Iraqi Dead May Total 600,000

Status
Not open for further replies.

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Certain anti-Christians challenging the Christian faith on these boards do that all the time with the Bible to prove that Christians are violent terrorists.

"I came not to bring peace, but a sword."

And don't get me started on the Amelekites.

Charlie
The difference that I have been trying to elucidate, Charlie, is for us to look at the founders of Christianity and Islam. They are the examples of the proper way to live the religion. Was the founder of Islam a peaceloving guy, or a violent territorial expansionist? What about the founder of Christianity? Forget the dogmas that have developed since the passing of the founders. Let us examine the lives of Christ and Muhammed and find out from the source the nature of the two faiths.
 
Upvote 0

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Step back a few hundred years and look at Christianity and tell me what you see...a lot of violence. Step back another few hundred year and what do you see...yet more violence. Keep stepping back in time and you will see yet more Christian violence. Keep stepping back to the very first Christian Roman Emperor and what do you see...yet more violence.

Using your logic than, am I to assume that any reasonable person looking at Christian history should know that it is a violent religion?

.
Lets examine the lives of Muhammed and Jesus of Nazareth and find out from the source how the religion is supposed to be. Forget about what the followers do or have done. Lets look at what the founders did.
 
Upvote 0

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,456
1,441
56
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
You're wrong. Your claims of "islam advocates violence" would be like me saying "christianity advocates violence". Common sense indicates otherwise. You haven't shown anything besides your own persona bias and bigotry towards islam and muslims. :wave:
Which of the following historical figures was a violent territorial expansionist, Muhammed of Medina or Jesus of Nazareth? THe answer to this whole dilemma of which religion advocates violence will be answered there.
 
Upvote 0

Alabaster

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2005
1,047
78
50
✟1,684.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
The difference that I have been trying to elucidate, Charlie, is for us to look at the founders of Christianity and Islam. They are the examples of the proper way to live the religion. Was the founder of Islam a peaceloving guy, or a violent territorial expansionist? What about the founder of Christianity? Forget the dogmas that have developed since the passing of the founders. Let us examine the lives of Christ and Muhammed and find out from the source the nature of the two faiths.

Your comments betray a gross ignorance of the pervading scholarship of both Islam and Christianity.

1. Comparing Jesus and Muhammad cannot be done. Muhammad was a political and religious leader who had to deal with the exigencies of the political arena. Jesus was a spiritual leader who never held any political authority. Any comparison would have to gloss over this major distinction and would thus be invalid.
2. Oddly enough No scholar I know of has portrayed Muhammad as you have. Have you studied any of the actual scholarship concerning this period? If so, what. Most scholars I have read actually think Muhammad was very accommodating and peaceful given the political and cultural environment.
3. The same scholars would not characterize Islam as you have. I cannot think of a single respected scholar who would do so.

The Middle East is a unique region with peculiarities that must be understood within their context and periodicity. Oddly enough growing up in the US provides absolutely no cultural insight into these differences. Therefore some rather extensive study is not only desired, but also required for discourse on this subject, let alone the broad generalizations you attempt to make.

Nevertheless for an example, let’s assume you could find an English translation of the Koran. Simply reading the translation without the benefit of regional and religious understanding would be a personal injustice, not that such things have any real meaning any more.
 
Upvote 0

MachZer0

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place
Mar 9, 2005
61,058
2,302
✟79,109.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Your comments betray a gross ignorance of the pervading scholarship of both Islam and Christianity.

1. Comparing Jesus and Muhammad cannot be done. Muhammad was a political and religious leader who had to deal with the exigencies of the political arena. Jesus was a spiritual leader who never held any political authority.
A King has no political authority???
 
Upvote 0

Alabaster

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2005
1,047
78
50
✟1,684.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
A King has no political authority???

What are the geographic limits of this kingdom? What trade agreements were signed? What constitution was established? Etc…

Your insinuation that Jesus was a King, or insistence that the "Kingdom of God" is somehow synonymous with the political realities of the world is both theologically, historically, and politically incorrect. Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, so a comparison between a non-world political reality (however you would define this) and an actual flesh and blood political world is an incorrect comparison, as explained above.

I would not recommend venturing into this discussion like the above. Not understanding a complex subject like Islam or the Middle East is somewhat excusable (though one should know something before speaking), but it would be unfortunate if you did not know about your own religion.
 
Upvote 0

MachZer0

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place
Mar 9, 2005
61,058
2,302
✟79,109.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Your insinuation that Jesus was a King, or insistence that the "Kingdom of God" is somehow synonymous with the political realities of the world is both theologically, historically, and politically incorrect.
Can you offer some evidence in support of this claim or is this just another unsubtantiated assertion?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MachZer0

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place
Mar 9, 2005
61,058
2,302
✟79,109.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well it really depends on if you are Catholic, Protestant, etc…

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Heaven



http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/SBS777/course/lesson10.html



http://www.greaterthings.com/Essays/BeyondMark/Bm2-kingdom_of_god.htm



There is no one that I am aware of in Christian history, at least no one taken seriously, who considered the Kingdom of God to be a viable political entity.

Perhaps you could produce some?
If you revisit my comments, you'll notice, hopefully, that I said nothing about the Kingdom of God. I merely said that Jesus is a King, as He said Himself

Matthew 27:11

Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

So everything you said amounts to nothing more than a non sequitur.
 
Upvote 0

MachZer0

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place
Mar 9, 2005
61,058
2,302
✟79,109.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Actually you have made a logical fallacy, equivocation. I stated that…

“Comparing Jesus and Muhammad cannot be done. Muhammad was a political and religious leader who had to deal with the exigencies of the political arena. Jesus was a spiritual leader who never held any political authority.”

Your well thought out rebuttal was…

“A King has no political authority???

Now your comment was an obvious reference to Jesus, and the theological Kingship of Jesus. Your comment, “I said nothing about the Kingdom of God” is, of course, absurd. If you say Jesus is King, Jesus must in fact have a Kingdom somewhere. Unless I am mistaken the only known Kingdom Jesus is believed to preside over is in fact the Kingdom of Heaven. I suppose there is the third, more bizarre possibility, that you happen to believe that Jesus is a King of some actual political entity. Maybe the Last King of Scotland?

So if you want to admit that your original comment was pointless and off topic, then yes, the explanation of Jesus’ kingship with references to the Kingdom of Heaven, while entirely accurate, would be off topic, but not a non sequitur (definitional differences).

If you want to assert that Jesus is a King over some current political entity, I’m sure everyone here would love to hear it. If you were trying to equivocate the positions of Jesus and Muhammad, you need to study more history and theology.
I gave it to you in His own words. And I see you have no refutation.
 
Upvote 0

MachZer0

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place
Mar 9, 2005
61,058
2,302
✟79,109.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As an aside, since there is speculation that Jesus was an Essene, I suppose that there could have been a nebulous “Kingdom” in the community sense that Jesus could have theoretically be apart of, which would be a political reality, but the community never held power, and the comparison to Muhammad would be invalid. The association to the Essenes would probably not be accepted by most mainstream Christians anyway.
The comparison between Muhammad and is indeed invalid since Muhammad is a mere mortal sinner and Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Indeed, no comparison.
 
Upvote 0

Charlie V

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2004
5,559
460
58
New Jersey
✟16,611.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Call me what you want. I still see reality for what it is.

I didn't call you anything. I addressed what you said, not what you are.

And, no sir, reality is not that all Muslims are violent. Muslims make up one-fifth of the world's population, and many of them are peaceful, good people.

The few that are violent are no more representative of all of Islam than the KKK are representative of all of Christianity.

Charlie
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Charlie V

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2004
5,559
460
58
New Jersey
✟16,611.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I have to shake my head at all the people from both sides of the argument who are saying "you can't compare them" for this reason or that.

As a lover of language and writing, I object, and my objection having nothing to do with religion or my views of Jesus or Mohommad, but having only to do with language and the nature of comparison.

Comparison is not identity. Things do not have to be identical to be compared, and indeed, unlike things are compared all the time, because you find the ways in which they are similar. Virtually everything is similar in one way or another to virtually everything else.

I can compare atoms and the solar system. Yes, they are very different, but they are similar in that they are bodies travelling around other bodies.

Of course there are similarities between Jesus and Mohommad. Both were male. Both lived a long time ago, in a particular region of the planet Earth. Both are seen as founders of a religion.

You can't say, "You can't compare those things." Virtually any two things you can think of, a creative writer can come up with a comparison. Any reader of the literary arts can find hosts of comparisons of various types -- similies, metaphors, all sorts of comparisons.

Just because there are other ways that you can contrast those two things doesn't mean comparisons can't be drawn. I could compare.. oh, I don't know.. mountains with butterflies.

"The beauty and magesty of the proud butterfly, like a beautiful mountain in the sunset."

A mark of a really, really good writer is the ability to make comparisons between things which are very, very different, but the comparison still rings true. You could compare, say, forests and shoelaces. Tulips and the rising sun. Neal Armstrong and a Monty Python movie. Any two things. Mix and match. Compare the shoelaces and the Monty Python movie. Just because two things are dissimilar doesn't mean they can't be compared.

You don't say, "Hey, wait a second. Butterflies are little insects and mountains are big peices of landscape! You can't compare those two things!" You just accept the comparison for what it is -- not a claim the two things are identical, but as a literary statement, a comparison!

Charlie
 
Upvote 0

Charlie V

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2004
5,559
460
58
New Jersey
✟16,611.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Thankfully I have left Christianity, makes me happy to see my decision validated with comments like this!

CCGirl --

If you are happy having left Christianity, then I respect that completely.

But I trust you know that there are Christians who feel quite differently than some here. There are those of us who are Christians because of Jesus' teachings about love, good Samaritanism, compassion to the poor, and kindness to others. There are even those Christians who find the statements of many other Christians to be quite contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

I don't really think he really validated your decision, or at least, that you should see it that way. Because he doesn't represent Christianity. He only represents himself.

Just as there are bad and good Muslims in the world, there are bad and good Christians in the world. While we're all free to choose our own religion, we shouldn't do it on the basis of a few "bad apples," nor consider those "bad apples" a validation of that decision.

Charlie

[Hey, I can't compare apples, a fruit, with members of religions, who are human beings. Oh, wait, you can compare any two things. I said that earlier. Sorry, I digress.]
 
Upvote 0

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
19,212
2,813
Oregon
✟723,375.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
A King has no political authority???
Just because a person is a King does not imply instant political authority.

For instance, a King of earthly kingdoms does has political authority over his kingdom. This is a realm of ideas that arises from ones busy mind. But a King of Heavenly Kingdoms rules the spiritual realm which is awakened with in ones calmed heart and soul.

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Charlie V

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2004
5,559
460
58
New Jersey
✟16,611.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
There is a limit to comparisons. You cannot compare Bill Clinton and Genghis Khan.

Sure you can. It just has to be an apt comparison, and it helps if it's well written. I could do so and it could be totally pro-Bill Clinton, say, in a dramatic narrative.

(Actually, it doesn't have to be an apt comparison, but you can always say, "that comparison wasn't very apt" if it wasn't.)

Like, let's say, hypothetically, I wrote a narrative drama (perhaps based on some true event, perhaps a story or some docu-drama type of thing, I'm making this up right now for the sake of example so just bear with me) that involved Bill Clinton dealing with some international crisis where he had political opponants who were trying to thwart his attempts to solve the crisis. "Then, he burst into the room, fearsome as Genghis Khan, and his political opponants knew they were in trouble at that moment."

Heck, I could compare him with many very different things at once in a well constructed sentence.

"Then, he burst into the room, fearsome as Genghis Khan, his eyes bursting with the power of thunderbolts, and his political opponants knew they were in trouble, but were surprised when he opened his mouth, and spoke calmly, softly, like a whispering breeze.

There, I compared him to Genghis Khan, thunderbolts and a whispering breeze, all in one sentence. Perhaps not the best written sentence on the planet, but I was in a rush, trying to give an example.

Charlie
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.