Jesus is the SON not the Father.

Pastor Carl,

(6) I was not jumping from God to Christ. In the Old Testament, anytime the term, "the angel of the Lord" appears, it is always a referrence to the Messiah's preincarnate existance. When Samsons parents saw Christ appear to them and tell them about Samson, they declared, "For we have seen God, and have lived." They recognized that Christ was God even in the Old Testament. Jacob wrestled with Christ, Abraham fed Christ on His way to Sodom and Gommorah, Moses met Jesus in the burning bush. It was Jesus who was the "cloud by day" and the "pillar if fire" by night that guided Israel for 40 years in the wilderness.

Click to expand...

Interesting. What scripture are you using that says "the angel of the Lord" is always a reference to the "Messiah's preincarnate existance". As you probably already know, angel means messenger.

(7) You miss the whole point of Messiah. If the Messiah were only a man, he could not be the Messiah. Jesus had no earthly father when it came to His conception. As the angel, Gabriel told Mary, "And you shall conceive after the Holy Spirit has come upon you." Yes, I believe in the Virgin Birth also. Scripture tells us that Joseph had no sexual relations with Mary until after the birth of Jesus.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you misunderstand what "Messiah" means.

The term "moshiach" (or messiah) literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept.
from www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Click to expand...

Nothing is mentioned about the messiah being more than a man. He will be descended from David (Jeremiah 23:5), well-versed in Jewish law and observant of it's commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5), and a judge who will make righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).

The thing to remember about the Messiah, is that he would be annointed by God.

>>No, you can't change them.. but you can set right the things oyu have done wrong, in the eyes of God.

And how might one do that? Simply give Jesus lip service, or by actually applying his teachings to our lives and striving to love our enemy and be perfect?

M>If we can however learn to love and forgive one another, we can rise above it.

>>We can rise above eachother, but not above God.

That's not quite what I meant. I meant we as a "WHOLE" can rise above our own petyness and selfishness. I do not believe we "rise above" one another, let alone God. I mean we rise above these selfish behaviors within ourselves, and we find inner peace.

M>If God cannot simply forgive, like all of us, what hope is there for anyone?

>>The hope is that Jesus paid for and atoned for our sins.

When you use the word "paid", you make it sound like God is violent, and requires vengence in order to forgive. Is that really what you mean?

M>Are you really asking me what good is finding eternal peace?

>>Yes... what good is it? what can it do for you, or though you? Eternal peace can't save you.. so oyu have it.. good for you.. it isn't a bad thing, but it isn't good enough to save you.

Only God can really "save" us, but inner peace is a crucial part of that equation. If I have inner peace, then even things like the Trade Center bombing can be dealt with rationally and logically.

M>If I gain the world, but lose my own inner peace, what have I gained?

>>The world I guess.

Yet this is only transitory at best. Every physical form eventually returns to dust. Jesus suggested we think eternally.

>>First, since you didn't start with inner peace.. if you never have it, you don't lose it... second, you are mis-quoting a scripture there...

If I strive however for inner peace, and I find it, I have truely gained something useful, and eternal. In and of itself, inner peace does not define "salvation", but it's a crucial element in finding "salvation" itself.

M>You seem to be suggesting that God simply cannot forgive sin like any mere human.

>>That's right... humans cannot forgive sin... we can forgive the intent behind it, but once the sin is done, i tis a part of us. We can't forgiv ethat person of their sin. They are still going to be held aco****able for that sin unto God, when He judges you.

I think perhaps I was too cryptic in my comment. Why do you believe that God cannot forgive sin like us mere mortals? Why must there be vengence involved?

M>If we have learned from our mistakes, and changed internally as a result, what purpose is there for tormenting someone eternally anyway?

>>You must not only learn from your mistakes, but you must have a faith in God, and a will not to want to repeat it again.

Agreed. This desire to not want to repeat the mistake is a fundamental requirement in feeling good with God again, and feeling comfortable in the flow of the Holy Spirit within.

>>There ar emany who got the first part down, but their will is not right with GOd, also, they do not accept Him as a savior and redeemer.

Ok, but suppose they eventually do that part. What then is the point of continuing to eternally torment them? I'm curious how you and Pastor Carl explain this.

>>They will face God with this sin still on their heart, and GOd will reject them becasue of it.

Fine. But what happens when their hearts do change? Does God have no mercy upon them even still? What is the point of that? Where is the compassion and mercy in that?

M>This certainly isn't the kind of God Jesus talked about. He said we should forgive one another as we would have God forgive us.

>>Tresspasses Michael. We can only forgive the act of sin, and only GOd can forgive the sin itself.

Sure, and God forgives our sin, as we forgive one another according to Jesus. Jesus repeatedly states that we will be judged by how we have judged others. I would therefor prefer to judge everyone "compassionately". Jesus' only commandment was that we love one another as he has loved us. If he loved us enough to sacrifice his mortal flesh for our salvation, then surely I can work out any pety differences I might have with someone else.

M>Why would you believe God cannot forgive?

>>Not saying God can't forgive.. I am sugesting that you do no tunderstand what forgiveness of sin is.

I think I do. I'm not sure you do though. Forgiveness is about compassion and mercy. It is a selfless act of grace, where none is deserved. That's what forgiveness is all about. Jesus exemplified God's unconditional love while hanging on the cross and forgiving those putting him to death. Their hearts had not even repented. That is truely unconditional love, and unconditional forgiveness. If that is the kind of love and compassion I am commanded to love all my enemies with, what sin cannot be forgiven?

Simply give Jesus lip service, or by actually applying his teachings to our lives and striving to love our enemy and be perfect?

Click to expand...

NIether.. thouh both are good. BUt you must have faith in the sacrifie that He was for us. Applying HIs teachings to your life will do anyone good here on earth, but that will not save oyu, nor redeem your sins.

That's not quite what I meant. I meant we as a "WHOLE" can rise above our own petyness and selfishness. I do not believe we "rise above" one another, let alone God. I mean we rise above these selfish behaviors within ourselves, and we find inner peace.

Click to expand...

Even if we were able to rise above such things, we would still be human.. still be sin ful by nature. And God will still see that. Finding inner peace isn't good enough either.

When you use the word "paid", you make it sound like God is violent, and requires vengence in order to forgive. Is that really what you mean?

Click to expand...

What I mean is that a sinful nature, which we all have, requires a price in order to have it... that price is death. Without God, our death is that price.. but with GOd, it was Jesus' dath that was that price. His death was not needed to cover His sins, bewcasue He did not have any, so His death then could cover our sins. He paid the wage that sins demands of us, however, part of that payment for our sins requires us to have faith that He did so, and why.

Only God can really "save" us, but inner peace is a crucial part of that equation. If I have inner peace, then even things like the Trade Center bombing can be dealt with rationally and logically.

Click to expand...

So long as we agree that inner peace does not save you...

I think perhaps I was too cryptic in my comment. Why do you believe that God cannot forgive sin like us mere mortals? Why must there be vengence involved?

Click to expand...

And you missed what I said. God can forgive sins. Man cannot... only the action of the sin. Only God has the power to forgive sin. And, He will only forgive sin if we acknowledge that He is the one that can do it. And the way that He does it is thorugh His grace... but in order to recieve that grace, we must have faith in Him that He will save us.

Ok, but suppose they eventually do that part. What then is the point of continuing to eternally torment them? I'm curious how you and Pastor Carl explain this.

Click to expand...

For us on earth.. Faith is key. Faith is Fellowship with God, unto salvation. Once a person is judged not to have had faith in God, while on earth, that soul will be sent to Hell. At that moment the person will know the truth, however, faith a that point is no longer required. Faith unto salvation is pointless at this point, but that is what God wants from us. He wants us to trust in HIm. He wants us to trust Him that having faith in Him, now, will save us from that eternal punishment. After the fact, there is no room for trust, if God decides not to go through with that judgement. If the judgement doe snot exist, ot the judgement is not eternal, then having faith is irrelevant. A person just lives their life they way thay wnat to, with no regard to right or wrong. Dies, gets sent to hell, finds out God was right, then accepts it. No punishment.. no aco****ability.

You say.. suppose they eventually do that part... they have to doit, before they stand before God. They have to do it, before judgment is carried out. There is no parole, or lessened sentence with God. Judgement is final, and permenent. And, the nature of s soul after judgement is permanent. In the end, everyone will know who God is, and know wether they were right or wrong... but by then it will be too late to change their fate.

But what happens when their hearts do change?

Click to expand...

That can only happen here on earth, while they have no reason to chage their hearts, but trust in God.

Does God have no mercy upon them even still?

Click to expand...

And God will not have mercy on those ho are sent into eternal Judgement. By the time they are judged.. there is no mercy left for them.. only Judgement for thier sin. Gods mercy is here and now, not when ever you want it.

What is the point of that?

Click to expand...

The point is that we will strive to have a relationship and faith in GOd based upon love and trust...

If he loved us enough to sacrifice his mortal flesh for our salvation

Click to expand...

Jesus did more than that when He died. He did somehting none of us could ever do.. sacrifce HIs perfect nature. That is the real key. Not that He physically died, but that He spiritually died. That is why it is oimportant for Jesus to be sinless... so that He could sacrifice what we never had to sacrifice... LIfe.. spiritual Life. And by doing so, and by then defeating death, and gaining back that Spiritual Life, He opened a door for us to enter though Him that we too could have out spiritual death taken away, and gain spiritual Life.

Forgiveness is about compassion and mercy. It is a selfless act of grace, where none is deserved. That's what forgiveness is all about

Click to expand...

To God it is much more than that. It is changing the Spiritual nature of a person.. from death to life. Clensing thei souls form sin that has been apart of them since birth. Only God ca do that. And GOd has to do that, in order for you to exist in HIs presence in HEaven. And if you don't have faith that He will.. then He will not, becasue He gave us the choice to accept of reject that gift of salvation. And, to those that reject it, they get cast out of His presecne for eternity, becasue of the sinful nature that will forever be apart of them.

"And how might one do that? Simply give Jesus lip service, or by actually applying his teachings to our lives and striving to love our enemy and be perfect?"

Micheal I dont' think you understand what true faith is..that's all it takes. THAT'S ALL. No lip service, no works..just faith.

"When you use the word "paid", you make it sound like God is violent, and requires vengence in order to forgive. Is that really what you mean?"

Break a rule and God is holy so he has to incure a penity..he paid it through Christ's blood but if you reject that you can pay it youself if you want.

"Only God can really "save" us, but inner peace is a crucial part of that equation. "

:lol: there are on buts micheal..Only God can save us period. Jesus did on the cross if you accept it.

"If I strive however for inner peace, and I find it, I have truely gained something useful, and eternal. In and of itself, inner peace does not define "salvation", but it's a crucial element in finding "salvation" itself."

This is why I say you are a up-to-date gnostic..because that's gnostic though..find the divine in yourself and you find your salvation. ie..humanism ..and that's not biblical.

"I would therefor prefer to judge everyone "compassionately". "

Using this then have you loved perfectly? No. then you can't go to heaven. same story If you're not cleansed by christ's blood you're not good enough.

"If that is the kind of love and compassion I am commanded to love all my enemies with, what sin cannot be forgiven? "

There is one according to the bible..how do you mesh that with your idea that God will forgive everything..hmm? You can't, because God is Holy and not just love.

>>NIether.. thouh both are good. BUt you must have faith in the sacrifie that He was for us. Applying HIs teachings to your life will do anyone good here on earth, but that will not save oyu, nor redeem your sins.

The point I was trying to make is that couch potato christians don't cut it. The phrase "Jesus is my savior" is not a ticket into heaven. Hilter called himself a "christian" at times too.

M>That's not quite what I meant. I meant we as a "WHOLE" can rise above our own petyness and selfishness. I do not believe we "rise above" one another, let alone God. I mean we rise above these selfish behaviors within ourselves, and we find inner peace.

>>Even if we were able to rise above such things, we would still be human..

We are only HUMAN as long as our SPIRIT inhabits this form. After that, we are simply children of God in SPIRIT.

>> still be sin ful by nature. And God will still see that. Finding inner peace isn't good enough either.

I agree. I've said that before. It is however an important step along the way.

M>When you use the word "paid", you make it sound like God is violent, and requires vengence in order to forgive. Is that really what you mean?

>>What I mean is that a sinful nature, which we all have, requires a price in order to have it... that price is death.

We need to talk about the nature of God here a while. Is God loving and forgiving? Is God merciful and kind? Can God forgive as we humans forgive, or must God be violent in order to forgive. I'm asking you ultimately about the nature of God. Do you believe God requires violence in order to forgive?

>>Without God, our death is that price..

Without God, there would be no "life" at all.

>>but with GOd, it was Jesus' dath that was that price. His death was not needed to cover His sins, bewcasue He did not have any, so His death then could cover our sins.

The problem I have with this belief system, is that your faith is predicated on some sort of belief that God is violent and must be appeased one way or the other. Either you die, or Jesus dies.

You are also placing your faith on the idea that Jesus was not a man as he said he was, that he never made mistakes, and never learned from his mistakes. I just don't think that's the case here. I think Jesus was quite human. I can accept a "flawed" and "human" Messiah. Your faith leaves no room for that possibility. If it turns out Jesus learned as we learn, would this destroy your faith?

>>He paid the wage that sins demands of us, however, part of that payment for our sins requires us to have faith that He did so, and why.

Why did anything have to be paid to begin with? Why can't God forgive like the rest of us? I'm ultimately asking you about the nature of God. If we mere humans can forgive without violence, why can't God? Isn't God greater than us?

M>Only God can really "save" us, but inner peace is a crucial part of that equation. If I have inner peace, then even things like the Trade Center bombing can be dealt with rationally and logically.

>>So long as we agree that inner peace does not save you...

Yet without inner peace, real salvation is not possible.

M>I think perhaps I was too cryptic in my comment. Why do you believe that God cannot forgive sin like us mere mortals? Why must there be vengence involved?

>>And you missed what I said. God can forgive sins. Man cannot... only the action of the sin. Only God has the power to forgive sin.

You mean only God can forgive us internally. I can't forgive *FOR* God, God must forgive for himself. That I understand.

What I'm asking you though, is why God can't simply forgive sin like the rest of us. We forgive each other all the time without violence and destruction. Can't God do something as simple as this simple act of kindness?

>>And, He will only forgive sin if we acknowledge that He is the one that can do it.

I think we are all aware that only God can forgive us for himself. I can't *MAKE* God forgive me, but I know he will, if I change my behaviors and ask for forgiveness. Jesus promised us that God would forgive us as we have forgiven others.

>>And the way that He does it is thorugh His grace.

Yes, but grace is not predicated upon violence. It comes from within. It is an act of kindness, of love.

>>.. but in order to recieve that grace, we must have faith in Him that He will save us.

And I do. I believe he will save us all. Some will fight it, some will take longer than others to find this salvation, but I do not believe any force is powerful enough to stand between God and what he wants. I believe God loves all his children, and loves us even when we make mistakes.

M>Ok, but suppose they eventually do that part. What then is the point of continuing to eternally torment them? I'm curious how you and Pastor Carl explain this.

>>For us on earth.. Faith is key. Faith is Fellowship with God, unto salvation. Once a person is judged not to have had faith in God, while on earth, that soul will be sent to Hell. At that moment the person will know the truth, however, faith a that point is no longer required. Faith unto salvation is pointless at this point, but that is what God wants from us.

Assuming that this was the case for a moment, you still have not answered my question. What point would there be in perpetual torment at this point? Why keep them around at all?

>>He wants us to trust in HIm.

I *TRUST* that God loves us *ALL* evidently somewhat more than you do. I trust God would never be cruel or inhumane. The notion of perpetual torment without hope is cruel and inhumane.

If someone, who previously had no "faith" as you seem to think is required, suddenly understood their sin, and had faith that a loving Jesus would ultimately save them, would their faith be misguided?

>>He wants us to trust Him that having faith in Him, now, will save us from that eternal punishment.

What motivates God to perpetually torment anyone, even his enemies? Didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies, and turn the other cheek?

>>No punishment.. no aco****ability.

You have punishment without accountability going on now. You would dish out infinite punishment for finite sin, without regard to the feelings of the tormented. Is this justice or simply sadism? How is that Justice? How is that merciful? How is that kind and loving?

>>You say.. suppose they eventually do that part... they have to doit, before they stand before God. They have to do it, before judgment is carried out. There is no parole, or lessened sentence with God. Judgement is final, and permenent. And, the nature of s soul after judgement is permanent.

Why in the face of an eternity of change would any judgement from God be "eternal"? When a lost soul repents, what purpose could there be in continueing to torment them? If I did that to you as your jailer, would I be worthy of the kingdom myself?

>>In the end, everyone will know who God is, and know wether they were right or wrong... but by then it will be too late to change their fate.

It will be too late to change the past, but we always choose what we do here and now. It is never too late to change, NOW. When someone does change NOW, why continue to torment them for all time? What purpose can it serve to do this?

M>But what happens when their hearts do change?

>>That can only happen here on earth,

Why? Why wouldn't the finally comprehend their mistake after death? Why can't souls change their heart after death?

>>while they have no reason to chage their hearts, but trust in God.

You seem to be missing my point. I trust that God has a plan to redeem us all. I trust he's powerful enough to do that. I trust it will take a long time for some, but in the end, all beings will know the love of God. I trust God.

I do not understand why God or anyone else would want to torment souls endlessly. I do understand why God would want justice. These two ideas (eternal torment & justice) are mutually exclusive. You cannot eternally torment someone for a trillion years for the sins of a single lifetime and call that "justice".

M oes God have no mercy upon them even still?

>>And God will not have mercy on those ho are sent into eternal Judgement. By the time they are judged.. there is no mercy left for them.. only Judgement for thier sin.

And by who's authority do you make such a claim? How do you know God's mercy and love is "limited"?

>>Gods mercy is here and now, not when ever you want it.

If you think about that some, you just contradicted yourself.

M>What is the point of that?

>>The point is that we will strive to have a relationship and faith in GOd based upon love and trust...

I meant what's the point of endless torment when a soul has learned their lesson already. What point is there in tormenting them further?

M>If he loved us enough to sacrifice his mortal flesh for our salvation

>>Jesus did more than that when He died. He did somehting none of us could ever do.. sacrifce HIs perfect nature. That is the real key. Not that He physically died, but that He spiritually died.

I don't understand what you mean by he "spiritually died". I can comprehend what you mean by him "spritual sufferring" while here on earth, but I do not believe Jesus ever "spiritually died".

>> That is why it is oimportant for Jesus to be sinless... so that He could sacrifice what we never had to sacrifice...

It seems to me that it's important for your believe system for this to be the case, but that isn't a requirement of mine. I don't expect Jesus to pay for my sins. He's done plenty already, and left me a legacy of love and a path to salvation. I know God loved him deeply for his actions and didn't turn around and punish him further after his physical death. What kind of nature do you think God has anyway?

>>LIfe.. spiritual Life.

Spiritual "life" is based upon taping into the flow of the Holy Spirit. Jesus explained how to do that. In that way, his teachings point the way to spiritual life.

>>And by doing so, and by then defeating death, and gaining back that Spiritual Life,

I guess I just don't comprehend what you are saying. First you say he was spiritual dead, and then he became spiritually back to life. This from a man you say was also God, unified with God. How and why does God kill himself "spiritually"? For what purpose? This really doesn't make any sense to me I'm afraid.

>>He opened a door for us to enter though Him that we too could have out spiritual death taken away, and gain spiritual Life.

I fully agree with that statement, but evidently not the way you mean it. He did open the door by handing us a living example of selfless service to God, and unconditional love and forgiveness. By applying these principals, we find eternal life.

M>Forgiveness is about compassion and mercy. It is a selfless act of grace, where none is deserved. That's what forgiveness is all about.

>>To God it is much more than that. It is changing the Spiritual nature of a person.. from death to life.

Specifically how does that happen? How does internal change occur?

>>Clensing thei souls form sin that has been apart of them since birth. Only God ca do that. And GOd has to do that, in order for you to exist in HIs presence in HEaven. And if you don't have faith that He will.. then He will not,

But I do have faith he will, I just don't have "faith" in your particular dogma package as a whole. Does that disqualify me?

>>becasue He gave us the choice to accept of reject that gift of salvation.

From your perspective though, it's a little like "do it or else" don't you think? Some choice.

>>And, to those that reject it, they get cast out of His presecne for eternity, becasue of the sinful nature that will forever be apart of them.

I still am not sure you grasp the concept of eternity yet. It's a really long time. A single human lifetime is so very short compared to eternity. It's shorter for instance than a blink of an eye compared to a whole human lifetime. There is no adequate way to express eternity really.

In the whole of this sea of eternity, you are not allowing for a single soul to find salvation after death. This is both illogical and impossible. If there is one thing you can tell about God from the world around us, it's that God values diversity and freedom. The ideas of eternal torment for bad dogma just don't add up.

Rev., Ch. 20

FYI, I'll be out of town till Wednesday afternoon. I'll continue the discussion with you at that point. Enjoy!

but that is not our place to judge their hearts

"The phrase "Jesus is my savior" is not a ticket into heaven. Hilter called himself a "christian" at times too."

That is why James wrote the book, he was saying if you say you're a christian, act like it

"Is God loving and forgiving? Is God merciful and kind? "

Yes and yes, but he is also just, and more importanly over all these things he is HOLY.

"Do you believe God requires violence in order to forgive?"

maybe, the law was laid down, the wages..death. That's the price, eternal seperation

"God can't simply forgive sin like the rest of us. We forgive each other all the time without violence and destruction. Can't God do something as simple as this simple act of kindness?"

He can and does. Forgiveness is given if you ask for it, but they you have to pay the result of your sin which is death. I believe we went over this. He can't erase the results because that would be unjust and he can't not be holy so to rectify this he took the results on himself (christ's blood) and if you don't accept this then you are saying, hey, I want that result of death and God won't force you to accept his mercy.

"Either you die, or Jesus dies."

Yup, because that is the result of sin, death. We choose to sin so we either die or Christ dies for us.

"You are also placing your faith on the idea that Jesus was not a man as he said he was, that he never made mistakes, and never learned from his mistakes. "

first, Jesus claimed to be God, even the pharisees understood that, and second there are a few places where Jesus himself tells us he was sinless.

"I can accept a "flawed" and "human" Messiah. "

The lamb that takes away the sin of the world...are you familar with the sacrifice system? The lamb had to be UNFLAWED.

"Why can't God forgive like the rest of us? "

Because he is holy, and we don't pardon sin because sin is ultimately against God, not us.

"I believe God loves all his children, and loves us even when we make mistakes."

Then your god is not holy.

"Didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies, and turn the other cheek?"

Yes, but the bible also teaches of disipline and that if you sin you have to pay the cost of it.

"You would dish out infinite punishment for finite sin, "

yes, because of that finite sin you are infinitly flawed which deserves infinity seperation from God.

"Why wouldn't the finally comprehend their mistake after death? "

Because if you see God and don't accept him you never will, the only unforgiveable sin is what? Rejection of the HS So you are infintly flawed and go to hell.

"How and why does God kill himself "spiritually"? For what purpose? This really doesn't make any sense to me I'm afraid."

So? none of us are God so we might not understand everthing

"By applying these principals, we find eternal life."

Nope, because you can't work you way into heaven. Any sin makes you infinitly flawed.

"From your perspective though, it's a little like "do it or else" don't you think? Some choice."

Would you rather that God let us pay for our own sins? :lol: off to hell we go....cause we deserve it...

"In the whole of this sea of eternity, you are not allowing for a single soul to find salvation after death. This is both illogical and impossible. "

No its not. 1. they have seen God and reject him so what makes you think they will change their mind, I mean, they have SEEN God in all his glory and still reject him, there is nothing more God can do besides force them, and he doesn't do that. 2. Blasphamy of the HS is unforgiveable so you have sin in your life when you are judges, hence you are judged to be infinitly flawed and must be seperated from God.

Let me answer a few of your statements. For brevety's sake, I will not include your statements. I am sure that others have seen them and since you wrote them, I assume you also know the same. I will not have time to answer them all tonight, however.

(1) Concerning your use of Isaiah 66:3, you have conveniently left off the the first part of verse 3 which saysm "But those who choose their own ways, delighting in their sins, are cursed. Their offerings will not be accepted. When such people sacrifice an ox.................." God is not condemning the sacrifices, but those who continue in their sin and truly do not repent when they make those sacrifices.

(2) I find it interesting that you conveniently use Scripture to try to prove your point, but then do not accept that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God.

(3) Jesus spoke of hell more than all the other writers of the Bible. He gives a vivid description in Luke when he refers to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. And before you go stating that this is a parable, I assure it is not. It is the only time Jesus refers to a particular individual by name - Lazarus. He said, "There one WAS a man named Lazarus." His description of the waiting place of the dead was a fact.

(4) God does not want to torture anyone. Hell was created, Scripture tells us, for the devil and his angels. God sends no one there. Humans put themselves there. The choice is made by those who have decided to ignore the gift of salvation offered by God. Romans 1:18-23 also states about those who may have never heard of Jesus. The crux of that passage is that the revelation of God is seen in all of creation. Most of human kind chose to worship the creation rather than a creator. If someone, and there are stories told by missionaries in some remote areas, worshiped the Creator and never heard of Jesus, then they will be judged accordingly.

(5) God does not judge as we do. He does not think and act like we do. He plainly tells us that "My ways are not your ways and your thoughts are not my thoughts." His ways are hirgher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

(6) Jesus was fully human, but He was also fully God. Hebrews tells us that he felt as we feel, he experienced what we experienced, he was tempted in every way we were, "but He did not sin." Just as the in the Old Testament, God demanded the best of the flock, herd, or grain, He gave us the perfect Lamb of God. According to the Word of God, Jesus had to have no sin or His sacrifice would not be sufficient, You see, God does not merely forgive sin or sins as we forgive. We say, "I forgive but I will not forget." Scripture tells us that "as far as the east is from the west have I removed your transgressions." "I will remember your sins no more." God does not just forgive, He removes them and they are forever gone from His memory. All records of the sin have been wiped out. Deleted. As if the sin never existed.

Mind Boggling isn't it, Ed?

My only guess is that for some it isn't so mind boggling...

>>(1) Concerning your use of Isaiah 66:3, you have conveniently left off the the first part of verse 3 which saysm "But those who choose their own ways, delighting in their sins, are cursed. Their offerings will not be accepted.

I did not leave that out. I'm simply noting what's important here. It's the *INNER* experience that counts here. Isaiah compares the act of *EXTERNAL* killing of innocent animals to be like killing people. What is God going to do with animal blood anyway?

>>When such people sacrifice an ox.................." God is not condemning the sacrifices, but those who continue in their sin and truly do not repent when they make those sacrifices.

God is seeking *INNER* sacrifice. Psalms 51 in fact, says much the same thing that Isaiah says about killing animals. It serves no useful purpose to God.

>>(2) I find it interesting that you conveniently use Scripture to try to prove your point, but then do not accept that the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God.

I accept that "some" of it is. I accept pretty much all of what is attributed to Jesus, but the rest is rather hit and miss from my perspective, and quite contradictory as well. Isaiah compares animal killing to killing people. Other verses of the bible clearly support the idea. It's not my fault they are conflicting ideas.

>>(3) Jesus spoke of hell more than all the other writers of the Bible.

No, actually, he spoke of "gehenna" and "sheol" more than any other writers. This is not at all unusual since he was preocupied with eternity rather than the physical level.

>>He gives a vivid description in Luke when he refers to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. And before you go stating that this is a parable, I assure it is not.

It most certainly *IS* parable. Jesus was talking about *ETERNAL* consequenses for sin, but your desire to interpret this parable literally is the problem here. Parables have inner meaning beyond the outer. You are only looking at the outer.

Jesus also said we should love our enemies and be perfect. Eternal shame for our sins is our own fault, not God's. The notion that there will be eternal "justice" is what Jesus was conveying. The idea of eternal torment for finite sin though was not a teaching within Judaism. They believe in a type of divine KARMA of sorts, but perpetual torment of sin was not what "gehenna" or "sheol" meant in Judaism.

Don't you find it odd that two words, gehenna and sheol would both be translated to the same word in english? They certainly didn't refer to the same ideas. Sheol simply meant grave. Gehenna refered to a notion of soul clensing before moving on to "lower" heaven. Neither of these words conveyed the notion of perpetual torment. Origen describes quite accurately the notions of "fire" as it pertains to "gehenna" in ancient Jewish theology. He describes it as a clensing force which ultimately "pours forth the cleansed sons of Judah".

Your statement that Jesus refers to "hell" is simply innacurate. This idea of perpetual torment came from greek pagen afterlife concepts having nothing to do with what Jesus was refering to.

>>It is the only time Jesus refers to a particular individual by name - Lazarus. He said, "There one WAS a man named Lazarus." His description of the waiting place of the dead was a fact.

All Jews accept(ed) the idea of "gehenna". If you study the meaning of the word to it's culture, it was an afterlife belief having nothing to do with perpetual torment.

>>(4) God does not want to torture anyone.

Then why would he?

>>Hell was created,

By whom? Who keeps everyone in line, and in hell anyway? Are they're armed angels who keep them in perpetual torment? Who hears their screams and pleas for mercy and ignores them?

>>Scripture tells us, for the devil and his angels.

And what purpose does this serve? Is violence the way God deals with violence? How does this teach them anything they don't already know?

>>God sends no one there. Humans put themselves there.

Why would anyone stay there?

>>The choice is made by those who have decided to ignore the gift of salvation offered by God. Romans 1:18-23 also states about those who may have never heard of Jesus. The crux of that passage is that the revelation of God is seen in all of creation. Most of human kind chose to worship the creation rather than a creator. If someone, and there are stories told by missionaries in some remote areas, worshiped the Creator and never heard of Jesus, then they will be judged accordingly.

Ok, so after we separate the goats and the sheep, you have God tormenting the goats for the whole of eternity. Why? What purpose does it serve? Why would such and act, void of compassion and mercy, be pleasing unto God?

>>(5) God does not judge as we do. He does not think and act like we do. He plainly tells us that "My ways are not your ways and your thoughts are not my thoughts." His ways are hirgher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

And if we mere mortals can show more compassion and mercy on each other, then why would God do such a thing? Didn't Jesus tell us to love each other, even as he has loved us? Didn't he forgive those who were torturing him to death? Didn't Jesus tell us to love even our enemy, and turn the other cheek?

These ideas of unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness, are surely *NOT* the ways of man. They are however the teachings Jesus left us with. To then turn around and suggest Jesus torments his enemies eternally, and without compassion or mercy is simply illogical. When you study the history of pagen greek afterlife beliefs replacing the real meaning of the term "gehenna", you can clearly see where the problem is, and it's not with the teachings of Jesus himself.

>>(6) Jesus was fully human, but He was also fully God.

What does that mean to you? That's like a slogan I hear all the time, yet almost all "christians" deny his humanity. They insist he never sinned, or learned from making mistakes, but this is the very nature of being "human".

>>Hebrews tells us that he felt as we feel, he experienced what we experienced, he was tempted in every way we were, "but He did not sin."

And in essense, this does simply deny his humanity after all. Since he could not have sinned in your eyes, he could not have been fully human in mine. Human beings learn by making mistakes, and processing these mistakes internally. This is what being human is all about. To then say Jesus never sinned is to simply deny his "humanity" entirely.

>> Just as the in the Old Testament, God demanded the best of the flock, herd, or grain, He gave us the perfect Lamb of God. According to the Word of God, Jesus had to have no sin or His sacrifice would not be sufficient, You see, God does not merely forgive sin or sins as we forgive. We say, "I forgive but I will not forget."

So God holds grudges in your opinion, until they are somehow "paid" for?

>>Scripture tells us that "as far as the east is from the west have I removed your transgressions." "I will remember your sins no more." God does not just forgive, He removes them and they are forever gone from His memory. All records of the sin have been wiped out. Deleted. As if the sin never existed.

Your ideas about God confuse me frankly. On one hand (like above) you insist upon a loving, compassionate father type figure.

On the other hand, you also seem to believe that God mercilessly torments souls for the whole of time, because of sin they might have done a billions years ago. What kind of mercy and compassion and example of love is that?

"What is God going to do with animal blood anyway?"

Hmm...outward sign of inner faith..now where have a I heard that before? hmm...:lol:

"It serves no useful purpose to God."

Read about OT law Micheal. It does serve a purpose, the wages of sin is death.

"I accept pretty much all of what is attributed to Jesus, but the rest is rather hit and miss from my perspective, "

IN other words you accept what sounds good to you huh?


"This is not at all unusual since he was preocupied with eternity rather than the physical level."

hmm...check out the paraibles descriptions of "hell" Micheal, it doesn't mesh with yours.


"The idea of eternal torment for finite sin though was not a teaching within Judaism"

Bottome line: You have sin, you don't go to heaven. That's biblical. If you say otherwise then you don't believe in the bible, you don't so you're view is okay, but its not biblical and not of God.


"This idea of perpetual torment came from greek pagen afterlife concepts having nothing to do with what Jesus was refering to. "

Umm, no it didn't Even the early church fathers knew about this. Check out why the early practice of baptism wasn't done until you where about to die.


"And what purpose does this serve? Is violence the way God deals with violence? How does this teach them anything they don't already know?"

They do know, that's the point, You know the difference between right and wrong and if you choose wrong, you go to hell. If you are perfect you go to heaven. Are you perfect? No? Then you have to go by Jesus' blood.


">>(4) God does not want to torture anyone.

Then why would he?"

Because he is HOLY.


"That's like a slogan I hear all the time, yet almost all "christians" deny his humanity. They insist he never sinned, or learned from making mistakes, but this is the very nature of being "human"."

No, making mistakes isn't being human, its a limit of being human. That doesn't define what it is to be human. To have a spirit and not be God defines being human. Jesus didn't ever sin, that's in scripture.


"So God holds grudges in your opinion, until they are somehow "paid" for?"

I believe you called it divine justice You're not perfect, you don't get into heaven.

"To then turn around and suggest Jesus torments his enemies eternally, and without compassion or mercy is simply illogical. "

No its not, you have to accept forgiveness to be forgiven.

PC>(4) God does not want to torture anyone.

M>Then why would he?"

>>Because he is HOLY.

You know Louis, it's getting harder and harder to find any content in your posts worth responding to these days. You're whole life seems to be based upon "slogans" rather than any deep thought.

How do you figure eternally and mercilessly punishing souls for the whole of eternity, over the sins of a single lifetime, is somehow "Holy"? How do you figure that utter lack of compassion and mercy is "Holy" anyway?

God does not lack compasion of mercy.. that is evident in His plan for Salvation. BU tit is up ot man to choose Salvation over eternal punishemnt for that one and only single life on earth.

>>God does not lack compasion of mercy.. that is evident in His plan for Salvation.

His "plan" according to you, involves eternal torment. How is eternal torment merciful?

>>BU tit is up ot man to choose Salvation over eternal punishemnt for that one and only single life on earth.

So they choose poorly during their 70 years on earth. You now seem to think God is going to torment them for this for the next hundred trillion years. How do any of you figure this is merciful or kind? How is that "loving your enemy" as Jesus said we should do?

His "plan" according to you, involves eternal torment. How is eternal torment merciful?

Click to expand...

I did not say the torment was merciful.. I said He has mercy. That mercy lies in HIs grace to forgive us. We do not have to be tortured eernally becasue God gave us a choice not to be tortured eternally by his Grace. That is His mercy.

So they choose poorly during their 70 years on earth.

Click to expand...

Yes. The one choice that mattered above all others.

You now seem to think God is going to torment them for this for the next hundred trillion years.

Click to expand...

DO not infer that I change my mind here as an attempt to discredit me, Michael. I do not "noe seem to think", I have always thought it to be this way.

How do any of you figure this is merciful or kind?

Click to expand...

The etenal torture is not merciful.. it is just. Being spared from the Judgement by accepting His plan of salvation is merciful.

How is that "loving your enemy" as Jesus said we should do?

Click to expand...

God right now loves us. God right now has presented man with a choice. That is loving. Sparing any of us is loving. Giving any of us a chance to not be judgeed for what we should be judged for, and not recieving the punishment we should recieve in loving.

>>I did not say the torment was merciful.. I said He has mercy. That mercy lies in HIs grace to forgive us. We do not have to be tortured eernally becasue God gave us a choice not to be tortured eternally by his Grace. That is His mercy.

It's not mercy however to suggest that God torments souls for the whole of time. Where is the mercy in that?

M>So they choose poorly during their 70 years on earth.

>>Yes. The one choice that mattered above all others.

One choice affects the whole of time? How is this even remotely logical or possible? Beings change with time. You are suggesting that once you die, that God's mercy ends for the whole of time. How can you even suggest that?

M>You now seem to think God is going to torment them for this for the next hundred trillion years.

> O not infer that I change my mind here as an attempt to discredit me, Michael. I do not "noe seem to think", I have always thought it to be this way.

So explain to me again how eternal torment without even the hope of redemption is somehow merciful?

M>How do any of you figure this is merciful or kind?

>>The etenal torture is not merciful.. it is just.

How is it justice to torment someone for trillion of years for the sins of say 40? How is that justice?

>>Being spared from the Judgement by accepting His plan of salvation is merciful.

This reminds me of the quote Archon had in his signature about a protection racket kind of mentality. "Either you believe like we tell you or burn in hell for eternity."

M>How is that "loving your enemy" as Jesus said we should do?

>>God right now loves us. God right now has presented man with a choice. That is loving. Sparing any of us is loving.

Ok, but you are suggesting that God *STOPS* loving *SOME* of his children, and not only abandons them, but eternally torments them no less! How is that merciful or just?

>>Giving any of us a chance to not be judgeed for what we should be judged for, and not recieving the punishment we should recieve in loving.

Even still ZC, you are trying to peddle the notion that God turn maniacal at someone's death and decides to torment them for the whole of time for bad dogma. How can this possibly be considered "justice", or "merciful"?