Marriage Licenses

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NarrowPathPilgrim

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Hello,
My church is having a wedding this week, and the couple plans on obtaining a marriage license, so I wrote up a seven page article on marriage licenses and why I am so opposed to them.
Having written it, I thought that I might as well post it here for the edification of other Christians!
Click here to read it.

God Bless,
Zach Doty

PS. Comments are welcome, but read the whole before making up your mind!
 

Maccie

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Can't see the problem myself! In the UK, all marriages are necessarily licensed. Rules are exactly the same.

And how are two non-Christians supposed to get married then, if your so-called contract with the State is so dreadful?

I do sometimes wonder why Americans make everything so complicated!
 
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a_ntv

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I agree mainly with you.

For the Catholic Church the marriage is a SACRAMENT, like baptism and Eucharist. It is evident that the State is not part of it.

But we live in a community of people, and the mariage have also a meaning of the other people. So we can understand that the State can be involved.

So most of the times, the religious mariage is made valid also for civil purposes: that is right because we live in a comunity, and we shall respect the rules of the comunity (when not againt superior rules)

Anyway, only if there are deep reasons, the CC can celebrate a religious marriage without any civil resuls. I dont know if it is legal in the US, but for sure it is valid in front of God.
 
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NarrowPathPilgrim

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How are two non-Christians supposed to get married then, if your so-called contract with the State is so dreadful?
Good question.
I believe marriage must be approved by an ecclesiastical jurisdiction. And therefore, their marriage covenant must be signed by at least two witnesses and by a pastor.
Adultery and other marital crimes are under the jurisdiction of the state. So if a non-Christian were to avoid the marriage covenant altogether there would and should be repercussion from civil authorities. But, as I have mentioned in the article, any government which is not in compliance with scripture has no authority.

For the Catholic Church the marriage is a SACRAMENT, like baptism and Eucharist. It is evident that the State is not part of it.
I would have to disagree with this. There are three spheres of authority, civil, ecclesiastical, and family. Though there are relationships between all three they are separate jurisdictions in most respects.
As John Calvin said: "Lastly, there is matrimony, which all admit was instituted by God, though no one before the time of (Pope) Gregory regarded it as a sacrament. What man in his sober senses could so regard it? God's ordinance is good and holy; so also are agriculture, architecture, shoemaking, hair-cutting legitimate ordinances of God, but they are not sacraments."

But we live in a community of people, and the mariage have also a meaning of the other people. So we can understand that the State can be involved.

So most of the times, the religious mariage is made valid also for civil purposes: that is right because we live in a comunity, and we shall respect the rules of the comunity (when not againt superior rules)
When you refer to the "rules of the community" you are referring to civil government. Currently, American government is nothing more than a big bully claiming to be legitimate. It is certainly not the "minister of God to thee for good" which scripture defines as true government. There is no authority but of God.

Sincerely,
Zach Doty
 
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QuantaCura

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As John Calvin said: "Lastly, there is matrimony, which all admit was instituted by God, though no one before the time of (Pope) Gregory regarded it as a sacrament. What man in his sober senses could so regard it? God's ordinance is good and holy; so also are agriculture, architecture, shoemaking, hair-cutting legitimate ordinances of God, but they are not sacraments."

John Calvin didn't do his homework. Below is St. Augustine, well before St. Gregory, explicitly calling it a sacrament. Also, "sacrament" is a Latin-based word so most of more ancient fathers would not use it since they spoke Greek.

"Therefore the good of marriage throughout all nations and all men stands in the occasion of begetting, and faith of chastity: but, so far as pertains unto the People of God, also in the sanctity of the Sacrament, by reason of which it is unlawful for one who leaves her husband, even when she has been put away, to be married to another, so long as her husband lives, no not even for the sake of bearing children: and, whereas this is the alone cause, wherefore marriage takes place, not even where that very thing, wherefore it takes place, follows not, is the marriage bond loosed, save by the death of the husband or wife.” Augustine, On the Good of Marriage, 24:32 (A.D. 401).
 
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a_ntv

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Even the OO Churches, that separated from us in the V century, consider the marriage a sacrament.

But here we should agree on what is a sacrament, and to do it we should agree on what is the Church, and to do it we should agree on what is the man.....so let's us not enter in that in this thread.

About the authorities, remember that Jesus said Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. So the authority of the State is a valid authority and it doesn't touch the authority of God (in case it does, the authority of God is preeminent). Like a Christians, we shall obey to the State authority (when not against God authority).
 
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Tonks

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I found it rather silly, frankly. Particularly the constant back and forth between snippets of unrelated law and bits and pieces from the Bible.

There are other things that the civil side of marrige permits - such as making medical decisions and inheritance issues. Whether or not marriage is sacramental is, of course, a debate between Christians. However, the state has a valid and compelling interest when it comes to the regulation of marriages.

Sorry. Disagree completely.
 
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NarrowPathPilgrim

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About the authorities, remeber that Jesus said Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. So the authority of the State is a valid authority and it doesnot touch the authority of God (in case it does, the authority of God is preminent). Like a Christian we shall obbey to the State authority (when not against God authority).
Yes. Scripture does command that I give to Caesar what is Caesar's. It also commands that I give to you what is yours, and to God what is God's. Never does scripture command that we give to Caesar what is yours, never does scripture command that we give to Caeser what he claims, no, only what is his. Caesar himself belongs to God.
But speaking of Caesar, who is Caesar? The President? Congress? The Senate? No, Caesar, in America, is We the People. We the People are sovereign in America, government is our servant.
When reading that verse we must put the emphasis where it belongs, render to God the things that are God's. And remember the motto of the revolutionary war, "NO KING BUT KING JESUS!"

Sincerely,
Zach Doty
 
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NarrowPathPilgrim

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Been married over 30 years now and having a license didn't seem to hurt us any
It may not seem like it, but it has granted the courts jurisdiction over your marriage.
If the government requires you to purchase a license in order to parent a child next year, will you pay the money for the sake of ease? Or will you exercise your God-given right to parent?
The government has passed laws making child discipline illegal, will you obey scripture and discipline or will you compromise and capitulate with the third party of your marriage (the state)?
I am not asking these questions to put you on the spot, but merely to make you think about the legal ramifications of entering into a license agreement with the state. Remember, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee...I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6. Just because it doesn't "seem to hurt" you, that doesn't mean that it didn't.

I pray you will be obedient to our Lord in the sacred covenant of marriage.
Take heed that you do not render to Caesar the things which are God's.

Sincerely,
Zach Doty
 
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Maccie

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But, as I have mentioned in the article, any government which is not in compliance with scripture has no authority.

Er... have you actually thought that statement through? Scripture doesn't say much about speeding on the Motorway (Freeway) or dropping rubbish on the railway tracks, or a lot of other things that are illegal. Do you (as in Narrowpathpilgrim) do these and then refuse to pay fines when convicted because "the government has no authority"?

Just wondering.......
 
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Tonks

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It may not seem like it, but it has granted the courts jurisdiction over your marriage.

Assuming your profile is correct I'm going with the old married dude. Probably knows a bit more about the long term civil and reglious aspects of marriage.
 
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The Prokeimenon!

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Also, "sacrament" is a Latin-based word so most of more ancient fathers would not use it since they spoke Greek.

Very true. However, the Greek word which is also translated as sacrament is "mystery". So ALL of the Greek fathers who spoke of marriage spoke of it as a sacrament (mystery). Saint Paul also spoke of marriage as a sacrament (mystery). So you've got all the Greek fathers, and, I'm assuming, the Latin fathers as well all referring to marriage as a sacrament (in whichever language they happened to speak.)

Rdr Moses
 
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tulc

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It may not seem like it, but it has granted the courts jurisdiction over your marriage.
Well no, not really. :)

If the government requires you to purchase a license in order to parent a child next year, will you pay the money for the sake of ease? Or will you exercise your God-given right to parent?
I can't really answer hypothetical questions and Mrs.tulc and I are done having kids so that doesn't apply to me.

The government has passed laws making child discipline illegal, will you obey scripture and discipline or will you compromise and capitulate with the third party of your marriage (the state)?
again hypothetical. I will say this: before ANYONE in America could pass a law like that? We'd have had a pretty serious shake-up in the government and spanking kids doesn't seem like something they'd worry about anytime soon afterwards. :)
I am not asking these questions to put you on the spot,
That's alright I don't feel put on the spot.

but merely to make you think about the legal ramifications of entering into a license agreement with the state. Remember, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee...I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6. Just because it doesn't "seem to hurt" you, that doesn't mean that it didn't.
doesn't mean it did either. ;)

I pray you will be obedient to our Lord in the sacred covenant of marriage.

Take heed that you do not render to Caesar the things which are God's.

Sincerely,
Zach Doty
Thank you, I think I've done pretty good so far, but I can always use more prayer! :pray:
tulc(the old married dude!) ;)
 
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