David Cloud, Bill Gothard, Jack Chick, Jack Hyles, and Hyper-Fundamentalism

Have you heard the "teachings" of. . .

  • David Cloud?

  • Jack Hyles?

  • Jack Chick?

  • Bill Gothard?

  • Berit Kjos?

  • Peter Ruckman?

  • Other well-known legalists?


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Gerry

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Thank you for this awesome post and reminder of what is truly important!



Originally posted by GreenEyedLady
I hope I don't get all hard core on you all.
But the fact is the gospel is plain and simple. Jesus was born, died and rose from the dead and assended into heaven. This is the truth, the way and the light.
Why does it matter who says what about what doctrine? Let me ask you this.....when is the last time you went out and witnessed to your loved ones? When was the last time you talked about THE GOSPEL, Jesus Christ. Forget the doctrines, forget the debates. Can you NOT see that it gets you nowhere? We need to STOP anailazing and just obey what the bible says. How hard is that? How hard is it stop just obey as God commandes us to do? Things comming out of man's mouth seem sour, but do they have a point? Christ states in
Matthew 10:34 _Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Why do many christians think that Jesus is here to send peace? To join together to be come one with the world? You don't like what you hear? Read it...somethimes we don't like what we hear, sometimes the bible is a mirror that shows our imperfections that we reject because we cannot stand what the bible says is true. Is the world sour? Of course it is!!! The world is NOT peace. What are you looking for? Some man that makes the world look all good and peaceful? The bible says the world is NOT to be loved. These men, maybe you don't like what you hear. Maybe you don't like what they have to say..but is it possible that these men ARE being lead by the Holy spirit to WAKE up those christian who are "sleeping" in the world?
Christ said I AM NOT HERE TO BRING PEACE!!!!
I may disagree with some of what these men have to say....but the truth hurts. The bible is being used as a sword to discern the spirits that are of this world.

Hebrews 5:14 _But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

what are your thoughts and intents of YOUR heart? Why spend all day debating about what is right and wrong and start leading people to Christ? Will you feel shame as you stand efore the jundgement seat of Christ and look around and NOT se your loved ones standing with you? What will you say to your loved ones who ask you..."WHY didn't you try harder? Why did you keep this from me?"

Get your behinds out there are lead some people to Christ, teach them about the word of God, show them to obey God is to get baptised. They they will spead the message to others. What are you waiting for? Are you scared? Do you feel shame at a party because your NOT sure in they way others will react? This is satan whispering words of rejections to those who YOU think might NOT want to hear what you have to say. Do IT TELL THEM ABOUT salvation, tell them about the Word of God. Stop the debating and stop thinking and analizing and JUST OBEY whatthe Word of God says!

Sorry, I just feel convicted to write this. To Stop the debates. stop telling those YOU think are wrong and start with the TRUTH, which YOU KNOW is in Gods Word!
DO it....like the nike ad says "just do it" OBEY!
Loveyou all with all my soul and heart.
GEL
 
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Susan

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It was a good post. :)

However I would like to have a good, non-flaming, reasoned discussion about legalism, its manifestations, and its effects. I was just using Chick, Cloud, and Kjos as examples to get us started. :)

So I am sorry if it looked as if I was slandering men or causes of God: I deeply apologize. :sorry:
 
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Plan 9

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Sometimes it matters very much who says what about what doctrine!

Desperate people go to some of these folks hoping to find new life in Jesus and instead become enslaved in a Cult of Personality.

By the time they finally discover that they have been the victim of a psychopath, some have lost all hope.

In Proverbs it says that hope deferred makes the heart sick.

Susan has come through this experience in an extrordinary way, but many don't survive it.

Surely God does not want us to sit idly by while psychopathic charlatans turn people away from God for good or so emotionally damage them that their walk with God constitutes a struggle to accept gifts from God that we received as very new Christians and take for granted.

GreenEyedLady, I say this with the utmost respect. If you can examine the thoughts and intents of your own heart without the help of your Christian brothers and sisters, then you have been given a gift which most of us have not.

That must be why you don't understand that Susan started this thread partly for reasons of self-examination. Anyone who has been through the experience she has needs to think through what is right and what is wrong in day-to-day Christian living.

If God made us in His own image, our intellect was given to us to use.

I want to thank you, Susan for starting this thread. I am already leaning a great deal from you and you have given me a precious gift without knowing it.

When I came online, I was so depressed over my apparent failure to help a friend who had fallen under the influence of someone much like the men you've mentioned here that I was ready to give up the fight. I felt useless. Now, I'm ready to go back to the work that God has called me to do.

: personal note to Susan :

Susan, if in this post I have ASSUMED and then written something about you that is incorrect, please let me know. HEE HAW HEE HAW!!   
 
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GreenEyedLady

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GreenEyedLady, I say this with the utmost respect. If you can examine the thoughts and intents of your own heart without the help of your Christian brothers and sisters, then you have been given a gift which most of us have not.

Here is the problem....WE are all suppose to use the TRUTH, GOD's WORD to dicern our own thoughts and inents our our own hearts.

Hebrews 4:12 _For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Its not what our friends say, its not what our brothers and sisters in Christ say its what GOD says. Those who are lead astray in whatever false doctrine there areout there are listing to man and ot examining the Word of God. Not using it as their sword to cut off the world words of men.

I didn't post here to dampen the debate party. I just feel like most the these discussions are fruitless. Could you not produce better fruit it you took your engery that you use debating and turned it into teaching, preaching, witnessing? My point is drop the doctrines and read the Word of God. Pray and read. How can one think that using Gods Word is not enough? How come we let the Word of God become as dry as reading the newspaper? You know it happens. It happens to all of us.
The Word of God is HIS love letter to us. If you have a question pray about it. If you feel a conviction, read and pray about it. If THAT is not enough then you will be pulled down.

I have learned NOT to trust man, but to put my full trust in HIM.

I just feel that all this talk about doctrine pulls alot of people OUT of Gods word and in this worldy mess of compitition, strife, bull headedness, CONFUSION,and hurt. This is what the devil wants. He wants you to be confused, he wants you to go outside of Gods Word, he wants to get you mad. He will use anythign and everything it takes you steer you in the wrong direction, which is always AWAY from the Word of God. Its NOT just topic I am talking about. As a matter of fact, I wish I could post this on many other threads. But I felt compelled to reply here.

Is debating ok? Is there a verse in the bible that says"debate with each other and cause strife and confusions against one another?"

Susan, I am not sure about what you have been thru. I have not posted here in awhile except for prayer and updates. I have learned since the death of my precious little girl, NOONE else can do this for me. Noone else can lead me, can help me, can find the words, can encoruage me like those words of My Lord. Even if I don't know what direction I should be going...maybe I should NOT be going in any direction except for where I am now. Just stick to HIS word, and place your energy in what YOU will do for others and all will fall into place.

Again, I love you all. Just felt compelled to reply.
 
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Susan

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My homeschool schoolwork taught a worldview like the one that I mentioned as the "Christian worldview." I didn't do a lot of what I "should do" at the time, so I felt guilty for always being not good enough. Only over the last year have I learned that those little proscriptions don't really matter.

As for Berit Kjos, I read her writings (and those by others quoting her) faithfully for a while and they made me feel like anime and RPGs were demonic and satanic. I gave up all anime and RPGs for a year (April 2001 to April 2002) thinking that would make me "be right with God" and remove the depression that came over my life. It didn't. It only made me feel even worse and become intensely legalistic myself over the issue.
This June, I started noticing the inconsistencies and overwhelming conspiracy-theorist bias in Kjos's material, and finally decided that 90 percent of what is said at the Kjos Ministries site, crossroad.to, is misrepresented or based on fear rather than fact. (The only thing they really got right was the criticism of "Neon Genesis Evangelion.")
 
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Plan 9

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Hello again, GSL!

My personal belief is that debate is a good teacher for many people. But true debate does not cause confusion, strife, bull-headedness, competition or hurt. Contention is never helpful.

Many people have apparently not been taught proper debating methods, which is a shame. Others purposely twist debating methods in order to bully, but I see no sign that this is happening in this thread.

If debate isn't helpful to you in your Christian walk, of course you should avoid it.

I am terribly sorry for your loss!

In no way am I implying that anyone can lead us better than God; I am simply saying that sometimes God speaks to me with the help of my friends and I know this to be true of others.

Certainly, there are Scriptures which encourage us to ask for help from and seek the advice of our Christian friends.

Because I need new eyeglasses, I'd rather not lay a out a large number unless you assure me that you truly wish me to. Also, I worry that I may be getting a bit off-topic by doing so, but I'll try to make a small start:

Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fail: but in the multitude of counsellers there is safety.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.    
 
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Susan

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Also, all the conspiracy material and the spurious allegations at the Kjos site at least could easily make an athiest or agnostic reading the site think that Christianity is nonsense or that he/she is totally without hope of salvation through Jesus Christ.

I am a Christian, and reading that site always makes me feel like I can't go anywhere near God or that He cares anything for a slime like me-at least until I smash my Hello Kitty figurines :rolleyes:
 
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Susan

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The things i mentioned in Post 14.

Like KJV Onlyism, a ban on considering anyone for a serious relationship who isn't of your own race and denomination, and the other things I mentioned there.

I began learning how wrongheaded when I started reading the New Testament again when I was out of school this summer. I dare say that more than half of the things that I'd heard were simply not there. Also, I began looking up sites about KJV Onlyism that refuted it.

As For Kjos, it was when I saw that it was simply too inconsistent, and that I was a worse person for the legalism.

I have to leave now, my sister is ordering me to. See you later. . .:)
 
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Didaskomenos

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I understand, Susan. There has been nothing inappropriate about your posts. You asked a question, and if adult people cannot talk about these things, albeit unpleasant, there is something wrong.

GEL,
I know you've been through a lot, and maybe you're not ready to deal with other potentially divisive issues yet, but we are. We don't feel oppressed in trying to understand the world a little, although if we had been through a tragedy similar to yours recently, we probably would want to talk about certain "more important" things more, too. But at the same time, you have talked about your tragedy, partially to understand what's going on, partially to feel some release - we also may talk about what we consider a tragedy (obviously of much smaller proportion in this case).

"Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together..." That's what the body of Christ is for. We need to talk things out, and the way God made our brains is that we sometimes have to "debate" or disagree to understand things.
 
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Plan 9

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My denomination instituted a psychological test in order to weed out such power abusers from their ordination program and as a result they refused to ordain Jim Jones. He went to another denomination and had what seemed to others in the state to be a good ministry for over 30 years. Yet all those people died needlessly and painfully, himself included.

The progression of a person's mental illness can be quite gradual and therefore hard to detect, especially by people who have good reason to be grateful to him/her.

 
 
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Susan

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My homeschool was not affiliated with my church, BTW. My church teaches grace so that was another thing that made me reconsider my schoolwork's statements. :)

Unfortunately, my pastor does believe what Berit Kjos has to say on certain issues, so as for now, I keep my anime/RPG interests rather well hidden except online and to people who I know are fans, except for one big mistake I made today in mentioning it. Whatever :sigh: check out prayer much later tonight/tomorrow morning when I can work on the post.
 
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Plan 9

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I run an RPG on another site. I've found that acting is beneficial for shy people and an RPG is just another form of acting. I view it as an unscripted play with myself as its director. People have a lot of fun, gain confidence and discover new talents in themselves.

I know that it's fashionable to condemn RPGs, but I can't imagine why, unless the reason is that people have a lot of free floating anxiety and need an object for it. I've been thinking about that lately...
 
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Gerry

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I didn't post here to dampen the debate party. I just feel like most the these discussions are fruitless. Could you not produce better fruit it you took your engery that you use debating and turned it into teaching, preaching, witnessing? My point is drop the doctrines and read the Word of God. Pray and read. How can one think that using Gods Word is not enough? How come we let the Word of God become as dry as reading the newspaper? You know it happens. It happens to all of us.
The Word of God is HIS love letter to us. If you have a question pray about it. If you feel a conviction, read and pray about it. If THAT is not enough then you will be pulled down.

I have learned NOT to trust man, but to put my full trust in HIM.

Good point! Gotta admit!
 
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The Word of God is HIS love letter to us. If you have a question pray about it. If you feel a conviction, read and pray about it. If THAT is not enough then you will be pulled down.

The presumption of that statement lies in the fact that anybody could think that God reveals all his ways to him/herself - it's prideful. The next logical step is that if someone disagrees with you, that person has obviously not done his homework with God like I have.

The New Testament makes it clear that Christianity is done in community, with believers you trust and can grow with. That's really the point of going to church, right? I mean, why else if you can discern and comprehend all of God's truth by yourself in your quiet time?
 
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Plan 9

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1 Cor. 12:21-27 The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I do not need you,' or the head to the feet, 'I do not need you.' Quite the contrary: those parts of the body which seem to be more frail than others are indispensable, and those parts of the body which we regard as less honorable are treated with special honor. The parts we are modest about are treated with special respect, whereas our respectable parts have no such need. But God has combined the various parts of the body, giving special honour to the humbler parts, so that there might be no division in the body, but that all its parts might feel the same concern for one another. If one part suffers, all suffer together; if one flourishes, all rejoice together.

Now you are Christ's body, and each of you a limb or organ of it. 

 (REB)

__________

I love this passage, because before I was saved I was like a single eye rolling down the road. :eek: :rolleyes:   

 
 
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Susan

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Now to get this discussion started again:

Why do people follow these kind of teachers?

For me personally, it was because that was how I thought I was to serve God and grow as a Christian: by excluding as many things from my life as possible, by acting more and more pious, and "being a good example."

For others, it's things like wanting structure in life, being raised in such an environment, whatever.
 
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