Specific Question on Evolution...

npetreley · Jul 29, 2002

Originally posted by seebs
If Adam named all the animals, why are there so many animals in the world for which there was no name in any of the early languages?

There are many explanations for that, and more than one could be true simultaneously. For example, Adam could have said "that's a mosquito," and that would be good enough for him. But the biological species concept forces people who adhere to it to create a name for every SPECIES of mosquito. There's nothing wrong with classifying creatures that way, but if that's what you want to do, you need more names.

Second, where does the Bible say that Adam wrote down every name and published it for future reference?

sbbqb7n16 · Jul 29, 2002

Originally posted by Morat
Do you have a vested interest in God being blunt, always literal, and incapable of any sort of subtlety or elegance?

Ever heard of parables? And no I don't, I just think that if He was trying to tell us how He created us, He would just tell us. You wouldn't go into parables and  word puzzles to explain to your best friend what you did today would you? That's stupid! Have you ever thought that maybe just maybe God wanted to tell you how He created you? And He didn't want you to burst your little (compared to God) brain thinking about it? So He thought He'd just tell you.... and you were like "NAH!! That's too easy..." Maybe God's just that powerful that all He has to do is say something and it happens...

  *Poofing* things into existance is about the most brute and inelegant solution you could come up with. It's the way children think the world works.  

"I tell you unless you change and become like little children you shall never enter the kingdom of heaven." -> Matthew 18:#  

Morat · Jul 29, 2002

  Ever wonder, just offhand, how God would explain evolution to a bunch of primitive shepards in a language without words for DNA?

  I'm sure he could slam the knowledge right into their goat-herding little heads, if he wanted. On the other hand, if he wasn't going to do it for everyone, perhaps it was easier to use somethign they'd grasp.

  Oh, your verse? Dead wrong. God's creation of the world was the way a child would envision it. His engineering sucks too. He's got a lot to answer to about the human knee.

 

sbbqb7n16 · Jul 29, 2002

He didn't need to tell them what all exactly was involved in doing so... just like you don't explain every detail about the table you sat down at the restaurant to your friend. How many lines were on the table again? All that information is besides the point -> the point was you were at a restaraunt. All the DNA nucleus, cell information, blah blah blah, how many hairs are on each head.... we don't need to know that to know that God created man.

Genesis 1:27 -> "God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them." (Italics mine)

3 times in one verse...God created man. No need to know how he created, just that He created... it doesn't say He "brought forth from the other creatures already on earth" but rather "created"

"'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways,' Declares the LORD. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher that your ways and higher than your thoughts.'" -> Isaiah 55:8-9

Who are you to argue with God about how He can create you? You of little understanding.... you have no idea what God was thinking! And He knows way too much to screw up. Who do you think allowed us to even think up engineering?

Morat · Jul 29, 2002

  Dude, who do you think allowed us to come up with evolution? Who planted the little clues all over the place? Who went out of his little Godly way to make the universe look 15 billion years old, and make us look the product of evolution?

  God did not make us via the literal process described in Genesis, or the universe, the earth, and even the DNA in your own cells is all part of a vast lie to get people to believe something else.

  Note: Your verse merely says he created man. He didn't say how in any way. "Created man via evolution" is perfectly compatable with that.

sbbqb7n16 · Jul 29, 2002

ok you can think that..... but anyways back to the main questions.....

Didaskomenos · Jul 29, 2002

Who are you to argue with God about how He can create you? You of little understanding.... you have no idea what God was thinking! And He knows way too much to screw up. Who do you think allowed us to even think up engineering?

So why do you think he had to make you the way you think he did? I don't really care if he made me by *poof* or by progression - you do! You can't entertain for a moment the notion that you might not have a full grasp of what was supposed to be conveyed in Genesis. You know everything about how and why it was written. "I'm sure that makes God very glad."

Plus Moses wrote the Genesis account Numbers 12:6-8

Whoever wrote Genesis used earlier ancient mythology. God revealed himself to Moses, and if Moses had a hand in redacting Genesis, he inserted the startling observations about monotheism and God's work of Creation. It trivializes myth to call it a riddle, and so even if Moses did write Genesis, there is no reason to call it a riddle. Besides, Moses heard from God face to face - but it doesn't mean that Moses conveyed everything the same way he received it. Maybe Moses got the "full dose," evolution and DNA and everything, but it doesn't mean that he would lay it on the Israelites.

What's metaphorical about it? I suppose that the man He created was metaphorical as well? And the rib he took to form Eve...that was metaphorical? It wasn't a real rib....it was a fake one! And the garden He placed them in was metaphorical too? That's awfully funny... the Hebrew word used for "formed" is "yatsar-> to form/fashion" kinda like a potter takes clay and makes it into something. God fashion formed a man out of the dust of the ground just as He would a clay jar from the same dirt. And if I'm not mistaken, people knew what monkeys were. Genesis wasn't written before Adam, rather it was written later on. Who do you think wrote it?

You ask what's metaphorical about it? Who says I have all the answers? Not me. However, you think you can actually wrap your finite mind around a document written thousands of years ago in a Semitic language, under divine influence?  Ask a Hebrew scholar how their brains viewed the world and processed language - it's sooooo different from the way we do.

And monkeys? They weren't native to the Ancient Near East, and therefore the Israelites likely never saw one. Besides, why should God single out "monkeys" as an ancestor like the Creationists do (for shock value), when there were so many other transitional forms?

I think the Pentateuch is based on extremely old sources, some predating Moses (e.g., Gen. 1-11), and some dated from about the time of Moses, and some after. These were not collected and put in the order and form we know until the days of the kings. Like C. S. Lewis, I believe that "There is the work of redactors and editors in modifying them. On...these I suppose a divine pressure; of which not by any means all need have been conscious."

sbbqb7n16 · Jul 29, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
So why do you think he had to make you the way you think he did? I don't really care if he made me by *poof* or by progression - you do! You can't entertain for a moment the notion that you might not have a full grasp of what was supposed to be conveyed in Genesis. You know everything about how and why it was written. "I'm sure that makes God very glad."

Apparently you do otherwise you wouldn't keep on arguing about it... and I never said I know the whole thing. I just know what the Bible says...

Whoever wrote Genesis used earlier ancient mythology. God revealed himself to Moses, and if Moses had a hand in redacting Genesis, he inserted the startling observations about monotheism and God's work of Creation. It trivializes myth to call it a riddle, and so even if Moses did write Genesis, there is no reason to call it a riddle. Besides, Moses heard from God face to face - but it doesn't mean that Moses conveyed everything the same way he received it. Maybe Moses got the "full dose," evolution and DNA and everything, but it doesn't mean that he would lay it on the Israelites.

So in other words you don't believe the Bible.... why didn't you just say so? You underestimate the people back then. They weren't all just cavemen walking around, they were people like you and me... I think they could understand if I can what evolution is. So if God wanted to tell us, I think He could...

You ask what's metaphorical about it? Who says I have all the answers? Not me. However, you think you can actually wrap your finite mind around a document written thousands of years ago in a Semitic language, under divine influence?  Ask a Hebrew scholar how their brains viewed the world and processed language - it's sooooo different from the way we do.

I never said so. You apparently know more than God did, because He couldn't explain it well enough for you... God even had it separated out where He said that "God created man." He made it very clear. You think they could understand how one can take out a rib? Why not say that creatures gradually got better and better and now they were at the top of where they would get? That's easy to understand...but He didn't! He said He created man. Simple as that.

And monkeys? They weren't native to the Ancient Near East, and therefore the Israelites likely never saw one. Besides, why should God single out "monkeys" as an ancestor like the Creationists do (for shock value), when there were so many other transitional forms?

A common example of what people can relate to. Supposedly we both came from a previous ancestor and man did not come from monkeys... But it's just an easy example to say where evolutionsists think we came from. A more primal animal... And I don't believe either of the cases. We came from the dirt of the ground...

I think the Pentateuch is based on extremely old sources, some predating Moses (e.g., Gen. 1-11), and some dated from about the time of Moses, and some after. These were not collected and put in the order and form we know until the days of the kings. Like C. S. Lewis, I believe that "There is the work of redactors and editors in modifying them. On...these I suppose a divine pressure; of which not by any means all need have been conscious."

And I think you're wrong... I'm not saying what I think only. I'm saying what the Bible says. You keep trying to explain away the Bible to try and escape the truth of what it says. You can't just change around the Bible to suit your own purposes. You are declaring what it means. I tell you what it says...

seebs · Jul 29, 2002

There's a big difference between believing the Bible's spiritual messages, and trying to use it as a science textbook.

I haven't seen you address the question of the immovable earth yet. Do you deny that that is exactly what Scripture says about the Earth?

Didaskomenos · Jul 29, 2002

Apparently you do otherwise you wouldn't keep on arguing about it...

I am only debating this because I believe it, not because I think it's unthinkable that God would *poof* create. My presupposition is that my mind is too small to comprehend all the truth God has placed in the Bible. Let's look at yours:

I just know what the Bible says...

I'm saying what the Bible says

I'm not saying what I think only. I'm saying what the Bible says.

I tell you what it says...

I do think those statements above presuppose your ability to interpret what you've read, a presumptuous assumption which I am not about to make in either of our cases.

So in other words you don't believe the Bible.... why didn't you just say so? You underestimate the people back then. They weren't all just cavemen walking around, they were people like you and me... I think they could understand if I can what evolution is. So if God wanted to tell us, I think He could...

You might as well say, "If God wanted to, he could have just sent Jesus to begin with, and by-passed the hundreds of years of the sacrificial system." Don't you think that maybe we're missing something? I think a lot of it has to do with the people not being ready.

I believe God. I trust him. I try not to lean on my own understanding, even if it's as obvious as you think the literal interpretation is.

sbbqb7n16 · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I am only debating this because I believe it, not because I think it's unthinkable that God would *poof* create. My presupposition is that my mind is too small to comprehend all the truth God has placed in the Bible. Let's look at yours:

As do I! I believe that God created us from dust not other living organisms evolved gradually to get where we are now... And now apparently you know my mind? Interesting...And I never have said that I know all the truth in the Bible, have I?

I do think those statements above presuppose your ability to interpret what you've read, a presumptuous assumption which I am not about to make in either of our cases.

I think that the above statements presuppose my ability to READ.

You might as well say, "If God wanted to, he could have just sent Jesus to begin with, and by-passed the hundreds of years of the sacrificial system." Don't you think that maybe we're missing something? I think a lot of it has to do with the people not being ready.

Yeah you could... but He didn't. And I won't argue with Him on that...He did things in His own time. Besides no one would have understood the need for Him had He come before everything else...

I believe God. I trust him. I try not to lean on my own understanding, even if it's as obvious as you think the literal interpretation is.

I believe God, and I trust Him as well. But at some point you need to understand what God says to you... God said He created you. Trust Him on that...It's a lie of Satan to tell you that "it's too obvious" or "too easy" which is the principle behind grace. If God created you... science, chance, and anything else can't take the glory... and if you could earn your way to heaven by works.... Jesus can't have all the glory. It just doesn't work that way...

npetreley · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by Didaskomenos

Whoever wrote Genesis used earlier ancient mythology.

And Dida knows this is true because he saw "The Making of Genesis" on PBS, a documentary where they interviewed the original authors and the authors of the myths that preceded Genesis. It was a fascinating show.

Didaskomenos · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by npetreley

And Dida knows this is true because he saw "The Making of Genesis" on PBS, a documentary where they interviewed the original authors and the authors of the myths that preceded Genesis. It was a fascinating show.

This is a place to state what we believe.  That's my belief, based on study rather than a surface reading.  Sue me.

And yes, I know I should laugh at that, because it's kinda funny.  So

Didaskomenos · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16

I believe God, and I trust Him as well. But at some point you need to understand what God says to you... God said He created you. Trust Him on that...It's a lie of Satan to tell you that "it's too obvious" or "too easy" which is the principle behind grace. If God created you... science, chance, and anything else can't take the glory... and if you could earn your way to heaven by works.... Jesus can't have all the glory. It just doesn't work that way...

You're right, I confess, God created me.  But wait - that's what I've been saying all along!  I'm not crediting bumbling scientists because they discovered that God created the universe, I'm worshipping God for what he did.  I just think science has been able to shed light on how we should interpret the Bible's account of how God created the universe.

Specific Question on Evolution...

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