraid you will be the one giving an answer for yourself as to why you followed the wrong gospel. TSK TSK TSK

s0journ3r · Oct 25, 2006

yeshuasavedme said:
1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, "I am of Paul"; ...are ye not carnal?

Excellent Scripture, yeshuasavedme! It fits M.A.D. Advocates like a glove.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

yeshuasavedme · Oct 25, 2006

Paul is not my spiritual father. Shame on eph3nine for distortion of Scripture and mis stating the target audience!!!!!!!

The heighth of spiritual hypocrisy is in saying one must discern target audiences and then make claim of being the target audience of some passages which were never targeted to you.
My father in the faith is Abraham, who received the promise of the Spirit of regeneration in his name change.
My Spiritual Father, my Firstborn of the Spirit of adoption which I received, is Jesus Christ, who is the Father of the New Creation, whose Spirit of adoption is in me from the time I was born again.
He is the Everlasting Father of the New creation of human sons of God, and the Firstborn of that second creation, as the Living Spirit come in human flesh, by whose New Man Spirit in me I cry "Abba, Father!

yeshuasavedme · Oct 25, 2006

No man knows Christ after the "flesh", that is, in the "Adamic nature"; it is not possible; but after the "Spirit"; that is, after the adoption into the Spiritual Man.

Misunderstanding the New Birth causes all kinds of tortuous twistings of the Word to fit the MAD doctrines.

And Paul is not my spiritual father!

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

John 17:
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who *will believe in Me through their word;
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one,
[the perfect "One New Man"] and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

John 14
The Answered Prayer
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If you *ask anything in My name, I will do it.
Jesus Promises Another Helper

15 "If you love Me, *keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you "Fatherless" [orphans]; I will come to you.

Indwelling of the Father and the Son
19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
"22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

biblebeliever123 · Oct 25, 2006

1 Corinthians 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

yeshuasavedme · Oct 25, 2006

biblebeliever123 said:
1 Corinthians 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

I am not a Corinthian and I am not a Phillipian and Paul did not die for me and Paul is not the Church's Foundation, which was laid before Paul became another living stone added; upon which I am added as a living stone by the Spirit of adoption.

Paul did not "beget me" in the Gospel!
The Holy Spirit joined me to the LORD's Living Spirit of adoption and made me a seed of Abraham.
And I was "birthed" by the travail of my Southern Baptist sister, who labored in prayer for my soul in intercession until Christ was formed in me.
Paul I do not "know"; Paul is not living on earth and Paul is not living in me.
Jesus I know; He is living in me by His One Spirit and I am in Him by the same One Spirit and am seated with Him in heavenly places by His One Spirit of adoption.

Apollos1 · Oct 25, 2006

E39 -

In reply to post #46 - you repeated yourself once again. I have already seen that - you offered nothing new.

So try to answer just ONE point I made. Answer the following - I mean actually deal with the substance of it.

If what Jesus taught the disciples was “according to the scriptures” – see Luke 24:44 – (and it was!) WHILE he was yet with them – - -

then it is NECESSARY that IT WAS THE SAME GOSPEL that Paul taught - - -

just as Paul remarked in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 ...
as well as Romans 16:25-26, 1:1-2 !

IT MUST BE !###

Can you answer E39 - or will you just cut&paste some more abstract mumblings ??? Hmmmmm????????

eph3Nine · Oct 25, 2006

Im afraid it would all seem as abstract mumblings to you as the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

yeshuasavedme · Oct 25, 2006

The natural man is Adam, and the spiritual Man is Christ.
One is born into Adam the dead, and born again into Christ, the living.
The Adam cannot understand the things of the "Living Spirit" "Man".
If you refuse to be born again, no matter how religious you are, you are dead and cannot understand the things of the "Spirit" -much less reply with understanding to the poster who asked you for a reply.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

2Pe 1:1¶Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

eph3Nine · Oct 25, 2006

"The natural man" is anyone who has yet to place their trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as sufficient payment for THEIR OWN PERSONAL sin debt and justification.

The natural man is STILL IN ADAM! Only two types of folks in this world. Those who are still in ADAM, and those who, by virtue of having trusted the finished work of the CROSS, are in Christ. NO ONE goes from one to the other WITHOUT trusting in and placing their faith in what Christ DID ON THEIR BEHALF ON THAT CROSS.

If you dont have the righteousness which is OF God and FROM God...you have NO righteousness AT ALL! NO man will see God without the righteousness of Christ as evidenced by His finished work on the CROSS!

Thems the facts...and I hope they make you furious enough to trust them for yourself , instead of all this religious mumbo jumbo that you have deceived yourself into accepting.

yeshuasavedme · Oct 25, 2006

In Adam all die, Paul said to the Corinthians, because he read it in Genesis and was born in Adam, dead and dying: and in Adam you are born and remain unless you are born again, from above, in Christ, who is the Living Spirit, come as Kinsman [only brother] to Adam and therefore legal Redeemer as the second Man and "Last Adam".
Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom of God -which is one and the same kingdom of heaven, kingdom of God's dear Son into which all born again in Spirit Believers are added:
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=28095206&postcount=1

and as I replied to you on that forum;

Israel is the name of the New Man, Jesus Christ come in flesh, as the Foundation Stone of the Human Temple.

You are willingly biblically illiterate. You are without excuse for your ignorance.

Zion is the "Mother", which is the spiritual "City" which was to be made of human stones for the Father's glory to indwell.

Let's look:
Mary was a chosen earthly vessel to "mother" the New Nature of second created "Man", but the Mother of us all who are born again is Zion, above, the "Spiritual City" which is to be "filled up"and come down to earth, from God out of heaven, in the regeneration.

Jesus Christ, "Israel";
Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished Arrow; in his quiver hath he hid me; And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

"And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified." -Hear ye!
"And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Isa 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 49:7¶Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.Isa 49:8¶Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;Isa 49:9
That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that [are] in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures [shall be] in all high places.

eph3Nine · Oct 25, 2006

eph3Nine said:
"The natural man" is anyone who has yet to place their trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as sufficient payment for THEIR OWN PERSONAL sin debt and justification.

The natural man is STILL IN ADAM! Only two types of folks in this world. Those who are still in ADAM, and those who, by virtue of having trusted the finished work of the CROSS, are in Christ. NO ONE goes from one to the other WITHOUT trusting in and placing their faith in what Christ DID ON THEIR BEHALF ON THAT CROSS.

If you dont have the righteousness which is OF God and FROM God...you have NO righteousness AT ALL! NO man will see God without the righteousness of Christ as evidenced by His finished work on the CROSS!

Thems the facts...and I hope they make you furious enough to trust them for yourself , instead of all this religious mumbo jumbo that you have deceived yourself into accepting.

You arent Israel...you can think you are, wish you were, pretend you are and it still wont make it SO!

God says YOU AINT...and let God be true and every man a liar.

JMWHALEN · Oct 25, 2006

Apollos1 said:
E39 -

In reply to post #46 - you repeated yourself once again. I have already seen that - you offered nothing new.

So try to answer just ONE point I made. Answer the following - I mean actually deal with the substance of it.

If what Jesus taught the disciples was according to the scriptures see Luke 24:44 (and it was!) WHILE he was yet with them - -

then it is NECESSARY that IT WAS THE SAME GOSPEL that Paul taught - - -

just as Paul remarked in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 ...
as well as Romans 16:25-26, 1:1-2 !

IT MUST BE !###

Can you answer E39 - or will you just cut&paste some more abstract mumblings ??? Hmmmmm????????

____________
Preaching "the" gospel of the kingdom/Peter(and Judas).... preached "the gospel of the kingdom":

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, andJudas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matthew 10:1-8

"....And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matthew 10:7,8

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." Matthew 4:23

"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." Matthew 9:35

"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead;
And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again.
And Herod said, John have I beheaded: but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.
And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsaida.
And the people, when they knew it, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing.
And when the day began to wear away, then came the twelve, and said unto him, Send the multitude away, that they may go into the towns and country round about, and lodge, and get victuals: for we are here in a desert place.
But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they said, We have no more but five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy meat for all this people.
For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties in a company.
And they did so, and made them all sit down.
Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskets.
And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. " Luke 9:1-22

So, they are "preaching the gospel." Later, they are charged not to reveal that He is "The Christ of God", and then they are told about the prophecy, the fact, of the impending death, burial, and resurrection, not its meaning, for:

"For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." Mark 9:31,32

"Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34

"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." John 20:9

Same "the" gospel? Right. Good one.

According to the scriptures, they were not preaching 1 Cor. 15:1-4 at least prior to the dbr.

Provide scripture, from Mt.-John, prior to the dbr, where the Lord Jesus Christ, the 12, or anybody, preached "I/He is going to die for your sins....be buried.....be raised again for your/our justification....believe on this and you will be saved...." Chapter and verse.

You cannot, and will not. Thus, "the gospel of the kingdom", which the 12 did preach in Mt.-John, at least prior to the dbr, is not equivalent to "the" gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4, since 1 Cor. 15:1-4 was not preached during this same time period, at least prior to the dbr. And thus, your "supporting walls"(premises) of your "argument" crumbles.

And this is, and has been, sojourner's response:

"...We cannot tell..."(Mt. 21:27, Mark 11:33)

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

One Gospel? Lets See, shall we?

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