Salvation

Chris†opher Paul · Jul 31, 2002

Is it true that Catholic Dogma states that in order to be saved you have to be a member of the Catholic Church?

http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-VI-Church

I know about Baptism by blood, and that some might be saved that don't knowingly commit heresy:

"These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, "The Necessity of Baptism").

The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament Church. However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."

http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

What's the deal?  What is divinely revealed doctrine?  :scratch:

I guess I don't understand Dogma versus Doctrine, etc...help.

jukesk9 · Jul 31, 2002

No. At one time the statement was made that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, the Church teaches that Protestants are part of the Catholic Church in essence but that they are separated and not fully in communion. When I get more time (gotta go) I will post from the CCC what the Church says about this......

nyj · Jul 31, 2002

Originally posted by jukesk9
At one time the statement was made that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Yes, a comment made by St. Augustine, pre-schism of 1054/pre-reformation. At the time of Augustine's comments, the only Christian Church WAS the Catholic Church.

Polycarp · Jul 31, 2002

jukesk9 · Aug 1, 2002

Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

 

832. "'The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament.... In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the LORD'S SUPPER is celebrated.... In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted.'[LG 26.]"

 

jukesk9 · Aug 1, 2002

I should add that diaspora in this sense does not mean Jews outside of Israel; rather I interpret it as meaning Christians outside of the Catholic Church.

Caedmon · Aug 1, 2002

Originally posted by jukesk9
Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

 

832. "'The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament.... In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the LORD'S SUPPER is celebrated.... In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted.'[LG 26.]"

 

I haven't had the Lord's Supper in a few years. Am I saved according to the RCC?

nyj · Aug 1, 2002

Originally posted by humblejoe
I haven't had the Lord's Supper in a few years. Am I saved according to the RCC?

What do you care what the Catholic Church has to say? If you believe in sola scriptura look to the Bible.

John 6:53-56
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;_he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day._For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed._He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Chris†opher Paul · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by nyj

What do you care what the Catholic Church has to say? If you believe in sola scriptura look to the Bible.

John 6:53-56
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;_he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day._For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed._He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Amen.

cheezit · Aug 2, 2002

Just pointing out that this is also taken from the Catechism of the Catholic church.

816 The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.'

Wolseley · Aug 2, 2002

From Unitatis Redintegratio, the Decree on Ecumenism; Documents of Vatican Council II, issued November 21, 1964:

....in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church---for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church---whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church--do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes
serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are
members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christians, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

(Emphasis mine.)

Translated from Vaticanese, what this means is that all Christian churches are united, albiet imperfectly, with the Catholic Church, in faith of salvation through Christ. In addition, all non-Catholic Christians have the means of salvation available to them through their own faith communities and churches.

You do not have to be Catholic to be saved.

Caedmon · Aug 3, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
What do you care what the Catholic Church has to say? If you believe in sola scriptura look to the Bible.

John 6:53-56
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;_he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day._For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed._He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

I was curious, no need for sardonic matter-of-fact-ness. Sometimes it just seems as though Catholic belief says I am condemned for not participating in Catholic eucharist.

Thanks for clearing things up Wols.

nyj · Aug 4, 2002

Originally posted by Wolseley
You do not have to be Catholic to be saved.

 

But it most certainly helps.

Chris†opher Paul · Aug 5, 2002

Originally posted by nyj

 

But it most certainly helps.

True, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

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