Romans 3:23 - Does "all" really mean "all"?

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holdon

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:sigh: OK...now that we've established that...there are also qualifiers all around 2 Peter 3:9. 'Us', 'we', 'you'. Context, context, context!!!

Ok, you agree that "all" = all, all the time?

Here is the context:

But let not this one thing be hidden from you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 3:9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements, burning with heat, shall be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it shall be burnt up. 3:11 All these things then being to be dissolved, what ought ye to be in holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements, burning with heat, shall melt? 3:13 But, according to his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, as ye wait for these things, be diligent to be found of him in peace, without spot and blameless; 3:15 and account the longsuffering of our Lord to be salvation; according as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him,
Now, the beloved in v. 8 are the saved, right?
The "you" in v.9 are the saved, right?
So, why would there be a concern that those "saved" would perish? Why would those "saved" have to come to repentance?
 
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GrinningDwarf

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The "you" in v.9 are the saved, right?
So, why would there be a concern that those "saved" would perish? Why would those "saved" have to come to repentance?

I've already answered this twice; you havn't responded to it once.
 
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holdon

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I've already answered this twice; you havn't responded to it once.

Yes, but it wasn't exactly the right answer. If the "you" of v.9 are believers, then "any perish" and "all come to repentance" does not apply to them. Therefore the meaning of the passage is different. And look at the context:
The believers were suffering. Peter encourages them and says the Lord has not forgotten about you, but He needs more time so that others can come to repentance and believe also, until He comes back and the period of grace closes.
 
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Advent Christian

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Hello all :wave:

As to the OP the best interpretation for God's Word is God's Word. Back up to Romans 3:10;
Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
The text is teaching the failure of all (and I intend this as being all inclusive) and that Christ alone is perfect and there for able to stand in our place to take the sins of the world upon Himself, willingly.
As to rather or not Mary was sinless I respect both views however as for me I have to go with the understanding dhe was a mortal woman and would be included in the all have fell short other wise Jesus would not be her savior.
Anyway just wanted to stick a hand in and say hello, as always my love to all :hug: and May God Bless. :angel:
 
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AFriendinChrist

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All have sinned, therefore all are of the flesh, yet, all are still made in God's image, so you may come to the cross to receive Christ, though, not by the flesh. Never think God saves you first before you can believe, for that could never glorify God; He longs to see the person make the choice for Him and in so receiving God's eternal life, the saved soul is preserved towards perfection, Some will grieve the Holy Spirit or cause Him joy along the way, nonetheless, it is a guarantee for those who receive God's uncreated life when they are born-again into the new creation according to John 3:16!
 
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GrinningDwarf

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Yes, but it wasn't exactly the right answer. If the "you" of v.9 are believers, then "any perish" and "all come to repentance" does not apply to them. Therefore the meaning of the passage is different. And look at the context:
The believers were suffering. Peter encourages them and says the Lord has not forgotten about you, but He needs more time so that others can come to repentance and believe also, until He comes back and the period of grace closes.

And since all (there's that pesky word again! D'oh!) of the qualifiers in the passage refer to believers/the elect, it also follows that the 'others' the Lord is waiting for are the rest of the elect...and I explained how that works already, but you have not responded to it, so a simple denial or continued ignoring of the point will be dodging the issue on your part.
 
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holdon

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And since all (there's that pesky word again! D'oh!) of the qualifiers in the passage refer to believers/the elect, it also follows that the 'others' the Lord is waiting for are the rest of the elect...and I explained how that works already, but you have not responded to it
No, I have said that I agree with the fact that believers in Christ are elect in this dispensation. But the problem is that you can't say they are elect until they have become believers. And since is nonsense to say about believers that they should not perish or come to repentance, the text refers to all who are not believers. And that matches perfectly with a number of texts with similar scope saying things like:

Christ a ransom for all
God desires that all men be saved
Christ died for all
God so loved the world
the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
He is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world.
God, now enjoins men that they shall all everywhere repent
 
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GrinningDwarf

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No, I have said that I agree with the fact that believers in Christ are elect in this dispensation. But the problem is that you can't say they are elect until they have become believers.

Uh, right. I did say...and demonstrate... that the elect still need to come to a belief to actually be saved, and others and I also addressed the Scriptures you keep wanting to reference, and all you can do is keep saying "no,it's not."

At this point, the conversation has reached the
1beb8b2ae6d61633f35d740313c6c610.gif
stage.
 
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hoser

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Maybe we should all just forget the Bible since evidently anything it says can be changed to mean something else. :(

Exactly Lynn! No offense but you are a perfect example of that. What makes "your interpretation" the interpretation that is correct? Hmmmmm? Are you your own pope? Are you the final decider of what scripture means? Should I ask you what a verse means if I am not sure?
 
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Assisi

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I think when discussion the issue of elect, we need to remember that God is not restricted to time like we are. Christ died for the whole world, yes every single human being. It's up to us whether we choose to accept the salvation He offers us. God knows who will accept before we do, so there can be 'elect' who don't know it yet. I think it's probably impossible to know exactly how this works. God thoughts and ways are high above ours. (Isaiah)

Bible interpretation? I agree with hoser, interpreting the Scriptures for yourself is making yourself a pope unto yourself. It doesn't work, hence there are over 350,000 different registered Protestant denominations. A church with 500 different popes is more difficult to manage than a church with one.
 
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M

Monergism

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Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.

If ignorance is given a factor by means that one does not sin, then let us never speak of the word ever again, and keep silent of the Gospel. One of God's laws, "Do not murder," is committed everyday by people, whether it be literal or figurative, yet, those who do it figuratively, are ignorant most of the time. But, then we come to question where the boundries of one who does sin, if they sin with or without knowledge, that if they are sinful at all. You give those who are ignorant, a type of "autosoterism," that is, that they are redeemed by their own efforts, rather than God's grace. Yet, it is curious as to whether or not a child, being only six, shoots another child and murders him or her, that this should not be called a sin. So, what logic is there behind what you said, except questions?

Now lets use some scripture to see if "all" means "all". The problem with this is that the word 'ALL' here is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of. Here are some scripture verses.

Let's quote each of these verses that you present, in the Greek.

John 12:19
So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" This verse does not use the word "all" but the context is the same. "the whole world has gone after him." Really, did everyone in the whole world go after Christ?

It's quite obvious that they did not. This is the most commonly asked question concerning the word "all" or "whole world." It's true, that in some senses, "all" does not necessarily mean "every single individual," but "nations, tribes, and tongues." κοσμος (kosmos) is the Greek word used here in this verse.

Matthew 3:5-6
Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, (6) and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Really? Were all of Judea and all the region about the Jordan Baptized? Does "all" really mean all here?

In the context, no, it does not. And there's nothing about this verse that proves your belief anyway. It's contextually in there to provide that "all" does not mean "every single individual." But, only in this context.
πασα (pasa) is used in every word for "all" here.

In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled. Was everyone in the whole wide world enrolled or counted? Really?

Put aside that tone of yours. I can be sarcastic too. πασαν (pasan) is used here.

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???

No, it's not true, and I don't even have to get into Greek to affirm that. If it were true that all of Israel would be saved, the Paul's words are in vain, for he said, "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel" (Rom. 9:3, 4a). Furthermore, Paul writes in verse 17, "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.'" Please, save all us Protestants the trouble. πας (pas) is used in this verse.

Romans 15:14
I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Gee, I thought only God was filled with "all" knowledge. But according to protestant definition of the word "all", apparently every single one of us is filled with "all" knowledge.

Thanks for the straw man fallacy and hasty generalization. Don't commit for yourself, logical fallacies.

The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.

As well as a number of other sinless souls, right? Romans 3:23 uses the Greek word, παντες (pantes). Now, put aside your emotionalism and affirm the Word of God. Don't give me any emotional-based arguments, or that you could not see God as One who would damn an infant to the fires of gehenna. If you do so, you might give in yourself an idol, and as we know it, John writes, "Dear children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 John 5:21).

As an added bonus, what did the founder of protestantism say about Mary on her state of sin? Let's take a look.
"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin."
Martin Luther: Sermon, 1527



Yes, how Catholics enjoy quoting Martin Luther, a man who once was a Catholic. When was this sermon written? Before, or after? It matters not, really, seeing that I do not take up for myself as a follower of one man or another, but only Christ.

Hello Jim, how do you know Mary physically died?

Argumentum ad ignoratiam. Why should either position be held as true, unless proven otherwise, when neither position can do so? Don't repeat this logical fallacy.

How did you know that she didn't? The bible only listed a few who didn't died. Mary was not on that list. :wave:

You too, should not commit this same fallacy as Yeznik.
 
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Assisi

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If ignorance is given a factor by means that one does not sin, then let us never speak of the word ever again, and keep silent of the Gospel. One of God's laws, "Do not murder," is committed everyday by people, whether it be literal or figurative, yet, those who do it figuratively, are ignorant most of the time. But, then we come to question where the boundries of one who does sin, if they sin with or without knowledge, that if they are sinful at all. You give those who are ignorant, a type of "autosoterism," that is, that they are redeemed by their own efforts, rather than God's grace. Yet, it is curious as to whether or not a child, being only six, shoots another child and murders him or her, that this should not be called a sin. So, what logic is there behind what you said, except questions?

I am asking these questions because I have never had an oportunity to ask them of someone who actually believes what you do. I'm not trying to make a point. So can you answer them for me in your opinion? Thanks.

In your opinion, when does someone start being able to sin? Conception? Birth? Two years? How do you define it?
In your opinion, is there ever a time when an evil act is commited which may not be a sin? eg. someone with a mental illness kills someone? Is that a sin? What about if someone accidentally pushes a button which releases an atomic bomb on a city of civilians?
What determines a mortal sin in your opinion? Eg. We say it must be a grave act eg. against the ten commandments, it must be done with full knowledge, and with full consent.

The reason I ask what determines a mortal sin in your opinion is because it seems like you are saying that the 6 yr old commited a mortal sin because the act was very evil. I would agree that the act was very evil, but the child may not have known and understood what it was doing. In my opinion, only God knows whether this child has sinned.

And just to answer your question. It is not so much ignorance that means a person does not sin as it is incapacity. We do believe that in some cases the ignorant can be saved by the grace of God. Not all cases. But that's not the same issue as capacity to sin.


Yes, how Catholics enjoy quoting Martin Luther, a man who once was a Catholic. When was this sermon written? Before, or after? It matters not, really, seeing that I do not take up for myself as a follower of one man or another, but only Christ.

Luther held on to his devotion to Mary for his whole life. I think we quote him to demonstrate that the position held by many Protestants today is a new one, even for nonCatholics. We are not suggesting that all Protestants follow Luther, just that the Protestantism of today is largly made up of new bleliefs. Oh, and it was written after he left the Church in 1520.
 
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Monergism

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In your opinion, is there ever a time when an evil act is commited which may not be a sin? eg. someone with a mental illness kills someone? Is that a sin?

If it were not a sin, then it would not be evil. You use the word "kills." I find such word incorrect, because to kill is to take someone's life lawfully, while murder is to take someone's life unlawfully. Now, if someone with a mental illness murders someone, is it a sin? I'll leave that up to Scripture to decide, and not my own opinion. It states, "Do not murder." What does this imply, if someone does murder?

What about if someone accidentally pushes a button which releases an atomic bomb on a city of civilians?

Accidents happen, but I doubt God would wink and say, "Boys will be boys." Besides, whoever does "accidentally pushes a button which releases an atomic bomb on a city of civilians," he or she does not belong in such a place, especially with such carelessness.

What determines a mortal sin in your opinion? Eg. We say it must be a grave act eg. against the ten commandments, it must be done with full knowledge, and with full consent.

I don't believe in "mortal" sin. And in the Old Testament, it turns out that people who sinned ignorantly, needed to be atoned for. Again, if one sins ignorantly, and if ignorance means that one has not actually sinned, because they have lacked the knowledge of the sin, then we may as well put aside any mentioning of sin, what sin is, and anything from the Word of God.

The reason I ask what determines a mortal sin in your opinion is because it seems like you are saying that the 6 yr old commited a mortal sin because the act was very evil. I would agree that the act was very evil, but the child may not have known and understood what it was doing. In my opinion, only God knows whether this child has sinned.

Children are nothing less of human, as if becoming man made any difference. And ignorance is not a reason as to why one should not be held accountable. If the child has broken a commandment, and if God commands that we should not do such, because it is a sin, then the child sinned, regardless of his or her knowledge.
 
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Assisi

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So, you think that the act itself constitues the sin and the attitude of the person at the time has no bearing on it?

I guess that's where we disagree, I think that someone has to will to sin. In my opinion, it's the choice which is wrong, not the act alone.

Just a couple of things in reply to your post.
First, you note that I said that incapacity is not the same as ignorance. I would say that an unborn child does not have the capacity to sin. In fact I still fail to see your reasoning as to how an unborn child can sin. It is not ignorance of the Law which makes this so, it is an inability.
Secondly, I am surprised to hear that you don't believe in a distinction between mortal and venial sin!

1 John 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

Pointing out that there's sin which is not mortal would implay that there is also sin that is.
 
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Assisi

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So, you think that the act itself constitues the sin and the attitude of the person at the time has no bearing on it?

I guess that's where we disagree, I think that someone has to will to sin. In my opinion, it's the choice which is wrong, not the act alone.

Just a couple of things in reply to your post.
First, you note that I said that incapacity is not the same as ignorance. I would say that an unborn child does not have the capacity to sin. In fact I still fail to see your reasoning as to how an unborn child can sin. It is not ignorance of the Law which makes this so, it is an inability.
Secondly, I am surprised to hear that you don't believe in a distinction between mortal and venial sin!

1 John 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.

Pointing out that there's sin which is not mortal would imply that there is also sin that is.
 
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Yeznik

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If ignorance is given a factor by means that one does not sin, then let us never speak of the word ever again, and keep silent of the Gospel. One of God's laws, "Do not murder," is committed everyday by people, whether it be literal or figurative, yet, those who do it figuratively, are ignorant most of the time. But, then we come to question where the boundries of one who does sin, if they sin with or without knowledge, that if they are sinful at all. You give those who are ignorant, a type of "autosoterism," that is, that they are redeemed by their own efforts, rather than God's grace. Yet, it is curious as to whether or not a child, being only six, shoots another child and murders him or her, that this should not be called a sin. So, what logic is there behind what you said, except questions?



Let's quote each of these verses that you present, in the Greek.



It's quite obvious that they did not. This is the most commonly asked question concerning the word "all" or "whole world." It's true, that in some senses, "all" does not necessarily mean "every single individual," but "nations, tribes, and tongues." κοσμος (kosmos) is the Greek word used here in this verse.



In the context, no, it does not. And there's nothing about this verse that proves your belief anyway. It's contextually in there to provide that "all" does not mean "every single individual." But, only in this context.
πασα (pasa) is used in every word for "all" here.



Put aside that tone of yours. I can be sarcastic too. πασαν (pasan) is used here.



No, it's not true, and I don't even have to get into Greek to affirm that. If it were true that all of Israel would be saved, the Paul's words are in vain, for he said, "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel" (Rom. 9:3, 4a). Furthermore, Paul writes in verse 17, "Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: 'Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.'" Please, save all us Protestants the trouble. πας (pas) is used in this verse.



Thanks for the straw man fallacy and hasty generalization. Don't commit for yourself, logical fallacies.



As well as a number of other sinless souls, right? Romans 3:23 uses the Greek word, παντες (pantes). Now, put aside your emotionalism and affirm the Word of God. Don't give me any emotional-based arguments, or that you could not see God as One who would damn an infant to the fires of gehenna. If you do so, you might give in yourself an idol, and as we know it, John writes, "Dear children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 John 5:21).



Yes, how Catholics enjoy quoting Martin Luther, a man who once was a Catholic. When was this sermon written? Before, or after? It matters not, really, seeing that I do not take up for myself as a follower of one man or another, but only Christ.



Argumentum ad ignoratiam. Why should either position be held as true, unless proven otherwise, when neither position can do so? Don't repeat this logical fallacy.



You too, should not commit this same fallacy as Yeznik.


Hey, speaking of fallacy and hypocracy I recommend reading the thread I opened. Its called, Know Tradition, Know Christianit, No Tradition, No Christianity.
 
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NarrowPathPilgrim

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The words "all" and "world" do have exceptions. But this is not one of them. Mary did sin, as did everyone else. The human nature is enslaved to sin, and without God's help it is impossible for man to do good.

Firstly, let's start out with some logic here. Do infants sin or children below the age of reason sin? Do the senile sin? Do mentally retarded persons sin? In some cases they may know they aren't supposed to do something, but do they have knowledge that it is a sin? If a three year old is hitting a brother and is told not to but does it anyway are they sinning? No, they might know that they are not supposed to do it, but they don't have knowledge that they are sinning. So by just using simple logic here we can see that these people are subtracted from the "all" in Romans 3:23. So "all" does not mean "all" in these cases.
WRONG! Sin starts at birth, for everyone, no exceptions.
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; Is this true, will everyone in Israel be saved? Really, every single person???
Wow. This is a huge misinterpretation. The New Testament "Israel" is not the physical descendants of Abraham; instead it refers to God's elect. ALL of God's elect WILL BE SAVED! Just read the whole chapter and you will see this doctrine expressed very clearly!

Anyhow, you really need to study the doctrine of total depravity. Scripture is clear; man is dead in sins and utterly unable to do good apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Sincerely,
Zach Doty
 
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