ZoneChaos/LouisBooth/Josephus...pop quiz

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edpobre

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The following statements are TRUTHS recorded in the Bible.

Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Jesus HAS flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

Jesus was FOREORDAINED from the foundations of the world (1 Peter 1:20).

Jesus proceeded forth and CAME from God (John 8:42).

Jesus was PROMISED to the serpent in the garden (Gen. 3:15).

Jesus is Abraham's seed to whom God's covenant with Abraham WILL CONTINUE (Gen 17:7).

Jesus is the PROPHET whom God promised to Moses (Deut. 18:1:cool: .

Jesus is the CHILD whom a virgin will conceive and bear and whose name will be called Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14).

Jesus is the MAN who is the only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

Jesus is the MAN through whom God did miracles, wonders and signs (Acts 2:22).

Jesus is the MAN whom God appointed to judge the world (Acts 17:31).

Jesus is the MAN whom God exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior (Acts 5:31).

Jesus is the MAN whom God EXALTED to His right hand to give repentance to Israel, the forgiveness of sins (Acts 5:31).

Jesus is the MAN whom God MADE both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).

Jesus is the MAN who CRIED "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34).

Jesus is the MAN who said "FATHER, into your hands I commend my spirit." (Luke 23:46).

Jesus is the MAN whom God RAISED from the dead (Rom. 10:9).

Jesus is the MAN who ATE broiled fish after God RAISED him from the deaad (Luke 24:41-42).

Jesus is the MAN who says he is ascending to HIS Father and to HIS God (John 20:17).

Jesus is the MAN who sits at the RIGHT hand of God (Col. 3:1).

Jesus is the MAN who will SUBJECT HIMSELF to God after everything has been placed under his feet (1 Cor. 15:27-2:cool: .

Jesus is the LAMB who says "I'm Alpha and Omega" in Rev. 1:11.

Jesus is the LAMB who takes the scroll out of the right hand of the ONE WHO SAT on the throne (Rev. 5:6-7).

God is SPIRIT (John 4:24).

God DOES NOT HAVE flesh and bones as Jesus has (Luke 24:39).

God is NOT a man nor son of man (Num. 23:19).

God DOES what He says and MAKES GOOD what He has spoken (Num. 23:19).

The God of the OT is the FATHER (Ps. 100:3; Is. 63:16; Is. 64::cool: .

The Father CREATED us all (Mal. 2:10; Rev.. 4:11).

The FATHER is the ONLY one God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6).

Questions:

Please show us how the doctrine that Jesus is God can be true without making any of the above statements false.

Please show us how the Trinity doctrine can be true without making any of the above statements false.

Note:

In answering these questions, please be guided by the following:

Deut. 12:32 - "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it; thou shall not add thereto nor diminish from it."

Rev. 22:18 - "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book. If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."

Rev. 22:19 - "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Ed
 

ZoneChaos

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Here are some verses that support the view of the trinity:

Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

We know whay it is safe to do anything in the name of the Fther, but why the SOn if the Son is not God, and why the Spirit of the Spirit is not a person to be recognized? The frist would be blasphemy and the seconf redundant, unless all three are God.

1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."

Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).


The trinity doctrine agrees with these two statements. Jesus is a Man and the Fasther is the only True God. The trinity Doctrine goes on to say that Jesus is also that same true God as the Father. This does not contradict the verses, nor does it add to them.

God is NOT a man nor son of man (Num. 23:19).


Numbers 23:19 is speaking of the Immutability. The writer of numbers says that "God is not a man, that He should lie." Man does change, and through this, we lie[sin]. The writer of numbers is strengthening the immutibility of God by saying look, unlike us, God does not change. We change becasue we are man, God does not change, becasue He is God. IJN the passage, there was a question of the vision that God gave Balaam. Balaam, repeated as a testament of God to Balak, about the nature of God as unchanging, thus incapable of a lie. He then shows Balak the vision is from God, and must then be true.

Further more, Jesus, who is God, did come as a maa, but He was a Son of God. Jesus was not born from a [human] man.

The rest of the statements that I did not respond to, The trinity agrees with as they are.

ZC
 
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LouisBooth

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Kinda funny how you had to do that..I'll explain a few and if you want more explaintion you can e-mail me ed. If not I will assume you aren't searching for the truth but have a hardened heart and have already made up your mind without studying the word or guidence from the HS.

"Jesus HAS flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)."

True..but not perishable ones now anyway :) so what does this prove..check John chapter 1..word is God and it became flesh. This doesn't prove anything!


"Jesus was FOREORDAINED God from the foundations of the world (1 Peter 1:20)."

Umm..did you read the next verse? your faith and hope are in Christ and it says your faith and hope are in God in the next verse..so here yet again the bible says Jesus is God.

Umm..this verse doesn't say that Jesus wasn't God either..it says He was chosen to be the lamb..I can choose myself to do something ed..:lol:


"Jesus proceeded forth and CAME from God (John 8:42)."

Any verse in John I will just refer you back to John chapter 1 for in any narritive the author usually defines his characters and who they are in the openning and John clearlly shows that in chapter 1 Jesus is God.

"Jesus was PROMISED to the serpent in the garden (Gen. 3:15)."

Umm...so? he was born of women but was pre-exsistant. Phil 2:5-8 shows that clearly. Still doesn't refute christ's diety.

"Please show us how the Trinity doctrine can be true without making any of the above statements false."

how many do I have to go through ed? All of them mesh with the trinity docterine. This was all discussed way back in 180 to 200 AD :) why bring up old arugements?


 
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edpobre

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ZoneChaos,

Here are some verses that support the view of the trinity:


Thanks for replying ZC. Let's go over each of these together.

Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

We know whay it is safe to do anything in the name of the Fther, but why the SOn if the Son is not God, and why the Spirit of the Spirit is not a person to be recognized? The frist would be blasphemy and the seconf redundant, unless all three are God.


As you yourself know, this verse (Matt. 28:19) does not specifically say that the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Otherwise you wouldn't be asking these questions. Thus, all you have here is inference that leads to your conclusion that all three are God.

Christ commands one to be baptized in the NAME (authority) of the FATHER who CALLS people by the gospel (2 Thes. 2:14) and delivers them from the power of darkness and TRANSLATES them INTO the kingdom of His SON in whom there is redemption and forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14), one is SEALED by the HOLY SPIRIT of promise (Eph. 1:13) who is the guarantee of the inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (Eph. 1:14).

The purchased possession is the church of Christ (Acts 20:28 Lamsa).

1 Cor. 12:4-6, Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.


This verse does not specifically say that the three are God.

2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.


This is simply a doxology to praise God the Father for calling us, the Son who died for us and in whose body we find redemption and forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit who seals us and comforts us and reminds us of all the things that Christ taught.

1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."


Again a doxology for their separate work in all believers.

Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

The trinity doctrine agrees with these two statements. Jesus is a Man and the Fasther is the only True God. The trinity Doctrine goes on to say that Jesus is also that same true God as the Father. This does not contradict the verses, nor does it add to them.


John 17:3 says that the Father is the ONLY true God.

The Trinity which is not a WORD of God says that Jesus is ALSO the SAME true God as the Father.

Clearly, the Trinity CONTRADICTS John 17:3 because ONLY is not the same as ALSO. Besides, Jesus is NOT the SON but the Father.

God is NOT a man NOR son of man (Num. 23:19).

Numbers 23:19 is speaking of the Immutability. The writer of numbers says that "God is not a man, that He should lie." Man does change, and through this, we lie[sin]. The writer of numbers is strengthening the immutibility of God by saying look, unlike us, God does not change. We change becasue we are man, God does not change, becasue He is God. IJN the passage, there was a question of the vision that God gave Balaam. Balaam, repeated as a testament of God to Balak, about the nature of God as unchanging, thus incapable of a lie. He then shows Balak the vision is from God, and must then be true.

Further more, Jesus, who is God, did come as a maa, but He was a Son of God. Jesus was not born from a [human] man.


If God does not change, can He then become a man in the person of Jesus? The Bible says Jesus was born of a woman (human). Isaiah 7:14 says, a virgin will conceive and bear a son. That son is Jesus.

The Trinity contradicts John 8:40; John 17:3 and Num. 23:19.

Ed
 
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LouisBooth

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"Thus, all you have here is inference that leads to your conclusion that all three are God."

umm..ed? so now there are three Gods..you're getting wilder all the time :)

"The Trinity which is not a WORD of God says that Jesus is ALSO the SAME true God as the Father. "

Ed, I think you need to read some church history. Ireanus knew eachly what this idea was..:) I think you misunderstand the term. I have a great book if you want it.

"If God does not change, can He then become a man in the person of Jesus? "

Ed, you're missing it. God doesn't change but how he relates to us does! This is what the trinity is all about!

"The Bible says Jesus was born of a woman (human). Isaiah 7:14 says, a virgin will conceive and bear a son. That son is Jesus."

You never answered my question ed. Do you think God the father came down and had sex with Mary?
 
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edpobre

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LouisBooth,

"Jesus HAS flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)."

True..but not perishable ones now anyway so what does this prove..check John chapter 1..word is God and it became flesh. This doesn't prove anything!


Jesus says God is Spirit (John 4:24) and DOES NOT have flesh and bones (perishable or not) as Jesus has (Luke 24:39). Thus, God DID NOT become flesh as many, whose hearts have been hardened by the evil one, believe.

"Jesus was FOREORDAINED from the foundations of the world (1 Peter 1:20)."

Umm..did you read the next verse? your faith and hope are in Christ and it says your faith and hope are in God in the next verse..so here yet again the bible says Jesus is God.


Can you see how blind you are Louis? Verse 21 says that " GOD RAISED him (Jesus) from the dead and gave him (Jesus) glory, so that your faith and hope are in GOD (not Jesus).

And you say that because of verse 21, "the bible says Jesus is God." What a liar you are!

"Jesus proceeded forth and CAME from God (John 8:42)."

Any verse in John I will just refer you back to John chapter 1 for in any narritive the author usually defines his characters and who they are in the openning and John clearlly shows that in chapter 1 Jesus is God.


Your heart is as hard as a rock Louis. John 8:42 is Jesus speaking. John only recorded what he heard Jesus say. What you see in chapter 1 of John is what your hardened heart tells you to see. Chapter 1 of John DOES NOT say that Jesus is God.

"Jesus was PROMISED to the serpent in the garden (Gen. 3:15)."

Umm...so? he was born of women but was pre-exsistant. Phil 2:5-8 shows that clearly. Still doesn't refute christ's diety.


Phil. 2:5-8 DOES NOT show clearly that Jesus pre-existed. Again, it is only your twisted interpretation of the verse that tells you what you want to believe.

"Please show us how the Trinity doctrine can be true without making any of the above statements false."

how many do I have to go through ed? All of them mesh with the trinity docterine. This was all discussed way back in 180 to 200 AD why bring up old arugements?


Are you afraid you won't be able to repeat your fabricated arguments? Let's see how consitently you can tell a lie.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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LouisBooth,

Thus, all you have here is inference that leads to your conclusion that all three are God."

umm..ed? so now there are three Gods..you're getting wilder all the time


Isn't that what you believe in Louis? One, God the Father, two, God the Son and three, God the Holy Spirit. Three Gods in ONE.

"The Trinity which is not a WORD of God says that Jesus is ALSO the SAME true God as the Father. "

Ed, I think you need to read some church history. Ireanus knew eachly what this idea was.. I think you misunderstand the term. I have a great book if you want it.


The Bible is the ONLY word of God Louis. And according to Jesus, it is the ONLY truth that sanctifies (John 17:17). Any book, no matter how great anyone thinks of it, that contradicts what the Bible teaches is TRASH because it does NOT led anyone o eternal life.

"If God does not change, can He then become a man in the person of Jesus? "

Ed, you're missing it. God doesn't change but how he relates to us does! This is what the trinity is all about!


You are losing your mind Louis. The issue here is whether God, who is Spirit, CHANGES and can BECOME a man, who is flesh and bones, in the person of Jesus.

You say God doesn't change then change the subject to God's relating to us, which is alien to the discussion. Like the Trinity, your kind of reasoning is designed to mislead.

"The Bible says Jesus was born of a woman (human). Isaiah 7:14 says, a virgin will conceive and bear a son. That son is Jesus."

You never answered my question ed. Do you think God the father came down and had sex with Mary


Again, your question i immaterial and irrelevant to the discussion. Only an immature, childish fanatic can think about what you are thinking.

Ed
 
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ZoneChaos

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Jesus says God is Spirit (John 4:24) and DOES NOT have flesh and bones


Jesus did say God is Spirit. The verse in John says nothing more, so how is it you claim that Jesus also said the God Does not have flesh and bones in that verse?

Can you see how blind you are Louis? Verse 21 says that " GOD RAISED him (Jesus) from the dead and gave him (Jesus) glory, so that your faith and hope are in GOD (not Jesus).


You missed her point. The Bibloe states in another passage of scripture that our fiath and hope lies in Jesus Christ.

"hope in our Lord Jesus Christ" - I Thess., ch 1
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. " - Gal. ch 3

LB then points out that verse 21 says that our faith and hope are in God. Is it either or? No it is both, but only God saves us, thus both are attributed to being God.

Phil. 2:5-8 DOES NOT show clearly that Jesus pre-existed. Again, it is only your twisted interpretation of the verse that tells you what you want to believe.


What does it say to you, then , Ed?

"Who, being in the form of God (Jesus is God), thought it not robbery to be equal with God (they are one God): But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant 9became a man, which implies an existance ahead of time to do so), and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross"

I read it, and it is clear to me that it says that Jesus was in the form of God, and that was ok. Andbeing in this form became a man (had to pre-esist to do this) and that as a mna, he died.

Are you afraid you won't be able to repeat your fabricated arguments? Let's see how consitently you can tell a lie.


Read everypost in the Round Table on the Trinity and you will see LB's consistancy, my consistancy, and everyones consistancy who beleives the Trinity to be true.
 
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LouisBooth

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"Isn't that what you believe in Louis? One, God the Father, two, God the Son and three, God the Holy Spirit. Three Gods in ONE."


Yes, but that's not polytheism ed :) I would say its more that God reflected in three aspects in how he "works" with us. They are all God but they are one God...hence monotheism. Why don't you read some thoughts by Turtillian (sp), he explains it rather well.

"Any book, no matter how great anyone thinks of it, that contradicts what the Bible teaches is TRASH because it does NOT led anyone o eternal life."

I agree ed, but this doesn't contradict whats in the bible like the things you say. It is a very smart theologian that dealt with the same problem you are in about the 3 or 4th century :)

"You are losing your mind Louis. The issue here is whether God, who is Spirit, CHANGES and can BECOME a man, who is flesh and bones, in the person of Jesus."

Word=God, Word becomes flesh, that's very clear in chapter 1 ed ;)

"You say God doesn't change then change the subject to God's relating to us, which is alien to the discussion. "

No, its not alien at all. God's three persons are how he relates to us, but they are all still God. I'm just trying to simplify it for you ed, because you don't seem to understand the concept of the trinity.

"Again, your question i immaterial and irrelevant to the discussion. Only an immature, childish fanatic can think about what you are thinking."

Is that a no? Because that's what your advocating when you say he is the son of God. If he's human then Mary had to have sex with someone to get him..a Fully human person doesn't just spring into exsistance, Adam did and was the only one and God made him from the dirt. So is that a no? How did Jesus come into being then ed?
 
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edpobre

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ZoneChaos,

ED: Jesus says God is Spirit (John 4:24) and DOES NOT have flesh and bones

ZC: Jesus did say God is Spirit. The verse in John says nothing more, so how is it you claim that Jesus also said the God Does not have flesh and bones in that verse?


In John 4:24, Jesus says that God is Spirit. And in Luke 24:39, Jesus says (after God raised him from the dead) that a Spirit (which God is) doesn't have flesh and bones as he has.

As apostle Paul wrote, the Holy Spirit teaches us to "compare spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13) - NOT spiritual things with NATURAL thinsgs.

ED:Can you see how blind you are Louis? Verse 21 says that " GOD RAISED him (Jesus) from the dead and gave him (Jesus) glory, so that your faith and hope are in GOD (not Jesus).

ZC: You missed her point. The Bibloe states in another passage of scripture that our fiath and hope lies in Jesus Christ.

"hope in our Lord Jesus Christ" - I Thess., ch 1
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. " - Gal. ch 3

LB then points out that verse 21 says that our faith and hope are in God. Is it either or? No it is both, but only God saves us, thus both are attributed to being God.


This is NOT what LB pointed. She pointed out that because of verse 21, Jesus is God. Sure, our faith and hope are both in God and in Christ. But again, this is NOT wht LB pointed out.

ED: Phil. 2:5-8 DOES NOT show clearly that Jesus pre-existed. Again, it is only your twisted interpretation of the verse that tells you what you want to believe.

ZC: What does it say to you, then , Ed?

"Who, being in the form of God (Jesus is God), thought it not robbery to be equal with God (they are one God): But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant 9became a man, which implies an existance ahead of time to do so), and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross"

I read it, and it is clear to me that it says that Jesus was in the form of God, and that was ok. Andbeing in this form became a man (had to pre-esist to do this) and that as a mna, he died.


Before making any interpretation and conclusion on what a verse means, we MUST first determine what the TRUTHS are. Then, as apostle Paul teaches, we COMPARE spiritual things with spiritual (1 Cor. 2:13) and be GUIDED by the TRUTHS in arriving at our interpretation and conclusion.

TRUTHS regarding the state of being of Christ:

Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40).
The Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
Apostle Paul says for Christians, there is only one God the Father (1 Cor. 8:6).
Apostle Paul says Jesus is a MAN (1 Tim. 2:5).
Apostle Paul says God is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Col. 1:3; Eph. 1:3).

TRUTHS regarding the pre-existence of Christ:

Jesus was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20).
Jesus was PROMISED to the serpent (Gen. 3:15).
Jesus is Abraham's SEED (Gen. 17:7).
Jesus was PROMISED to Moses (Deut. 18:1:cool: .
Jesus PROMISED by God as a sign (Isaiah 7:14).
Jesus PROPHESIED by Isaiah (Isaiah 49:1-7; 53:3).

TRUTHS regarding the powers of Christ:

God DID miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Christ (Acts 2:22).
God RAISED Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9).
God MADE Jesus both Lord and CHRIST (Acts 2:36).
God MADE Jesus both Prince and SAVIOR (Acts 5:31).
God GAVE Jesus all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:1:cool: .
God GAVE Jesus authority to FORGIVE sins (Acts 5:31; Mark 2:10).

In view of the above, Phil. 2:5-8 does NOT mean that Jesus WAS and/or is God.

Ed
 
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ZoneChaos

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Jesus says (after God raised him from the dead) that a Spirit (which God is) doesn't have flesh and bones as he has.


Luke 24: 38-39 "And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. "

"spirit" in Luke 24 i not the same word as "Spirit" in John 4. The Deciples beleived that they were seeing a ghost, an Jesus was telling them that if they were, would he have flesh and bones?

And in response to everything else you said:

Saying the the Father is the only True God does not eleminate the Son also as the the Only Ture God.

You can say "The Father is the only True God" and youn can say the Son is the only true God." Both are true, and both are supported by the Trinty becasue there is only one True God, of which the Father is and of which the Son is.

The Trinity doctrine is not saying that the Son is 1/3 the True God, and the Father is ot 1/3 the True God and the Spirit is 1/3 the True God, but that they all are 100% The True God.
 
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edpobre

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Josephus,

You wrote:
Let me ask you a question ed before I post all sorts of scripture proving Jesus is God.

Most of it rests on this:

do you believe that God could ever be a man?


You are asking if I believe that God COULD ever be a man. Yes He COULD -"For with God, nothing will be impossible (Luke 1:37). But WOULD He?

Does God WANT to become a man? In Numbers 23:19, God says that He is NOT a man NOR Son of Man (Jesus favorite expression).

God further says that everything He says, He does and makes good. God reiterates the TRUTH that He is God NOT man in Hosea 11:9.

Since God does NOT lie, then God is TRULY not a man.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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ZoneChaos,

ED: Jesus says (after God raised him from the dead) that a Spirit (which God is) doesn't have flesh and bones as he has.

ZC:Luke 24: 38-39 "And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. "

"spirit" in Luke 24 i not the same word as "Spirit" in John 4. The Deciples beleived that they were seeing a ghost, an Jesus was telling them that if they were, would he have flesh and bones?


Who told you that "spirit" in Luke 24 is not the same word as "Spirit" in John 4? Granted without admitting that you are right, where in the Bible does it say that the Spirit in John 4 has flesh and bones?

You wrote:
And in response to everything else you said:

Saying the the Father is the only True God does not eleminate the Son also as the the Only Ture God.

You can say "The Father is the only True God" and youn can say the Son is the only true God." Both are true, and both are supported by the Trinty becasue there is only one True God, of which the Father is and of which the Son is.


In another post you agreed that the SON is NOT one and the same God as the FATHER. Now you are saying that they are BOTH only true God because the Trinity says so. How can two different and separate entities be both "only true God" unless they are ONE and the SAME God? Can't you see how absurd the Trinity is?

You wrote:
The Trinity doctrine is not saying that the Son is 1/3 the True God, and the Father is ot 1/3 the True God and the Spirit is 1/3 the True God, but that they all are 100% The True God.


Trinity is a man-made doctrine that DISTORTS what the Bible, the inspired word of God teaches. If you believe what the Trinity doctrine is saying, then you don't believe what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that the "only true God" is the FATHER. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit or power (Isaiah 48:16b TEV) and Jesus is God's only begotten son, a MAN (John 8:40).

Ed
 
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edpobre

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LouisBooth,

ED: "Isn't that what you believe in Louis? One, God the Father, two, God the Son and three, God the Holy Spirit. Three Gods in ONE."

LB: Yes, but that's not polytheism ed I would say its more that God reflected in three aspects in how he "works" with us. They are all God but they are one God...hence monotheism. Why don't you read some thoughts by Turtillian (sp), he explains it rather well.


That's what you say Louis, NOT what the Bible says. Anyone can say anything one wants in defense of what one believes. But that is not the truth and it does not lead to eternal life. Turtillian may have explained it well to your liking but if everything he says is not recorded in the Bible, it's good for nothing.

ED: "Any book, no matter how great anyone thinks of it, that contradicts what the Bible teaches is TRASH because it does NOT led anyone o eternal life."

LB:I agree ed, but this doesn't contradict whats in the bible like the things you say. It is a very smart theologian that dealt with the same problem you are in about the 3 or 4th century


How can satetements like "they are ALL (three of them) God but they are ONE God" NOT contradict what the Bible teaches? The SON says the the FATHER, "you are the only true God". And you say that the SON is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the FATHER.

Isn't this a blatant contradiction of wht the Bible says? C'mmon Louis, you don't expect me to believe you. Do you?

ED:"You are losing your mind Louis. The issue here is whether God, who is Spirit, CHANGES and can BECOME a man, who is flesh and bones, in the person of Jesus."

LB:Word=God, Word becomes flesh, that's very clear in chapter 1 ed


Your interpretation of John 1:14 does not agree with the TRUTH Louis. It was the WORD of God that became flesh - NOT God who SPOKE the WORD.

ED: "You say God doesn't change then change the subject to God's relating to us, which is alien to the discussion. "

LB: No, its not alien at all. God's three persons are how he relates to us, but they are all still God. I'm just trying to simplify it for you ed, because you don't seem to understand the concept of the trinity.


You said "God doesn't change" Louis. Then tell me how God can change into or become a man without you contradicting what you said. If God became a man, then isn't it true that God changes? Which is it Louis, does God change or not?

ED: "Again, your question i immaterial and irrelevant to the discussion. Only an immature, childish fanatic can think about what you are thinking."

LB:Is that a no? Because that's what your advocating when you say he is the son of God. If he's human then Mary had to have sex with someone to get him..a Fully human person doesn't just spring into exsistance, Adam did and was the only one and God made him from the dirt. So is that a no? How did Jesus come into being then ed?


Did God make sex with the dirt Louis? Adam is called son of God too you know (Luke 3:3:cool: . Did the dirt have to have sex with someone to get Adam?

The "only true God" is the FATHER. Jesus is the SON. Therefore, Jesus is NOT the only true God. Can't you understand how simple it all is?

Ed
 
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ZoneChaos

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Who told you that "spirit" in Luke 24 is not the same word as "Spirit" in John 4?


"But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

These verses are not talking about God when they talk about a spirit. This is so plainly clear in this verse.

where in the Bible does it say that the Spirit in John 4 has flesh and bones?


I never said there was a place that is said the "Spirit" had flesh and bones, but you claim, and as yet to show, that there is a place in scripture that says it does not.

In another post you agreed that the SON is NOT one and the same God as the FATHER.


Considering your reputation that you have shown thus far, ED.. you had better quote this in your next post Or I will ban you. I have never said that the Son is not the same God as the Father. On the contrary, I have stated many times that the Son and the Father are the same God. I have dsaid that the SOn is not one and the same as the Father, for they are both sperate entities, but they are both the same God.

How can two different and separate entities be both "only true God" unless they are ONE and the SAME God?


How? becasue that is their nature as described in the Bible. And yes they are One and the same God. But the Son is not the same as the Father as you claim I said above.

[quoe]The Bible teaches that the "only true God" is the FATHER. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit or power (Isaiah 48:16b TEV) and Jesus is God's only begotten son, a MAN (John 8:40).[/quote]

Yes, all cases arew true. the Trinity doesnot say diferent, but the Trinity Doctrine is also saying, based upon scripture, that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are all seperate entities, who are all the One God.
 
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ZoneChaos

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The SON says the the FATHER, "you are the only true God". And you say that the SON is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the FATHER.


Umm.. these two statements are not a contradiction. It is possible for The Father ot be the One true God, and the SOn to also be that same God. SInce we are tlaking about 1 God, and not 2 or 3, then both statements are ture. The Father is the ONe true God and the Son is the one True God. Both of them are the One true God. You may not understand it, but it is not a contradiction.

Did the dirt have to have sex with someone to get Adam?


Only if God was not God, but was just a man, and nothing more.

Only an immature, childish fanatic can think about what you are thinking."


Preaching to the masses? How many people are you calling childish and immature? :)
 
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edpobre

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ZoneChaos,

ED: Who told you that "spirit" in Luke 24 is not the same word as "Spirit" in John 4?

ZC: "But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

These verses are not talking about God when they talk about a spirit. This is so plainly clear in this verse.


C'mmon ZC, you are more intelligent than that. Whether Jesus and the apostles were talking about God or not, the TRUTH is, a SPIRIT (whatever it is) DOESN'T have flesh and bones as Jesus (a MAN) has.

ED: where in the Bible does it say that the Spirit in John 4 has flesh and bones?

ZC:I never said there was a place that is said the "Spirit" had flesh and bones, but you claim, and as yet to show, that there is a place in scripture that says it does not.


In Luke 24:39, Jesus clearly says that a SPIRIT (wherever it is found in the Bible) DOESN'T have flesh and bones as he has. Then there is no sense in saying that the "spiriot" in Luke 24:39 is NOT the same "Spirit" in John 4 because you yourself don't know which spirit Jesuswas talking about.

Suffice it to say that a "SPIRIT" whatever it is and wherever it is found DOS NOT flesh and bones as a MAN LIKE jESUS.

ED: In another post you agreed that the SON is NOT one and the same God as the FATHER.

ZC: Considering your reputation that you have shown thus far, ED.. you had better quote this in your next post Or I will ban you. I have never said that the Son is not the same God as the Father. On the contrary, I have stated many times that the Son and the Father are the same God. I have dsaid that the SOn is not one and the same as the Father, for they are both sperate entities, but they are both the same God.


That's precisely the reason why I was asked: How can two separate and distinct entities be the SAME God UNLESS they are "ONE and the same" which you yourself say is NOT the case.

Believe me ZC, I try my best NOT to put words in other people's mouth. That's why you see me quoting a lot of posts.

ED: How can two different and separate entities be both "only true God" unless they are ONE and the SAME God?

ZC: How? becasue that is their nature as described in the Bible. And yes they are One and the same God. But the Son is not the same as the Father as you claim I said above.


I have never claimed that you said the SON is the SAME as the Father. I understand your position perfectly. And I'm glad that is your position because I want you to explain how the SON can be God when Jesus clearly addresses the FATHER as the ONLY true God?

ED:The Bible teaches that the "only true God" is the FATHER. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit or power (Isaiah 48:16b TEV) and Jesus is God's only begotten son, a MAN (John 8:40).

ZC: Yes, all cases arew true. the Trinity doesnot say diferent, but the Trinity Doctrine is also saying, based upon scripture, that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are all seperate entities, who are all the One God.


Whose doctrine is the Trinity ZC? Who are the people who declared that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are ALL the ONE God? Where can we find this declaration or revelation ZC?

Jesus says in Luke 10:22 that "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and NO ONE knows WHO the SON is but the FATHER, and WHO the FATHER is but the SON, and the one to whom the SON wills to reveal Him."

The FATHER, on two occasions, REVEALED that Jesus is His SON and commands that we listen to His SON (Matt. 3:17: Matt. 17:5).

The SON, in his prayer to the Father, REVEALED that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

The SON also REVEALED that he is a MAN (John 8:40).

Thus, unless GOD sat on the Councils of Nicea in 325 AD and Constantinople in 381 AD, which AMENDED what God REVEALED about Jesus in Matt. 3:17; 17:5 and John 8:40 - to make it appear that Jesus is GOD; and what Jesus (the Son) REVEALED about the FATHER in John 17:3 - to make it appear that the FATHER is NOT the ONLY true God...

... the Trinity is what Jesus and the prophet Isaiah say is a commandment of men that is taught for doctrine. Those who do such thing worship God in vain.
(Matt. 15:9; Is. 29:13).

Ed
 
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C'mmon ZC, you are more intelligent than that. Whether Jesus and the apostles were talking about God or not, the TRUTH is, a SPIRIT (whatever it is) DOESN'T have flesh and bones as Jesus (a MAN) has.


I know that. But you said that "spirit" in this verse was God which changes the meaning of the verse. I don't doubt that they though Jesus was a sprit, but they didn't think he was God becaseu he was a spirit. Jesus explaine dthat he wasn't a spirit, becasue he had flesh and bones, but Jesus did not explain that he was not God becasue he had flesh and bones.

Your argument, in usage of the verse relies upon the fact that "spirit" in the verse=God. My point was that it didn't. Regarless of wether Jesus is a spriit here or not, the verse is not saying that Jesus is not God becasue He is not a spirit.

Suffice it to say that a "SPIRIT" whatever it is and wherever it is found DOS NOT flesh and bones as a MAN LIKE jESUS.


That is not enough to conclude that Jesus is not God, becasue God can be more than a spirit, as the Bible teaches.

All of you arguments show a part of God, but then they stop there Non of your arguments show that God is not osmething, they only show that he is something, but your arguments do not show that God is only what you claim. God is more than you make Him out to be.

That's precisely the reason why I was asked: How can two separate and distinct entities be the SAME God UNLESS they are "ONE and the same" which you yourself say is NOT the case.


So, no quote huh? Thought so. How? we will never undestand, we can only trust God's word. Three times, that I have seen you have called or inferred that other members of this board are liars, with no proof. This is the last time. You are on temp ban.

The Trinity Doctrine teaches that 3 seperate entities are the Same God, You said that I claimed that the Son (one of those entities) was the Father (another of those entities. I did not, and you coulds not show that I did.

I never said that the Son is not the same God as the Father. I have said the opposite.
 
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