Are Gays Mentally Ill?

Are Gays and Lesbians Mentally Ill?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Sometimes

  • Iunno


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SimplyMe

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The study says what it says. It was performed by accredited scientists that do not have an agenda. While you are making assessment, perhaps you should consider that a lot of illegal substances are legal in the Netherlands.

Who is perpetrating violence. Do you have names? I think it is hatred and bigotry to throw out these charges indescriminately on your part. It sounds paranoid.

I'll deal with your "study" in a moment. However, I don't believe the Netherlands has any drugs that are legal there that are illegal here. To a certain degree, the Netherlands policy on marijuana is not that different from California; "coffee houses" may sell small amounts of marijuana to individuals for consumption on the premises but the distribution outside the coffee shop is still illegal (including the supplier that gets the marijuana for the coffee house), just as in California having small amounts of marijuana is similar to a traffic ticket but larger amounts are still aggressively prosecuted.

Of course, I'm not sure what drug laws have to do with this thread anyway.
 
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mnbvcxz87

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For once I think MercyBurst may be correct. I've read that homosexual teenagers have one of the highest rates of suicide. That being said it should be pretty obvious that this is due to the social stigma and the hate that they have to endure from society that causes this, not their sexual orientation.


That may be the case but I'd agree it would be the social stigma more than genuine mental illness.

No doubt if a roman citizen who found the idea of people fighting brutally in stadiums for entertainment, surrounded by a society that wallowed in the violence and found his views absurd, he could be driven to something, but that's society not him.
 
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fillerbunny

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Neil Whitehead the NARTH anthropologist?

Frankly, it's hard to take anyone seriously who honestly believes that, given the millions of homosexual individuals out there leading vastly different lives, a 'homosexual lifestyle' exists.

A strong case can be made that the male homosexual
lifestyle itself, in its most extreme form, is
mentally disturbed.

This is a joke. There are plenty of promiscuous heterosexuals out there, too.. but would anybody take this statement seriously?

A strong case can be made that the male heterosexual
lifestyle itself, in its most extreme form, is
mentally disturbed.


Methinks not.
 
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SimplyMe

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Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems
By N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.

Summary: Recent studies show homosexuals have a
substantially greater risk of suffering from a
psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see
higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia,
antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse.
This paper highlights some new and significant
considerations that reflect on the question of those
mental illnesses and on their possible sources.

The American Psychiatric Association removed
homosexuality from its diagnostic list of mental
disorders in 1973, despite substantial protest (see
Socarides, 1995). The A.P.A. was strongly motivated by
the desire to reduce the effects of social oppression.
However, one effect of the A.P.A.'s action was to add
psychiatric authority to gay activists' insistence
that homosexuals as a group are as healthy as
heterosexuals. This has discouraged publication of
research that suggests there may, in fact, be
psychiatric problems associated with homosexuality.

In a review of the literature, Gonsiorek (1982) argued
there was no data showing mental differences between
gays and straights--or if there was any, it could be
attributed to social stigma. Similarly, Ross (1988) in
a cross-cultural study, found most gays were in the
normal psychological range. However some papers did
give hints of psychiatric differences between
homosexuals and heterosexuals. One study (Riess, 1980)
used the MMPI, that venerable and well-validated
psychological scale, and found that homosexuals showed
definite "personal and emotional oversensitivity."

In 1991 the absolute equality of homosexuality and
heterosexuality was strongly defended in a paper
called "The Empirical Basis for the Demise of the
Mental Illness Model" (Gonsiorek, 1991). But not until
1992 was homosexuality dropped from the psychiatric
manual used by other nations--the International
Classification of Diseases (King and Bartlett,
1999)--so it appears the rest of the world doubted the
APA 1973 decision for nearly two decades.

Is homosexuality as healthy as heterosexuality? To
answer that question, what is needed are
representative samples of homosexual people which
study their mental health, unlike the volunteer
samples which have, in the past, selected out any
disturbed or gender-atypical subjects (such as in the
well-known study by Evelyn Hooker). And fortunately,
such representative surveys have lately become
available.


New Studies Suggest Higher Level of Pathology
One important and carefully conducted study found
suicide attempts among homosexuals were six times
greater than the average (Remafedi et al. 1998).
Then, more recently, in the Archives of General
Psychiatry-- an established and well-respected
journal--three papers appeared with extensive
accompanying commentary (Fergusson et al. 1999,
Herrell et al. 1999, Sandfort et al. 2001, and e.g.
Bailey 1999). J. Michael Bailey included a commentary
on the above research; Bailey, it should be noted,
conducted many of the muchpublicized "gay twin
studies" which were used by gay advocates as support
for the "born that way" theory. Neil Whitehead, Ph.D.

Bailey said, "These studies contain arguably the best
published data on the association between
homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge
on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are
at substantially higher risk for some forms of
emotional problems, including suicidality, major
depression, and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder,
and nicotine dependence...The strength of the new
studies is their degree of control."

The first study was on male twins who had served in
Vietnam (Herrell et al. 1999). It concluded that on
average, male homosexuals were 5.1 times more likely
to exhibit suicide- related behavior or thoughts than
their heterosexual counterparts. Some of this factor
of 5.1 was associated with depression and substance
abuse, which might or might not be related to the
homosexuality. (When these two problems were factored
out, the factor of 5 decreased to 2.5; still somewhat
significant.) The authors believed there was an
independent factor related to suicidality which was
probably closely associated with some features of
homosexuality itself.

The second study (Fergusson et al. 1999) followed a
large New Zealand group from birth to their early
twenties. The "birth cohort" method of subject
selection is especially reliable and free from most of
the biases which bedevil surveys. This study showed a
significantly higher occurrence of depression, anxiety
disorder, conduct disorder, substance abuse and
thoughts about suicide, amongst those who were
homosexually active.

The third paper was a Netherlands study (Sandfort et
al. 2001) which again showed a higher level of
mental-health problems among homosexuals, but
remarkably, subjects with HIV infection was not any
more likely than those without HIV infection to suffer
from mental health problems. People who are
HIV-positive should at least be expected to be anxious
or depressed!

The paper thus concluded that HIV infection is not a
cause of mental health problems--but that
stigmatization from society was likely the cause--even
in the Netherlands, where alternative lifestyles are
more widely accepted than in most other countries.
That interpretation of the data is quite unconvincing.

The commentaries on those studies brought up three
interesting issues.

1. First, there is now clear evidence that mental
health problems are indeed associated with
homosexuality. This supports those who opposed the APA
actions in 1973. However, the present papers do not
answer the question; is homosexuality itself
pathological?

2. The papers do show that since only a minority of a
nonclinical sample of homosexuals has any diagnosable
mental problems (at least by present diagnostic
criteria), then most homosexuals are not mentally ill.

In New Zealand, for example, lesbians are about twice
as likely to have sought help for mental problems as
heterosexual women, but only about 35% of them over
their lifespan did so, and never more than 50% (Anon
1995, Saphira and Glover, 2000, Welch et al. 2000)
This corresponds with similar findings from the U.S.


Relationship Breakups Motivate Most
Suicide Attempts
Next, we ask--do the papers show that it is gay
lifestyle factors, or society's stigmatization, that
are the motivators that lead a person to attempt
suicide? Neither conclusion is inevitable. Still,
Saghir and Robins (1978) examined reasons for suicide
attempts among homosexuals and found that if the
reasons for the attempt were connected with
homosexuality, about 2/3 were due to breakups of
relationships --not outside pressures from society.
Similarly, Bell and Weinberg (1981) also found the
major reason for suicide attempts was the breakup of
relationships. In second place, they said, was the
inability to accept oneself. Since homosexuals have
greater numbers of partners and breakups, compared
with heterosexuals, and since longterm gay male
relationships are rarely monagamous, it is hardly
surprising if suicide attempts are proportionally
greater. The median number of partners for homosexuals
is four times higher than for heterosexuals (Whitehead
and Whitehead 1999, calculated from Laumann et al
1994).

A good general rule of thumb is that suicide attempts
are about three times higher for homosexuals. Could
there be a connection between those two percentages?

Another factor in suicide attempts would be the
compulsive or addictive elements in homosexuality
(Pincu, 1989 ) which could lead to feelings of
depression when the lifestyle is out of control
(Seligman 1975). There are some, (estimates vary, but
perhaps as many as 50% of young men today), who do not
take consistent precautions against HIV (Valleroy et
al., 2001) and who have considerable problems with
sexual addiction and substance abuse addiction, and
this of course would feed into suicide attempts.


The Effect of Social Stigma
Third, does pressure from society lead to mental
health problems? Less, I believe, than one might
imagine. The authors of the study done in The
Netherlands were surprised to find so much mental
illness in homosexual people in a country where
tolerance of homosexuality is greater than in almost
all other countries.
Another good comparison country is New Zealand, which
is much more tolerant of homosexuality than is the
United States. Legislation giving the movement special
legal rights is powerful, consistently enforced
throughout the country, and virtually never
challenged. Despite this broad level of social
tolerance, suicide attempts were common in a New
Zealand study and occurred at about the same rate as
in the U.S.

In his cross-cultural comparison of mental health in
the Netherlands, Denmark and the U.S., Ross (1988)
could find no significant differences between
countries - i.e. the greater social hostility in the
United States did not result in a higher level of
psychiatric problems.

There are three other issues not covered in the
Archives journal articles which are worthy of
consideration. The first two involve DSM category
diagnoses.


Promiscuity and Antisocial Personality
The promiscuous person--either heterosexual or
homosexual --may in fact be more likely to be
antisocial. It is worth noting here the comment of
Rotello (1997), who is himself openly gay: "...the
outlaw aspect of gay sexual culture, its
transgressiveness, is seen by many men as one of its
greatest attributes."
Ellis et al. (1995) examined patients at an clinic
which focused on genital and urological problems such
as STD's; he found 38% of the homosexual men seeking
such services had antisocial personality disorder, as
well as 28% of heterosexual men. Both levels were
enormously higher than the 2% rate of antisocial
personality disorder for the general population (which
in turn, compares to the 50% rate for prison inmates)
(Matthews 1997).

Perhaps the finding of a higher level of conduct
disorder in the New Zealand study foreshadowed this
finding of antisocial personality . Therapists, of
course, are not very likely to see a large number of
individuals who are antisocial because they are
probably less likely to seek help.

Secondly, it was previously noted that 43% of a
bulimic sample of men were homosexual or bisexual
(Carlat et al. 1997), a rate about 15 times higher
than the rate in the population in general--meaning
homosexual men are probably disproportionately liable
to this mental condition. This may be due to the very
strong preoccupation with appearance and physique
frequently found among male homosexuals.


Ideology of Sexual Liberation
A strong case can be made that the male homosexual
lifestyle itself, in its most extreme form, is
mentally disturbed. Remember that Rotello, a gay
advocate, notes that "the outlaw aspect of gay sexual
culture, its transgressiveness, is seen by many men as
one of its greatest attributes." Same-sex eroticism
becomes for many, therefore, the central value of
existence, and nothing else--not even life and health
itself--is allowed to interfere with pursuit of this
lifestyle. Homosexual promiscuity fuels the AIDS
crisis in the West, but even that tragedy it is not
allowed to interfere with sexual freedom.
And, according to Rotello, the idea of taking
responsibility to avoid infecting others with the HIV
virus is completely foreign to many groups trying to
counter AIDS. The idea of protecting oneself is
promoted, but protecting others is not mentioned in
most official condom promotions (France in the '80s
was an interesting exception). Bluntly, then, core gay
behavior is both potentially fatal to others, and
often suicidal.

Surely it should be considered "mentally disturbed" to
risk losing one's life for sexual liberation. This is
surely among the most extreme risks practiced by any
significant fraction of society. I have not found a
higher risk of death accepted by any similar-sized
population.

In conclusion, then, if we ask the question "Is mental
illness inherent in the homosexual condition?" the
answer would have to be "Further
research--uncompromised by politics --should be
carried out to honestly evaluate this issue."

I'm sorry, this is not a study but rather an opinion piece written (or at least the only place I can find it) for NARTH, you can find it on their website here. I trust this is why you posted the entire paper but didn't note the source.

Further, as fillerbunny has pointed out, this is all dealing with "mental illnesses" such as "We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse"; illnesses that are all greatly influenced by the various pressures of a person's life. In fact, none of the studies even tries to claim that gays have higher incidences of mental illnesses that are not triggered by stress.

If you read carefully through the paper, you find a number of places where he draws conclusions from the research that are not there. For example, the study that examined soldiers who served in Vietnam and finding that gays were 5.1x more likely to commit suicide.

While he takes into account depression and substance abuse (lowering it to 2.5), he then claims that that 2.5 is directly attributable to their being homosexual -- completely ignoring that there might be other causes for suicide. In fact, in this scenario you'd want to examine for societal pressures causing the suicide. These are people who served in the military (which at the time was virulently opposed to homosexuality), in a time when homosexuality was still considered a mental disease (most served in Vietnam prior to 1972), in an environment a person not homosexual found highly stressful (with high incidences of post-traumatic stress disorder). Seems like societal stress might be a contributing influence on gay suicide attempts, especially when you consider the high number of all soldiers (not just homosexual) returning with stress related syndromes for years after returning from Vietnam. It seems self-evident that gays, with their increased stress, would be at a far greater risk for post-traumatic stress. This is but one example of his poor conclusions.

In a couple of places his bias comes to the surface as well, such as," A strong case can be made that the male homosexual lifestyle itself..."; the mere fact he implies there is a single "homosexual lifestyle" tends to complete discredit his whole argument.

Last, if you research N. E. Whitehead, you find that he is actually a government biochemist in New Zealand and not a psychologist/psychiatrist, despite the large number of psychological conclusions he tries to make. The fact is, this is not a study, nor is it true research. Instead, this is an editorial with the studies being cited to create the illusion of science.

Last, if the idea of societal stress is so impossible to believe with gays; consider that levels of stress, clinical depression, and drug abuse have skyrocketed in New York since 9/11 (NIDA-funded research, Dr. David Vlahov, New York Academy of Medicine). The fact is that abuse and fear cause higher levels of depression, suicide attempts, substance abuse, etc. and studies consistently show gays face higher levels of abuse and fear than non-gays.
 
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MercyBurst

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I'm sorry, this is not a study but rather an opinion piece written (or at least the only place I can find it) for NARTH, you can find it on their website here. I trust this is why you posted the entire paper but didn't note the source.

Further, as fillerbunny has pointed out, this is all dealing with "mental illnesses" such as "We see higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse"; illnesses that are all greatly influenced by the various pressures of a person's life. In fact, none of the studies even tries to claim that gays have higher incidences of mental illnesses that are not triggered by stress.

If you read carefully through the paper, you find a number of places where he draws conclusions from the research that are not there. For example, the study that examined soldiers who served in Vietnam and finding that gays were 5.1x more likely to commit suicide.

While he takes into account depression and substance abuse (lowering it to 2.5), he then claims that that 2.5 is directly attributable to their being homosexual -- completely ignoring that there might be other causes for suicide. In fact, in this scenario you'd want to examine for societal pressures causing the suicide. These are people who served in the military (which at the time was virulently opposed to homosexuality), in a time when homosexuality was still considered a mental disease (most served in Vietnam prior to 1972), in an environment a person not homosexual found highly stressful (with high incidences of post-traumatic stress disorder). Seems like societal stress might be a contributing influence on gay suicide attempts, especially when you consider the high number of all soldiers (not just homosexual) returning with stress related syndromes for years after returning from Vietnam. It seems self-evident that gays, with their increased stress, would be at a far greater risk for post-traumatic stress. This is but one example of his poor conclusions.

In a couple of places his bias comes to the surface as well, such as," A strong case can be made that the male homosexual lifestyle itself..."; the mere fact he implies there is a single "homosexual lifestyle" tends to complete discredit his whole argument.

Last, if you research N. E. Whitehead, you find that he is actually a government biochemist in New Zealand and not a psychologist/psychiatrist, despite the large number of psychological conclusions he tries to make. The fact is, this is not a study, nor is it true research. Instead, this is an editorial with the studies being cited to create the illusion of science.

Last, if the idea of societal stress is so impossible to believe with gays; consider that levels of stress, clinical depression, and drug abuse have skyrocketed in New York since 9/11 (NIDA-funded research, Dr. David Vlahov, New York Academy of Medicine). The fact is that abuse and fear cause higher levels of depression, suicide attempts, substance abuse, etc. and studies consistently show gays face higher levels of abuse and fear than non-gays.


I don't need to repeat what the paper already said about higher suicide rates from broken gay-relationships (2/3 of all gay suicides), bulemia 15 times higher among gay men, etc. which clearly have nothing to do with social stigma. The social stigma argument has been around since the early 80s and it is inadequate for explaining ALL the mental illness issues.

I thought the paper was very well researched myself. All of your arguments have been carefully considered. I see no new information being provided by you or others that wasn't already here when the srudies were conducted.

In a couple of places his bias comes to the surface as well, such as," A strong case can be made that the male homosexual lifestyle itself..."; the mere fact he implies there is a single "homosexual lifestyle" tends to complete discredit his whole argument.


I think his argument is very reasonable: If a person is willing to discard any value of life in the "extreme pursuit" of sexual pleasure (as he puts it) -- this does look like a mental illness, regardless of gender orientation. I have to be totally honest and agree with him.
 
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Pinp

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Homosexuality and Mental Health Problems
By N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.

Summary: Recent studies show homosexuals have a
substantially greater risk of suffering from a
psychiatric problems than do heterosexuals. We see
higher rates of suicide, depression, bulimia,
antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse.
This paper highlights some new and significant
considerations that reflect on the question of those
mental illnesses and on their possible sources.

The American Psychiatric Association removed
homosexuality from its diagnostic list of mental
disorders in 1973, despite substantial protest (see
Socarides, 1995). The A.P.A. was strongly motivated by
the desire to reduce the effects of social oppression.
However, one effect of the A.P.A.'s action was to add
psychiatric authority to gay activists' insistence
that homosexuals as a group are as healthy as
heterosexuals. This has discouraged publication of
research that suggests there may, in fact, be
psychiatric problems associated with homosexuality.

In a review of the literature, Gonsiorek (1982) argued
there was no data showing mental differences between
gays and straights--or if there was any, it could be
attributed to social stigma. Similarly, Ross (1988) in
a cross-cultural study, found most gays were in the
normal psychological range. However some papers did
give hints of psychiatric differences between
homosexuals and heterosexuals. One study (Riess, 1980)
used the MMPI, that venerable and well-validated
psychological scale, and found that homosexuals showed
definite "personal and emotional oversensitivity."

In 1991 the absolute equality of homosexuality and
heterosexuality was strongly defended in a paper
called "The Empirical Basis for the Demise of the
Mental Illness Model" (Gonsiorek, 1991). But not until
1992 was homosexuality dropped from the psychiatric
manual used by other nations--the International
Classification of Diseases (King and Bartlett,
1999)--so it appears the rest of the world doubted the
APA 1973 decision for nearly two decades.

Is homosexuality as healthy as heterosexuality? To
answer that question, what is needed are
representative samples of homosexual people which
study their mental health, unlike the volunteer
samples which have, in the past, selected out any
disturbed or gender-atypical subjects (such as in the
well-known study by Evelyn Hooker). And fortunately,
such representative surveys have lately become
available.


New Studies Suggest Higher Level of Pathology
One important and carefully conducted study found
suicide attempts among homosexuals were six times
greater than the average (Remafedi et al. 1998).
Then, more recently, in the Archives of General
Psychiatry-- an established and well-respected
journal--three papers appeared with extensive
accompanying commentary (Fergusson et al. 1999,
Herrell et al. 1999, Sandfort et al. 2001, and e.g.
Bailey 1999). J. Michael Bailey included a commentary
on the above research; Bailey, it should be noted,
conducted many of the muchpublicized "gay twin
studies" which were used by gay advocates as support
for the "born that way" theory. Neil Whitehead, Ph.D.

Bailey said, "These studies contain arguably the best
published data on the association between
homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge
on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are
at substantially higher risk for some forms of
emotional problems, including suicidality, major
depression, and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder,
and nicotine dependence...The strength of the new
studies is their degree of control."

The first study was on male twins who had served in
Vietnam (Herrell et al. 1999). It concluded that on
average, male homosexuals were 5.1 times more likely
to exhibit suicide- related behavior or thoughts than
their heterosexual counterparts. Some of this factor
of 5.1 was associated with depression and substance
abuse, which might or might not be related to the
homosexuality. (When these two problems were factored
out, the factor of 5 decreased to 2.5; still somewhat
significant.) The authors believed there was an
independent factor related to suicidality which was
probably closely associated with some features of
homosexuality itself.

The second study (Fergusson et al. 1999) followed a
large New Zealand group from birth to their early
twenties. The "birth cohort" method of subject
selection is especially reliable and free from most of
the biases which bedevil surveys. This study showed a
significantly higher occurrence of depression, anxiety
disorder, conduct disorder, substance abuse and
thoughts about suicide, amongst those who were
homosexually active.

The third paper was a Netherlands study (Sandfort et
al. 2001) which again showed a higher level of
mental-health problems among homosexuals, but
remarkably, subjects with HIV infection was not any
more likely than those without HIV infection to suffer
from mental health problems. People who are
HIV-positive should at least be expected to be anxious
or depressed!

The paper thus concluded that HIV infection is not a
cause of mental health problems--but that
stigmatization from society was likely the cause--even
in the Netherlands, where alternative lifestyles are
more widely accepted than in most other countries.
That interpretation of the data is quite unconvincing.

The commentaries on those studies brought up three
interesting issues.

1. First, there is now clear evidence that mental
health problems are indeed associated with
homosexuality. This supports those who opposed the APA
actions in 1973. However, the present papers do not
answer the question; is homosexuality itself
pathological?

2. The papers do show that since only a minority of a
nonclinical sample of homosexuals has any diagnosable
mental problems (at least by present diagnostic
criteria), then most homosexuals are not mentally ill.

In New Zealand, for example, lesbians are about twice
as likely to have sought help for mental problems as
heterosexual women, but only about 35% of them over
their lifespan did so, and never more than 50% (Anon
1995, Saphira and Glover, 2000, Welch et al. 2000)
This corresponds with similar findings from the U.S.


Relationship Breakups Motivate Most
Suicide Attempts
Next, we ask--do the papers show that it is gay
lifestyle factors, or society's stigmatization, that
are the motivators that lead a person to attempt
suicide? Neither conclusion is inevitable. Still,
Saghir and Robins (1978) examined reasons for suicide
attempts among homosexuals and found that if the
reasons for the attempt were connected with
homosexuality, about 2/3 were due to breakups of
relationships --not outside pressures from society.
Similarly, Bell and Weinberg (1981) also found the
major reason for suicide attempts was the breakup of
relationships. In second place, they said, was the
inability to accept oneself. Since homosexuals have
greater numbers of partners and breakups, compared
with heterosexuals, and since longterm gay male
relationships are rarely monagamous, it is hardly
surprising if suicide attempts are proportionally
greater. The median number of partners for homosexuals
is four times higher than for heterosexuals (Whitehead
and Whitehead 1999, calculated from Laumann et al
1994).

A good general rule of thumb is that suicide attempts
are about three times higher for homosexuals. Could
there be a connection between those two percentages?

Another factor in suicide attempts would be the
compulsive or addictive elements in homosexuality
(Pincu, 1989 ) which could lead to feelings of
depression when the lifestyle is out of control
(Seligman 1975). There are some, (estimates vary, but
perhaps as many as 50% of young men today), who do not
take consistent precautions against HIV (Valleroy et
al., 2001) and who have considerable problems with
sexual addiction and substance abuse addiction, and
this of course would feed into suicide attempts.


The Effect of Social Stigma
Third, does pressure from society lead to mental
health problems? Less, I believe, than one might
imagine. The authors of the study done in The
Netherlands were surprised to find so much mental
illness in homosexual people in a country where
tolerance of homosexuality is greater than in almost
all other countries.
Another good comparison country is New Zealand, which
is much more tolerant of homosexuality than is the
United States. Legislation giving the movement special
legal rights is powerful, consistently enforced
throughout the country, and virtually never
challenged. Despite this broad level of social
tolerance, suicide attempts were common in a New
Zealand study and occurred at about the same rate as
in the U.S.

In his cross-cultural comparison of mental health in
the Netherlands, Denmark and the U.S., Ross (1988)
could find no significant differences between
countries - i.e. the greater social hostility in the
United States did not result in a higher level of
psychiatric problems.

There are three other issues not covered in the
Archives journal articles which are worthy of
consideration. The first two involve DSM category
diagnoses.


Promiscuity and Antisocial Personality
The promiscuous person--either heterosexual or
homosexual --may in fact be more likely to be
antisocial. It is worth noting here the comment of
Rotello (1997), who is himself openly gay: "...the
outlaw aspect of gay sexual culture, its
transgressiveness, is seen by many men as one of its
greatest attributes."
Ellis et al. (1995) examined patients at an clinic
which focused on genital and urological problems such
as STD's; he found 38% of the homosexual men seeking
such services had antisocial personality disorder, as
well as 28% of heterosexual men. Both levels were
enormously higher than the 2% rate of antisocial
personality disorder for the general population (which
in turn, compares to the 50% rate for prison inmates)
(Matthews 1997).

Perhaps the finding of a higher level of conduct
disorder in the New Zealand study foreshadowed this
finding of antisocial personality . Therapists, of
course, are not very likely to see a large number of
individuals who are antisocial because they are
probably less likely to seek help.

Secondly, it was previously noted that 43% of a
bulimic sample of men were homosexual or bisexual
(Carlat et al. 1997), a rate about 15 times higher
than the rate in the population in general--meaning
homosexual men are probably disproportionately liable
to this mental condition. This may be due to the very
strong preoccupation with appearance and physique
frequently found among male homosexuals.


Ideology of Sexual Liberation
A strong case can be made that the male homosexual
lifestyle itself, in its most extreme form, is
mentally disturbed. Remember that Rotello, a gay
advocate, notes that "the outlaw aspect of gay sexual
culture, its transgressiveness, is seen by many men as
one of its greatest attributes." Same-sex eroticism
becomes for many, therefore, the central value of
existence, and nothing else--not even life and health
itself--is allowed to interfere with pursuit of this
lifestyle. Homosexual promiscuity fuels the AIDS
crisis in the West, but even that tragedy it is not
allowed to interfere with sexual freedom.
And, according to Rotello, the idea of taking
responsibility to avoid infecting others with the HIV
virus is completely foreign to many groups trying to
counter AIDS. The idea of protecting oneself is
promoted, but protecting others is not mentioned in
most official condom promotions (France in the '80s
was an interesting exception). Bluntly, then, core gay
behavior is both potentially fatal to others, and
often suicidal.

Surely it should be considered "mentally disturbed" to
risk losing one's life for sexual liberation. This is
surely among the most extreme risks practiced by any
significant fraction of society. I have not found a
higher risk of death accepted by any similar-sized
population.

In conclusion, then, if we ask the question "Is mental
illness inherent in the homosexual condition?" the
answer would have to be "Further
research--uncompromised by politics --should be
carried out to honestly evaluate this issue."



from the deliberately obscured source material said:
1. First, there is now clear evidence that mental
health problems are indeed associated with
homosexuality. This supports those who opposed the APA
actions in 1973. However, the present papers do not
answer the question; is homosexuality itself
pathological?

2. The papers do show that since only a minority of a
nonclinical sample of homosexuals has any diagnosable
mental problems (at least by present diagnostic
criteria), then most homosexuals are not mentally ill.
doh.jpg

Even this NARTH "Researcher" couldn't keep a "straight" face. Conclusion: another unethical violation of standards and practices (lies in Jesus face)...no wonder NARTH isn't allowed in the APA....​
 
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Pinp

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I'm feeling generous today so I'll throw the Gay-Haters a bone (to help them better frame their arguments).

Any "Researcher" who refers to:

1. The Homosexual Lifestyle.
2. The Homosexual Agenda.
3. Sodomites.
4. The bible as source material.
5. Other "Researchers" who do as much
6. Or works for ANY Christian political organization.

Then, they are idealogues not scientists and are not valid as source material. They are "Lying for Jesus" and have their place in Hell.

If however a Researcher:

1. Refers to Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, or Transgendered People.
2. Cites actual clinical studies of GLBT's conducted using sound statistical sampling methods.
3. Does not "jump to conclusions" that are unsupported by the data (i.e. when presented with evidence that suggests GLBT's have higher rates of depression does not IMMEDIATLY turn around and say, "CLEARLY there is something inheirently sinful about the Homosexual lifestyle choice")
4. Has a PhD in their actual field of work (not a PhD in Pediatric Medicine preaching about the Psychological issues of ADULT GLBT's...Dr. Dobson).
5. Does not cite research out of context that appears to support a conclusion when a few paragraphs later that same research admits that said conclusion CANNOT be drawn from said reserch.

Then, you've probably got a professional on your hands and you should feel free to quote them.

Here's a quick way to tell what's usually accurate:

Condemns Homosexuals = Biased unusable
Demonstrates that GLBT's are not "Evil" just different = Unbiased, usuable.
 
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C

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If there is a real link between sexuality and mental health, it will be genetic.

Can you cite a scientific paper which can show a demonstrable correlation between the two, on a genetic level?

He raises a good point. If gays are mentally ill, and it isn't just from societal pressures, then there would have to be a genetic correlation between homosexuality and the mental illness, thus it would stand to reason that homosexuality is also genetic, seeing as how the body doesn't modify it's DNA and create harmful genes in response to a sexual behaivior, or a choice of who to have sex with.

Now, are you sure that gays have other illnesses other than the ones brought one by societal stigma?
 
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Pinp

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I've read that homosexual teenagers have one of the highest rates of suicide. That being said it should be pretty obvious that this is due to the social stigma and the hate that they have to endure from society that causes this, not their sexual orientation.

Its pretty obvious yes unless you happen to be:

hs.jpg
 
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MercyBurst

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Neil Whitehead the NARTH anthropologist?

Frankly, it's hard to take anyone seriously who honestly believes that, given the millions of homosexual individuals out there leading vastly different lives, a 'homosexual lifestyle' exists.



This is a joke. There are plenty of promiscuous heterosexuals out there, too.. but would anybody take this statement seriously?

A strong case can be made that the male heterosexual
lifestyle itself, in its most extreme form, is
mentally disturbed.

Methinks not.

I disagree. If someone is willing to sacrifice their life for an addictive compulsion -- methinks they have a BIG problem.

We are entitled to different opinions.
 
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fillerbunny

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That wasn't really my point, though. My point was that the idea of a 'male heterosexual lifestyle' (in its 'most extreme form' or otherwise) is ludicrous and would never be taken seriously.. yet people seem to have no problem with the (equally ridiculous) concept of a 'male homosexual lifestyle'.
 
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MercyBurst

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Its pretty obvious yes unless you happen to be:


hs.jpg

and your scientific studies that support the hypothesis that's been around since the early 80s (certainly enough time to look at it objectively).

I find the objections to NARTH and other ex-gay resources increasingly paranoid.

There are plenty of resources out there that are genuinely interested in helping homosexuals that have unwanted same-sex attractions. I think it is very self-centered and abusive for pro-gays to ostracize them and even drive them to suicide, just becasue they don't join the political pro-gay parade.
 
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SimplyMe

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I don't need to repeat what the paper already said about higher suicide rates from broken gay-relationships (2/3 of all gay suicides), bulemia 15 times higher among gay men, etc. which clearly have nothing to do with social stigma. The social stigma argument has been around since the early 80s and it is inadequate for explaining ALL the mental illness issues.

No one is claiming it cause "ALL the mental illness issues", that is a straw man on your part. The problem is that you seem to deny that social stigma causes ANY problems, which is equally unfounded. The question is what degree it causes.

As for Bulimia, let's try looking at what a medical site claims the causes are: Genetics (hmm... maybe truth to homosexuality being genetic?) and seratonin levels which are also linked to depression (which we know has a strong societal influence). In fact, the article when talking of causes even says, "Experts agree that cultural factors are very important in the development of eating disorders." What is this about bulimia having nothing to do with societal stigma?

Last, one of the problems with his "research" is that while it lists suicide attempts as being caused by a breakup, he doesn't report or even admit that there are always secondary factors. In fact, suicide attempts are often "triggered" by a specific event but saying that is a reason for a suicide is the same as saying pressure on a trigger is the "reason" for murder. The facts are, if you would actually look at the research, is that many of these people already feel rejected by society and so it is the rejection by that one "someone special" that causes the attempt -- in other words it was societal rejection that caused the problem to begin with.

And even that is totally ignoring the fact that gay couples are often frowned on when they leave the house (how dare they flaunt their sexuality in public?), they have no societal structures to help maintain the relationship (no marriage or the thousand plus marriage benefits), etc.; it seems truly myopic to claim that even the break ups have nothing to do with societal stress. There was even a thread on this board talking of how 90% of unmarried couples break up -- obviously societal factors play a huge role.


MercyBurst said:
I thought the paper was very well researched myself.

I never said it wasn't well researched. He did a good job of finding studies that he could use that would support his claims. It doesn't change the fact that it's bad science and that his conclusions are not actually supported by the research he presents.

MercyBurst said:
All of your arguments have been carefully considered. I see no new information being provided by you or others that wasn't already here when the srudies were conducted.

Again, of course there is no new information. We've claimed all along that there is no evidence that homosexuality is the cause of higher rates of mental illness. These studies don't change that fact, no matter how some people try to twist the research.

MercyBurst said:
I think his argument is very reasonable: If a person is willing to discard any value of life in the "extreme pursuit" of sexual pleasure (as he puts it) -- this does look like a mental illness, regardless of gender orientation. I have to be totally honest and agree with him.

Of course you feel it's reasonable, it's what you've been trying to prove all along. It's like people who use political pundits to "prove" their ideas on politics are correct -- but in fact what is being offered is still opinion. The problem is that most gays don't live "the homosexual lifestyle" and to try to draw blanket conclusions of all gays based on that "lifestyle" is no different than trying to make conclusions of all heterosexuals based on a similar promiscuous lifestyle.
 
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ReverendDG

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I disagree. If someone is willing to sacrifice their life for an addictive compulsion -- methinks they have a BIG problem.

We are entitled to different opinions.
well then a lot of hetro men have a problem, since many men seem to think acting *anything* like a woman is bad or to be considered "gay" by anyone is a horrible thing
even to the point of killing gay people for fear of becoming gay somehow

is this mentally stable? i think not but there are a large group of men who think "does this make me look gay" is worth thinking about

i agree everyone is entitle to different opinions, but laws and rights should not be based around opinions that are detrimental to the disliked
 
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MercyBurst

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That wasn't really my point, though. My point was that the idea of a 'male heterosexual lifestyle' (in its 'most extreme form' or otherwise) is ludicrous and would never be taken seriously.. yet people seem to have no problem with the (equally ridiculous) concept of a 'male homosexual lifestyle'.


Fillerbunny, is it just me? I think you have completely ignored the main points in the study. Your point was already addressed in the research that I posted. Might I quote again:

Ellis et al. (1995) examined patients at an clinic
which focused on genital and urological problems such
as STD's; he found 38% of the homosexual men seeking
such services had antisocial personality disorder, as
well as 28% of heterosexual men. Both levels were
enormously higher than the 2% rate of antisocial
personality disorder for the general population (which
in turn, compares to the 50% rate for prison inmates)
(Matthews 1997).

The assumption here is that people with STDs generally live a more promiscuous lifestyle, and they were found to have a much higher rate of personality disorders. This was true regardless of gender orientation, which I've already stated. A sex-addict has something wrong and they need help. Nymphomania comes to mind as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymphomania

It's in the ICD as Hypersexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_addiction

As usual the DSM doesn't consider anything to be sexual addiction. Where is that ostrich picture? The APA is irrelevant for helping people in matters of sexuality.

Let's go to somebody else that can help:

According Patrick Carnes ("Out of the Shadows") - the cycle begins with the "Core Beliefs" that sex addicts hold:
  1. "I am basically a bad, unworthy person."
  2. "No one would love me as I am."
  3. "My needs are never going to be met if I have to depend on others."
  4. "Sex is my most important need."
These beliefs drive the addiction on its progressive and destructive course:
  • Pain agent
First a pain agent is triggered / emotional discomfort (e.g. shame, anger, unresolved conflict) Sex addict is not able to take care of the pain agent in a healthy way.
  • Disassociation.
Prior to acting out sexually, the sex addict goes through a period of mental preoccupation or obsession. Sex addict begins to disassociate (moves away from his feelings. A separation begins to take place between his mind and his emotional self.
  • Altered state of consciousness / a trance state / bubble of euphoric fantasized experience
Sex addict is disconnected from his emotions and he becomes pre-occupied with acting out behaviours. The reality becomes blocked out/distorted.
  • Preoccupation or “sexual pressure” involves obsessing about being sexual or romantic
Fantasy becomes an obsession that serves in some way to avoid life. The addict’s thoughts become focused on reaching a mood-altering high without actually acting-out sexually. He thinks about sex to produce a trance-like state of arousal in order to fully eliminate feelings of the current pain of reality. Thinking about sex and planning out how to reach [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] can continue for minutes or hours before moving into the next stage of the cycle.
  • Ritualization or “acting out”.
These obsessions are intensified through the use of ritualization or acting out. A sex addict first cruises and then goes to a strip show to heighten his arousal until he is beyond the point of saying no. Ritualization helps to put distance between reality and sexual obsession. Rituals are a way to induce trance and further separate oneself from reality. Once the addict has begun his ritual, the chances of stopping that cycle diminish greatly. He is giving into the pull of the compelling sex act.
  • Sexual compulsivity
The next phase of the cycle is sexual compulsivity or “sex act”. The tensions that the addict feels are reduced by acting on their sexual feelings. They feel better for the moment, thanks to the release that occurs. Compulsivity simply means that addicts regularly get to the point where sex becomes inevitable, no matter what the circumstances or the consequences. The compulsive act, which normally ends in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], is perhaps the starkest reminder of the degradation involved in the addiction as the person realizes that he has become nothing more than a slave to the addiction.
  • Despair
Almost immediately reality sets in and the Addict begins to feel ashamed. Like a dog, he has returned to his vomit. This point of the cycle is a painful place where the Addict has been many, many times. The last time the Addict was at this low point, they probably promised to never do it again. Yet once again, they act out and that leads to despair. He has betrayed God, possibly a wife, and his own sense of integrity. At a superficial level, the addict hopes that this will be the last battle.
For many addicts, this dark emotion brings on depression and feelings of hopelessness. One easy way to cure feelings of despair is to start obsessing all over again. The cycle then perpetuates itself (Carnes, "Facing the Shadow" 2006).

The APA has no interest in helping people with thses issues. "APA" must stand for Anti-Philantropy-Association.
 
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SimplyMe

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I disagree. If someone is willing to sacrifice their life for an addictive compulsion -- methinks they have a BIG problem.

We are entitled to different opinions.

Yet another strawman. Being gay is not an addictive compulsion.

Though since you bring it up, an addiction compulsion in either a heterosexual or a homosexual is called "sexual addiction" which is a mental disease and fully treatable -- even for homosexuals.
 
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SimplyMe

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Fillerbunny, is it just me? I think you have completely ignored the main points in the study. Your point was already addressed in the research that I posted. Might I quote again:



The assumption here is that people with STDs generally live a more promiscuous lifestyle, and they were found to have a much higher rate of personality disorders. This was true regardless of gender orientation, which I've already stated. A sex-addict has something wrong and they need help. Nymphomania comes to mind as well.

I believe it is just you. Fillerbunny, from what I see, is simply trying to point out that the entire "homosexual lifestyle" is yet another straw man. You try to say that Homosexual equals homosexual lifestyle, therefore all homosexuals live a promiscuous lifestyle and are therefore evil.

It would be about the same as me claiming that obviously all men troll singles bars nightly looking for women to take home for a one-night stand, that this is the homosexual male lifestyle, and then ask you when you are going to repent of your "evil lifestyle" since you are male.
 
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