What Ever Happened to Grace?

TheMatmanReturns said:

It's not an excuse to keep from giving much. I mean, really its not. (Admittedly, I am not in the position to give like I used to be, but even so, I still give.)

My concern has always been the dichotomy between legalism and grace, to wit: Galatians 3:1-5



Most of us would agree that having financial prosperity would be a miracle, right?

Well, from what I have been taught in charismatic circles, God will not bless your finances unless you give at least 10% of your income to the church.

Now, is this command to tithe strictly an OT command, or is it somehow incorporated into the NT?

If, indeed, it is incorporated into the NT, then fine. Game over. Be sure to give at least 10% this Sunday.

But if our obligation to tithe is purely an OT command, then why do our churches tell people that if they do not tithe (i.e., if they do not obey the law) then they will not see God perform a miracle in their finances?

I thought God performed miracles because we believed, and not because we could boast about our obedience to the law.

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The teaching I have received is very different, Mat. You are putting the cart before the horse. If God can't trust you with little, would it be wise of Him to trust you with much? So it isn't the tithing that opens you to prosperity, it is the lack of tithing (among other things) that may prevent it.

bstow said:

I read the verses 8 - 11 and included them below.
Mal 3:8-11
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
KJV

Offerings are important and are mentioned with tithes.

Then verse 10 only mentions the tithes. Verse 11 then states the advantages the tither receives, no more is said about offerings.

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Yes but the tithe is eaten in Jerusalem, not given to a building.

Deuteronomy 14:23 NIV
Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

You are trying to stick some of the criteria of the tithe onto the offering.

There is no scripture that says give 10% of your income to a church building.

lismore said:

Yes but the tithe is eaten in Jerusalem, not given to a building.

Deuteronomy 14:23 NIV
Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

You are trying to stick some of the criteria of the tithe onto the offering.

There is no scripture that says give 10% of your income to a church building.

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Agrarian/Industrial societies. Principle is the same, of course.

jrlinz said:

Agrarian/Industrial societies. Principle is the same, of course.

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No. The tithe is still eaten in Jerusalem today. Since 1948 Israel is back. You can no longer say the church has replaced Israel or Jerusalem because they are there. You can go up to jerusalem and tithe like the bible says. I have done it the last two years.

The tithe is to build up ZIon. Thats why God says to EAT the tithe there! And in these days it is most important of all to tithe in Jerusalem.

This talks of physcial rain and the rain of the SPirit. If you teach replacement theology and refuse to tithe God's way then this is what you will get:

Zechariah 14:17 NIV
If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain.

Psalm 102
13 You will arise and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to show favor to her;
the appointed time has come.

14 For her stones are dear to your servants;
her very dust moves them to pity. 15 The nations will fear the name of the LORD,
all the kings of the earth will revere your glory.

For the LORD will rebuild Zion and appear in his glory.

That is why God says:

Deuteronomy 14:23 NIV
Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

2 Chronicles 33:4 NIV
He built altars in the temple of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, "My Name will remain in Jerusalem forever."

Your church has not replaced Israel or jerusalem since God has said he has placed his name there.................forever. And God does not lie.

The tithe is to build up ZIon. Thats why God says to EAT the tithe there! And in these days it is most important of all to tithe in Jerusalem.

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-Listmore

Really? You are suggesting that Abraham knew of this when he tithed? Come on, your pulling my leg, right?

When Jesus threw out the money changers He threw out the Sanhedrins means of financial control of the temple.

The final question is answered in what Jesus said and did. So the question remains "Whatcha gonna do about Jesus?"

TheMatmanReturns said:

I'll keep this brief. I need to get off this computer fairly soon.

Tithing....

Are we Christians legally obligated to give 10% or more of our income to the church?

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No, I don't believe so. We are not obliged by the law of the land, we are not under OT law, and I'm not aware of any NT command or teaching that says a Christian HAS to tithe.

J4Jesus said:

Jesus Said

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, andnot to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:42
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

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Yes but Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law when he said this. These people, as Jews, were already under, and obeying, the law. Jesus did not say this to his disciples or establish it as a command for the future church.

Strong in Him said:

Yes but Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and teachers of the law when he said this. These people, as Jews, were already under, and obeying, the law. Jesus did not say this to his disciples or establish it as a command for the future church.

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Thats right. The NT model is for a Christian to give what they have purposed in their hearts to give and to give that figure cheerfully, whatever that figure is!

2 Corinthians 9:7 NIV
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

It does not say give your 10% cheerfully, it says give what you have decided cheerfully!.

lismore said:

Yes but the tithe is eaten in Jerusalem, not given to a building.

Deuteronomy 14:23 NIV
Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

You are trying to stick some of the criteria of the tithe onto the offering.

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Consider giving some study time to Deut. 26 in the light of the seventh chapter of Hebrews. Especially Hebrews 7:8.

Three times I've given instances of what Jesus had to say on the subject and instead of discussing what He meant you'all have sounded like scribes. Why are His ways swept aside like that? This is the exact reason religion turns me off completely. It comes into direct conflict with what He says and religion is debated to he** and back and He is ignored. No one cares what God said about things on earth. It doesn't matter to me what you guys waste your time on b/c it's written and your still responsible to hear.

Post #24 Jesus also said that the Son of the king doesn't pay taxes but the foriegnors do.

Post #34
Jesus' emphasis was almsgiving not tything. How unpopular is this belief?

Post #46 When Jesus threw out the money changers He threw out the Sanhedrins means of financial control of the temple.
The final question is answered in what Jesus said and did. So the question remains "Whatcha gonna do about Jesus?"

It might be worth discussing, no?

livinforChrist said:

Three times I've given instances of what Jesus had to say on the subject and instead of discussing what He meant you'all have sounded like scribes. Why are His ways swept aside like that? This is the exact reason religion turns me off completely. It comes into direct conflict with what He says and religion is debated to he** and back and He is ignored. No one cares what God said about things on earth. It doesn't matter to me what you guys waste your time on b/c it's written and your still responsible to hear.

Post #24 Jesus also said that the Son of the king doesn't pay taxes but the foriegnors do.

Post #34
Jesus' emphasis was almsgiving not tything. How unpopular is this belief?

Post #46 When Jesus threw out the money changers He threw out the Sanhedrins means of financial control of the temple.
The final question is answered in what Jesus said and did. So the question remains "Whatcha gonna do about Jesus?"

It might be worth discussing, no?

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Look, I stuggled through reading the first paragraph just out of sheer respect for my brother's and sister"s.

But hear me, I will ignore every other post you have from now on until you change your ignorantly miniscule font.

Change it into something readable or be ignored by at least me, and I pray fervently, everyone else.

Change your font!!!!!!!!

Be ignorant then.

livinforChrist said:

Be ignorant then.

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Ah, I see. You misunderstood. I don't care in the least what you have to say. At all. Nada.

I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Guess what? That's over!!!!

Edit

TheMatmanReturns said:

But your thesis pre-supposes that we as NT believers have an obligation to give no less than 10% of our income to God.

As Post #47 above illustrates, there is no passage in the NT which clearly states, "You are obligated to give 10% of your income to the Church." The only two NT passages which come close are conversations between the Lord and the Pharasees, who themselves were under the Law.

May I juxtapose this discussion against a discussion the Church fathers had in Acts 15? There had been a debate as to whether Gentile Christians were obligated to follow the Law. This was there final decision:

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

​

You will notice that the OT obligation to tithe is not listed in the above referenced requirements. Thus, unless you are a Messianic Jew, you have no obligation to give 10% of your income to God.

Now, with that said, we do have a NT obligation to give, but as others have referenced, the amount we are to give is to be determined in our own hearts.

Thus, if you can only afford to give 5% of your income, then give that. But if you can afford to give 45%, give that.

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The argument of "what you can afford" is some what shot to pieces by the parable of the widow's mite. I do not hold that a person is legally obligated to give 10%. However, I do seriously question myself when I find myself justifying keeping more and more of the money that comes in.

Tithing has been an issue on which I've struggled because I'm going to school so money is tight, and there are a few ways I could justify not paying a tithe.

I don't subscribe to "tithe because you'll get more back" theology, but I do believe that God is not going to be in debt to me, and I do believe that whoever gives anything up for God will be repaid. Thus I'd much rather err on the side of generosity and responsability to support those who minister, than to err on the side of personal gain and greed.

As I pointed out, thats my personal situation, its not the "law" by which all christians must act. However, this is an issue on which people need to be very careful because our human nature is very decietful and we are very good at justifying ourselves.

TheMatmanReturns said:

But your thesis pre-supposes that we as NT believers have an obligation to give no less than 10% of our income to God.

As Post #47 above illustrates, there is no passage in the NT which clearly states, "You are obligated to give 10% of your income to the Church." The only two NT passages which come close are conversations between the Lord and the Pharasees, who themselves were under the Law.

May I juxtapose this discussion against a discussion the Church fathers had in Acts 15? There had been a debate as to whether Gentile Christians were obligated to follow the Law. This was there final decision:

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.​

You will notice that the OT obligation to tithe is not listed in the above referenced requirements. Thus, unless you are a Messianic Jew, you have no obligation to give 10% of your income to God.

Now, with that said, we do have a NT obligation to give, but as others have referenced, the amount we are to give is to be determined in our own hearts.

Thus, if you can only afford to give 5% of your income, then give that. But if you can afford to give 45%, give that.

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That is YOUR interpretation. Very different from mine. I feel you have taken 'liberties' with the soverign word of the Almighty. Can you show me where in the Bible, specifically, we are released from tithing?

livinforChrist said:

Three times I've given instances of what Jesus had to say on the subject and instead of discussing what He meant you'all have sounded like scribes. Why are His ways swept aside like that? This is the exact reason religion turns me off completely. It comes into direct conflict with what He says and religion is debated to he** and back and He is ignored. No one cares what God said about things on earth. It doesn't matter to me what you guys waste your time on b/c it's written and your still responsible to hear.

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Sorry. I only read the first page of this thread before posting, so I missed yours. But these are my answers (for what they're worth).

1. Like I say, I haven't read all this thread, but I don't see what the verse you quoted about paying taxes has to do with the matter of tithing.

2. The OP asked if a Christian was legally obliged to tithe. You seem to have just answered the question by pointing out that Jesus' teaching was primarily about giving to others, rather than tithing. If he did not teach the latter, why do we need to do it?

3. Again I'm not sure what this has to do with tithing. Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple because the temple was a place of prayer, not a place for corrupt, commercial transactions. Everyone who went to the temple to sacrifice had to take an unblemished animal, according to the law. It was up to the priests to inspect these animals and declare them perfect. But some were apparently failing them, and telling worshippers they had to buy one of their animals - at a price, of course. As for moneychanging; this had to happen, because only temple money could be used in the temple. Ordinary coins had Caesar's head on them, Caesar was regarded as a god (most emperors were), and false gods could not be taken into God's house. So coins with the emperors image were changed for coins without. Perfectly fine - the problem was that people were charging high prices for what should have been a service. In other words, pilgrims and worshippers were being ripped off, and the poorer among them would have suffered.
This was what Jesus was against - exploitation of God's people. I doubt that chucking the moneylenders out removed the practice. In fact this account is mentioned twice in the Gospels. The synoptic Gospels say it happened after Palm Sunday, whereas John says the incident happened at the beginning of Jesus' ministry. If it did happen twice, then they obviously went back to the practice after the first time.

This has nothing to do with the question of whether or not a Christian should tithe, - give 10% of their money to God - though. So it's possible that people weren't responding to your posts for this reason, rather than because they/we were choosing to ignore Jesus words.