So who did Christ die for?

"Scripture? "

so you think the sins of all are forgiven? Try looking in hebrews '

Athelon, look at the WHOLE verse. Not all are saved. Thus Christ didn't die for all. You have to CALL on him first. If you wanna be a calvinist about it, who motivates a person to call? God alone. Thus Christ died for christians, and only the christians.

Dear Andew,

Do you therefore say that you yourself have enough good in you that you would choose God over sin? That would be a boast, and not only that but blasphemous. God's will is not effected by any positive volition on the part of man. Do not fool yourself and others by thinking that God is not fair and just because He choses some and not others. HE IS GOD. He is fair in all his decisions. "Whosoever" refers to those who have been predestained by God, for only the Elect will call on the Lord. Not by our own positive volition but by God's miraculous grace and unconditional election.
Delighitng in the fact that God chose me, not I that chose Him. (Because I can't),
Calvinist
"God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." -John Piper

Come on Louis,

dont side step the issue, chapter and verse please, that Christ's blood wld be wasted if he had died for all sinners.

Dear Calvinist,

"Do you therefore say that you yourself have enough good in you that you would choose God over sin?"

No, but dont see your pt, what's that gotta do with Christ having died for all sinners/men, or the pt abt his blood being wasted.

Also, the verse Julie and I presented is very clear. How do you reconcile that? Pls answer this question first b4 moving on to something else or we are not gonna get anywhere.

It clearly says "Christ came to save sinners" that wld be ALL men, unless you believe only some men are sinners or that only certain classes of sinners. So do you believe that? And pls dont add to this verse by saying "oh, it is actually Christ came to save some sinners". If a restaurant sign says "blacks welcome" you're not gonna tell the manager who wrote the sign that he means some blacks only, are you?

From the amazing book Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed.

...let us repeat that the sacrifice on Calvary was a propitation not only for the representative sin of the race but for the personal sins of all members of the race: "He is the propitation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world" (1 John 2.2). "He hath washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Apoc 1.5). But whereas the redemption of the race was entirely His work and therefore wholly achieved, the salvation of the individual depends upon our cooperation with His work, and some of us may fail. This is the reason for the variation of phrasing in Scripture-Christ being said at one time to have died for all and at another time to have died for some-which at first seems puzzling. the first phrase means He excluded none from the reach of the sacrifice, the second that some have excluded themselves and so are not reached by it. "Being consummated, he became, to all that obey Him, the cause of eternal salvation" (Heb. 5.9). But nothing must dim our realization of the truth that He died for all without exception...

Christ died for all. "But though He died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His Passion is communicated" (Council of Trent VI:2). Salvation depends upon our receiving the supernatural life by which we become sons of God and having this life in our souls when we die. Christ merited it for all. But, as we have already seen, we do not receive it automatically merely by being born..., but by being re-born in Christ, made one with Him in such a way that we are restored.

Click to expand...

God Bless,

Neal

Christ died paying the price for all sin. The issue is whether or not that payment is applied to the account. This is done by faith. Without faith the sin goes unpaid. Christ was the ransom for all.
Remember the unpardonable sin is not paid, and that is rejecting salvation.

"dont side step the issue, chapter and verse please, that Christ's blood wld be wasted if he had died for all sinners.
"

I'll give you a hint seemingly you don't like to read much. Chapter 6. So let me ask you. If Christ died for all sins, they you say they (as closer put it) do not apply it to their account, you don't consider that waisted? Waisted usually means not used. Are you just being stubborn and not wanted to admit you're wrong drew?

If one is working the water table at a marathon and only one runner needs water at that time was the water wasted. No. The water met the need for that person and gave the opportunity to all to meet that same need.
If Christ died and his blood was poured out for all to have the opprotunity and only one took it was that blood wasted. No because the one who had the need recognized the need and accepted the remedy was saved. All have the opportunity. Only some are, using this in a neutral sense, elected to accept. Is the blood wasted? No because without the blood not one could be saved. Let's not forget attonement is limited to the unpardonable and that still is the rejection of salvation. Therefore if all of man's sin is covered and that one still remains the blood was not wasted and the lost are still lost.

AMEN ishinwat.

Louis you gave the chapter, but which book and which verse? Come on. And while we wait I'll post this....


B. JOHN CALVIN HIMSELF MODIFIED HIS POSITION AND OPPOSED HIS OWN FORMER TEACHING OF "LIMITED ATONEMENT" IN FAVOR FINALLY OF AN "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT."

We have saved one of the most powerful witnesses until last, namely, JOHN CALVIN HIMSELF. Yes, John Calvin himself, as we will see, is his own most convincing witness AGAINST HIS OWN FORMER ERROR of "LIMITED ATONEMENT" and in FAVOR finally of "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT."

1. Some "LIMITED ATONEMENT" Fanatics Disagree That Calvin, In These Quotes Favored "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT."

I was very much surprised to receive a long, long letter from a very devoted "LIMITED ATONEMENT" man a few weeks ago, who told me that I had misinterpreted John Calvin in the quotations that I will be using here. He interpreted Calvin's words in a "LIMITED ATONEMENT" sense which he claims is the way ALL "LIMITED ATONEMENT" people understood them. Read his quotations very carefully, and see if there can be any doubt whatsoever, unless people are "WRITING OUT OF BOTH SIDE OF THEIR PEN"!!

2. Dr. John R. Rice Quoted August H. Strong On Calvin's MODIFICATION OF HIS VIEWS."

Though I to not concur in everything Rice writes on a number of subjects, yet, as I was reading his book, PREDESTINED FOR HELL? NO! [1958 and 1977] (pp. 11-12), I noted an interesting lead. Rice wrote: However, it is fair to say that CALVIN IS THOUGHT TO HAVE MODIFIED HIS VIEWS SOMEWHAT THROUGH THE YEARS. Dr. Augustus H. Strong, in his standard Systematic Theology Vol. II, Doctrine of Salvation, page 778, quotes CALVIN'S LATER COMMENTS to prove this, as follows:...(op.cit. p. 12). Part of Rice's quotation from Strong was a follows:

The progress in Calvin's thought may be seen by comparing some of his earlier with his later utterances. . . . IN LATER DAYS Calvin wrote in his Commentary on 1 John 2:2--"he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world"--as follows: "CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. and in the goodness of God is OFFERED UNTO ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION, HIS BLOOD BEING SHED NOT FOR A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT FOR THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet he HOLDS OUT THE PROPITIATION TO THE WHOLE WORLD, since without exception he SUMMONS ALL TO THE FAITH OF CHRIST, which is nothing else than the door unto hope." (Rice, op. cit., p.12). Let it be very plainly stated: Calvin himself here repudiates "LIMITED ATONEMENT" and affirms an "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT"!! And everyone of his "followers" should do likewise!! No amount of semantical gymnastics can twist the clear meaning of Calvin's words quoted above into anything else but that!!

3. John Calvin Witnesses For "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" In His Commentary On Mark 14:24.

Mark 14:24 states in English (KJV): And He said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, WHICH IS SHED FOR MANY. (Mark l4:24). Here is the comment that John Calvin made on Mark 14:24, as translated and published in the Harmony of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Volume III, p. 139 [as published by Eerdmans in Grand Rapids, 1972]:

"The word many DOES NOT MEAN A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE: he contrasts many with one as if to say that he would not be the Redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. No doubt that in speaking to a few Christ wished to make His teaching available to a larger number...So when we come to the holy table not only should the general idea come to our mind that THE WORLD IS REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST but also each should reckon to himself that his own sins are covered. (op. cit., p. 139).

In this passage, John Calvin clearly and unmistakably affirms his belief in the "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" of the Lord Jesus Christ who "SHED" His blood for "THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE" with the result that it can be said that "THE WORLD IS REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." What could be clearer? John Calvin by no means took the "Fifth Amendment" on this verse! In fact, where many of his "LIMITED ATONEMENT" followers use the "many" to try to force a "LIMITED ATONEMENT" into that word, John Calvin broadened it out in an "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" sense as it should be broadened by way of contrast with a "few."

4. .John Calvin Witnesses for "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" In His Commentary On Romans 5:18:

Romans 5:18 states in English (KJV): Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:18) Calvin's comment on Romans 5:18, as translated and published in the COMMENTARY ON ROMANS AND THESSALONIANS, 1973, pp. 117-18 [as published by Eerdmans in Grand Rapids] was: "Paul makes grace COMMON TO ALL MEN, not because it in fact EXTENDS TO ALL, but because IT IS OFFERED TO ALL. Although CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. AND IS OFFERED BY THE GOODNESS OF GOD WITHOUT DISTINCTION TO ALL MEN, yet not all receive him (op. cit., p. 829). If indeed Christ "SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD," John Calvin was himself (at least at the time of his writing this Commentary on Romans) a confirmed believer, as is the BIBLE FOR TODAY, in an "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" of the Lord Jesus Christ! Any self-respecting friend of John Calvin presently holding the unscriptural and anti-Scriptural error of "LIMITED ATONEMENT," should immediately get rid of it--If only in deference to their friend! A BETTER reason, however, for getting rid of it, would be because it is unbiblical!

5. John Calvin Witnesses For "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" In His Last Will, And Farewells

Calvin's "LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, April 25, 1564" as printed in the History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8, pp. 828-29, by Philip Schaff [as published by Eerdmans in Grand Rapids, 1972], states: "I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat...."(op. cit., p 829). Here is a clear testimony made by John Calvin who was about to die, in 1564, that He, at least at the end of his life, had come to believe most definitely that the Lord Jesus Christ "SHED" his precious "BLOOD" "FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE "

This is, in very essence, an "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" for which we have been speaking, writing, and arguing these many months [28 to be exact]. Again, let me urge every follower of John Calvin, because of the biblical truth of his position, to JOIN HIM in this sound belief in the "UNLIMITED ATONEMENT" that is, that the Lord Jesus Christ "HAS SHED" His blood "FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE"!! Notice that in these words, John Calvin, however, seemed to be in DOUBT of HIS SALVATION! Thus he sounded like he no longer was certain, for himself, at least in the "perseverance of the saints." This is a rather SAD statement, I believe, for Calvin himself to make on his death bed!


more at

http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn4.htm

YOu still didn't answer my question. What do you think waisted means? I think it means usued. Christ's sacrfice is not used. it was only christians. We can start somewhere else. What was the purpose of christ's sacrifice?

Louis,

You've got to gimme chapter and verse first, that says Christ's blood would be wasted if he had died for those who wld never believe. With that, I can read in context myself, look up the Greek and tell you what "wasted blood" means.

Still waiting Louis, for chapter and verse that Christ's blood is wasted if he had shed it for all men. I take it there are none? Perhaps someone else here can gimme the scripture proof regarding blood wastage.

BTW Heb 6 does not say anything about this.

Athlon,

Whosoever will doesn't mean all. One doesn't call on the name of the Lord without reason. WHY we call on the Lord limits the 'whosoever will' to those with a reason to trust Him.

Now ALL have a reason to trust Him, i am sure we agree, for he is immensely trustworthy. BUT satan has blinded the minds of those perishing so that they WILL NOT trust Him. They don't want to cede their lives to Him. They think the gospel foolishness. They don't believe Jesus rose from the dead [if they even heard of Him], much less died for them. Their minds are natural minds and unable to accept the things of the Spirit. In short, they never WILL be of the WHOSOEVER WILL!

But you i gather have trusted Him. Your mind is not blinded to His truth. You don't think the gospel foolishness, but rather you think it is the power of God unto salvation. You percieve the spiritual realities and appreciate the work of Christ with humbleness and an open heart. You believe without tangible proof that Jesus was the Son of God and that He did die for you and that He did rise from the dead. Do you not?

So I ask you, WHY did you believe these things? [Jesus is God, and died for you and rose from the dead, the gospel is the power of God and not foolishness, that God is indeed trustworthy] WHY did you?

"Still waiting Louis, for chapter and verse that Christ's blood is wasted if he had shed it for all men"

Again, I have to have what you think waisted is before we can go on. So can you please give me a definition of it?

Exactly MJ. There are conditions.

Louis,
its obvious you lack any scripture proof that Christ blood wld be wasted if it was shed for all men. So until you back it up with scripture, this is my last post.



"Whosoever will doesn't mean all."

yeah and some doesnt mean some, and he doesnt he, and we doesnt mean we, and I doesnt mean I ........

Andrew,

I'm suprised at you.

Are you an universalist and think ALL will call on Him?
No?

Then you agree that not ALL will call.

But aren't you then falsely portraying me as fudging the simple meanings of words: yeah and some doesnt mean some, and he doesnt he, and we doesnt mean we, and I doesnt mean I ........

I didn't say that all could not call if they all willed. I said that all do not will to call. I said that only those who will to call will in fact call. Yet you think I twist definitions?

I am suprised by your thinking.

mike

Andrew,
RE: my post #112

Will you also please answer those questions for me?

Now ALL have a reason to trust Him, i am sure we agree, for he is immensely trustworthy. BUT satan has blinded the minds of those perishing so that they WILL NOT trust Him. They don't want to cede their lives to Him. They think the gospel foolishness. They don't believe Jesus rose from the dead [if they even heard of Him], much less died for them. Their minds are natural minds and unable to accept the things of the Spirit. In short, they never WILL be of the WHOSOEVER WILL!

But you i gather have trusted Him. Your mind is not blinded to His truth. You don't think the gospel foolishness, but rather you think it is the power of God unto salvation. You percieve the spiritual realities and appreciate the work of Christ with humbleness and an open heart. You believe without tangible proof that Jesus was the Son of God and that He did die for you and that He did rise from the dead. Do you not?

So I ask you, WHY did you believe these things? [Jesus is God, and died for you and rose from the dead, the gospel is the power of God and not foolishness, that God is indeed trustworthy] WHY did you?

Thanks,
mike

I have a simple idea. Let's look at John 3:16. The key word is world. This word cannot mean the elect. This word is used in the whole Bible as meaning universal. That means that Christ was sent to die for the whole world. There is no sound exegetical study that can dispute this fact based on this verse. The only way to do it is to place God in ones systematic view instead of the verse's Biblical context. That means what we think superceedes what God has said.
Secondly John 3:17 tells us that Christ died so that the world might be saved. If this was a reference to the elect it should state that the world would be saved. It also eliminates a univeralist view of salvation. If the world might be saved and God is all knowing which he is it shows some won't be saved. Therefore in context with the rest of scripture Jesus died to pay for all.
To deal with this wasted blood. The blood is wasted if one does not put it towards their account. The wasted opprotunity places God's wrath upon there heads. The blood paid for all, all don't accept, provision is made, provision is not accepted the provision on an individual basis is wasted.
Still on a global scale the blood is not wasted. If one accepts then the blood was required and it did not go to waste. This doesn' t harmonize it just explains the concept from two differnt vantage points.

Dear closer,

you said: I have a simple idea. Let's look at John 3:16. The key word is world. This word cannot mean the elect. This word is used in the whole Bible as meaning universal.

If you mean by universal, everybody who ever lived and breathed, then you show yourself a poor student of the Bible.

Look at John 12:19. Do you think the one who said that meant every one who had already died, was now living and those not yet born was part of the 'world' he was talking about? Do you even suppose he meant every person then alive? Or every person in Israel? Or even every person in his own town? [Was he following after Jesus do yo think?]

Many times the word 'world' means the planet earth and is only speaking generally of the people, not individually specific. You interpret it to be individually specific because your doctrine demands it to be interped that way, not because the text, ot the Bible as a whole does..

There were many people who died without knowing about Jesus. God provides no way for the gospel to save these people. Paul calls them without God and without hope [Eph 2:11-12]

you said: To deal with this wasted blood. The blood is wasted if one does not put it towards their account. The wasted opprotunity places God's wrath upon there heads. The blood paid for all, all don't accept, provision is made, provision is not accepted the provision on an individual basis is wasted.

Without directly commenting on whether blood was wasted or not, I can tell you that your explanation is in adeqaute on two points.
1] First all don't hear about the blood. Millions upon millions have died and will die without hearing about the blood and hence being able to reject it.
2] God does not place any wrath on someone's head because they wasted their opportunity, or wasred the blood. Read John 3: 17 God did not send His Son into the world to condemn. Neither does man need to reject Jesus to be condemned, for each man is already condemned for violating their own conscience and treating others badly and not like how they themselves would want to be treated.

Man is condemned for his own sin, by his own choices. Man is saved because God has mercy on the individual and saves the person despite their sins. You do still sin don't you?

Are you going to give all the glory to God for saving you, or will you persist in usurping His rightful glory and boast in your own righteous choices?

Why did you accept and the others refuse? Where will your boast be, in you or in God?

mike

Surprised Mike?

Well...

I'm surprised you are surprised that Christ loved us all and died for all sinners.
I'm surprised you'd limit the work of Jesus by believing limited atonement.
I'm surprised you imply God is stingy by saying that his blood wld be wasted if he had shed it for all men.

Sorry, dont buy this elitist doctrine one bit.

You can twist and stretch your "all" and "some" all you want to mean what you want, but the facts are clear -- Christ died for sinners and if you believe all men have sinned, then He died for all men.