Water Baptism - Is It Really Necessary?

GenemZ · Sep 12, 2006

sawdust said:
I rather wondered if he didn't respond to your post of 607 is because he saw as many flaws in your reasoning as I did?

I thought about responding myself but then I realised how many scriptures I would have to cover just to correct some basic presumptions on your part that I thought "is it really worth my time and effort?"

Thank you. Exactly why. But, it had to come from someone else, not me.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

BroGinder · Sep 13, 2006

Schroeder said:
the problem is when Christ repeatedly says to BELIEVE in me and be saved and then people saying he says to believe PLUS get water baptized to be saved. when we know from JTB that Christ would baptize with the Spirit. SOO the onbly way it could NOT contradict is to say when he says to believe in me and be saved and says to believe and be baptized he MUST be refering to His baptism because it is easy to believe(yet not except Him) and be water baptized but you could not at all believe(but not except Him) and be Spirit baptized. And scriptures says when we BELIEVE we will be given the SPirit then it says or interpreted to say when we repent and get water baptized then we receive the Spirit, even thopugh scripture says we cant do anything righteous to be saved NOR can we please God without the SPirit in us. SOO this has been the arguement here.
quote]

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

Belief is not enough to be saved, the Devils believe in one God and tremble at his name. Jesus was Baptised by JTB, he said to set the example.

Matt 3:13-16
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
KJV

Acts 16:31-33
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
KJV

They spoke to them the word of the Lord. Which lead them to being baptized.

However, none scripture is clearer than John 3:5

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV

I am truly enjoying this reasoning together. Hope this is as healthy for you as it is for me. What am I interupting incorrectly? I feel I am reading it word for word and in context.

sawdust · Sep 13, 2006

BroGinder said:
Belief is not enough to be saved, the Devils believe in one God and tremble at his name. Jesus was Baptised by JTB, he said to set the example.

Matt 3:13-16
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
KJV

Acts 16:31-33
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
KJV

They spoke to them the word of the Lord. Which lead them to being baptized.

However, none scripture is clearer than John 3:5

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV

I am truly enjoying this reasoning together. Hope this is as healthy for you as it is for me. What am I interupting incorrectly? I feel I am reading it word for word and in context.

The bit I have bolded is the main bit I wish to discuss for I hear people say that Jesus' batptism set an example for us. Now I confess I have never really understood why Jesus had to be baptised. And it would seem that is not unreasonable because even John queried this. But Jesus response was never so that it would be an example. Not once (as best I can tell) does it even remotely hint that it was an example to us in any of the Gospels.

Jesus' own explanation was that it would fulfill all righteousness. I still don't know why He said that because I really don't understand how His baptism did that. Afterall, it can't be talking about His own righteousness, can it?

Apart from all that, the simple reality is Jesus explained His reason for being baptised was "to fulfill all righteousness". To then turn around and say it set us an example is, I think, presumptuous or at least it is going further than the text declares.

Now sir, if I may speak freely a moment and ask you to follow along with my reasoning, that would be appreciated.

Here is Jesus being baptised and by His own mouth He says it fulfills all righteousness. So I ask "what does that mean?" Answer - I don't have a clue. So then I ask "where, what and how else did Christ fulfill something?" What comes to me is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matt.5:17

So I say aha! Is this what you mean Lord? Is the same principle at work here?

Now I'm not saying my reasoning is correct but if I'm even remotely close it would lead to the same result regarding water baptism as it does in regards to the Law.

Now Paul said:
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Rom.6:14

Therefore the conclusion would be, it is longer necessary to water baptise because you are baptised in the Spirit.

I'm open for comment/correction.

peace

GenemZ · Sep 13, 2006

sawdust said:
The bit I have bolded is the main bit I wish to discuss for I hear people say that Jesus' batptism set an example for us. Now I confess I have never really understood why Jesus had to be baptised. And it would seem that is not unreasonable because even John queried this. But Jesus response was never so that it would be an example. Not once (as best I can tell) does it even remotely hint that it was an example to us in any of the Gospels.

He was being baptized into his ministry at that point in time. That is why he needed to be tested first in the wilderness. From then on he went out preaching...

But, I just found something new will sitting in Church tonight. Came back home. Looked up what I suspected was true. And then verified what ran through my mind as I sat there.....

How can the following be about water baptism?

Acts 16:33 (New International Version)

"At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized."

The KJV says, "straightway" in the old English. But, it is saying that the jailer and his family were immediately baptized all together.

What was Paul?

A giant octopus?

Able to water baptize them all at the same moment? Instantly?

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

1. Immediately

parachrema lit., "with the matter (or business) itself" (para, "with," chrema, "a business," or "event"), and so, "immediately," Matt_21:19 (AV, "presently"), Matt. 20; Luke_1:64; Luke_4:39; Luke_5:25; Luke_8:44,47,55; Luke_13:13; Luke_18:43; Luke_19:11; Luke_22:60; Acts_3:7; Acts_5:10; Acts_12:23; Acts_13:11; Acts_16:26,33; it is thus used by Luke only, save for the two instances in Matthew. See FORTHWITH. It is also rendered "presently," soon," "straightway."

This is how parachrema is applied in Scripture elsewhere...

Luke 8:47 (New International Version)

"Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed."

And....

Acts 3:7 (New International Version)

"Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong."

And.....

Acts 5:10 (New International Version)

"At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband."

And....

Acts 12:23 (New International Version)

"Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died."

Now?

How could the jailer and his family all be immediately baptized? Yet, when Peter spoke to a large crowd? They were all speaking in tongues while yet listening to him speak! Baptized in the Spirit! He commanded erroneously for the water to be included afterwards!

Luke 1:64 rsv

"And immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue loosed, and he spoke, blessing God."

Pretty quick! Huh?

Now that we see what the Greek word parachrema is to indicate? How can the following passage mean water baptism?

Acts 16:33 (New International Version)

"At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized."

So? It was to be?

POOF! And, they were all water baptized?!

Luke 1:64 rsv

"And immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue loosed, and he spoke, blessing God."

I must say, this thought came to me immediately after reading a verse at Church tonight.....

As we well know that there is nothing in God's Word that can not be resisted. But, I do not expect an immediate response against this word usage example.

No instant response, anyway.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

winsome · Sep 13, 2006

genez

You have a history of ignoring refutation to your arguments right from the beginning of this debate.

In post #284 I quoted your comment

genez said:
Then? It should be easy for you to show us in Acts where anyone else who was baptized, that it was in water after the time Peter mentions recalling the words of the Lord. It should be quite simple for you to do. Since it was mentioned quite often before he had the recall and easy to find.

And I said

winsome said:
Genez,
I did exactly that in post #279, but you chose to ignore it. I have spent a lot of time on this thread but I have come to the conclusion that you simply do not want to engage in a real debate.

You use three tactics to avoid this:

1. You fail to respond to the main point of an argument, but pick out a small point and respond to that. For example, after being challenged by you and to show where scripture shows that animal sacrifices are condemned, I and heymikey80, did just that.
I then finished two posts:
Now you show me where scripture says that baptism in water is no longer necessary.
But you didn't. You just ducked it by focussing on the word condemn. You are just playing with words and not engaging the issues.

2. You just ignore arguments.

3. You just recylce old argument. You make a point to which I or someone else responds, showing it is false. You make no reply, but 20,20 or 40 posts later you just recycle your old argument as though a response had never been made.

I have therefore concluded I am wasting my time trying to proceed any further and will leave you to continue down your blind alley.

However later I re-entered the debate and in posts #479 and #483 gave extensive refutation of your points. You ignored them and when challenged you said

genez said:
[FONT=&quot]Because I found your posts all over the place, and filled with conjecture. It was just all over the place, and too much confusion to untangle... I saw nothing you said that warranted seeing it as a solid rebuttal of what I said. So? Why waste the energy?[/FONT]

I do not claim to be a model of clarity, but I think your comments are just a thin excuse not to respond.
So I then said

winsome said:
You mean you haven't got a reply to what I said. You specialise in ducking responses you can't answer.

But fair enough. If you don't want to respond to my posts I won't respond to yours.

A debate where one person fails to respond is not a debate

However in post #602 you invited me to respond by saying

genez said:
[FONT=&quot]Winsome? You need not respond to me. But, this point I will not let go by.[/FONT]

To which I made a point by point reply. But again you refuse to respond to my points preferring to attack me personally rather than my arguments.

genez said:
[FONT=&quot]Because you're doctrinally challenged. If someone reveals that he does not have a sense of smell? Do you keep trying to offer different flowers to try? Until he uses up all your time and flower bed? No.... You move on. Like I chose to do. For, in the past, its mind sets just like yours. That when I continued with, I end up with me receiving warnings.
I think that could at this time be your only goal here. I will not bite. Take your worm home. [/FONT]

Peace be with you genez, and as I am going on holiday in a few days I will leave it to others to respond to your discredited arguments.

BroGinder · Sep 13, 2006

The Word of God is sharper than any two sided sword. It is imperative we weild our sword with compassion as Jesus weilded his Word in such a fashion. Jesus came to convict not condem, there for the Word was designed to convict not condem.

I appreciate the Christian (Christ Like) approach that is being displayed by the majority of the posters in this thread. I am not tossing stones, or accusing anyone of being harsh, but the Word says Jesus is Love. Therefore his Word is Love and must be used in such a fashion. Only stated for self reflection, if it applies govern yourself accordingly and Praise the Lord. If not Praise the Lord.

I have kept the scripture I have called upon to a minimum as to not be to long winded on the subject. However, I feel now is the time to discuss what I feel is Biblical Directive for reproof. Doing so 1 of 2 thigns can occur. #1 The posting participants learn nothing more than where they were (Gods Word will not come back void, someone will gain) #2 One of the Particpating posters will be brought into the Truth by the Spirit of Truth. Paise God.

The emphasis on baptism can not be over looked. It was commanded by Jesus to his disciples as a universal requirement for inclusion in the spiritual kingdom of God. As such, it is not optional but absolutley essential. Baptism was performed exclusively by immersion in water, and is adminstered in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

The Church is obligation is to go into all the world to teach all nations and to preach the gospel to every individual. Its ministers are just as obligated to baptize their converts as they are to go and preach. That the early Church accepted and understood this obligation is seen from the fact that baptism is called the "Principles" of the doctrine of Christ.

Heb 6:1-2
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
KJV

The believer is obligated through scripture as well.
Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

If a man fully believes and accepts the messafe that the church preaches he will be baptized. When the Samaritains beluieved Philip's preaching concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized.
Acts 8:12-13
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
KJV

The act of Baptism means more than just aan outward cleansing. It is not just putting away the filth, or dirt, of the flesh, but is the answer of a good conscience toward God. When we understand what baptism accomplishes, then we understand just why it is needed.
1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV

Water Baptism is is part of the process by which man is born into or made part of, the kindom of God.
Rom 14:17
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
KJV
Col 1:13-14
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
KJV
Luke 16:16
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
KJV

It is not by water alone, or by Spirit alone but both elements are needed to effect the new birth.

Baptism is not only a birth but it is a burial.
Rom 6:4
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV

In repentance we identify ourselves with the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. In Baptism we identify ourselves with the burial.

1 Cor 15:1-4
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
KJV

1 Peter 3:20
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

1 Cor 10:1-4
10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
KJV

1 Cor 10:6
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
KJV

Going back into the Old Testament we find that the proest were commanded to "Wash with Water, that they die not"
Ex 30:20
20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
KJV

Luke 5:14
14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJV

Lev 14:4
4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
KJV

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
KJV

I offer this long winded experssion of my understanding of the Word. I hope it helps to clarify for you why baptism is not an option but a requirement. I look forward to your responses.

GenemZ · Sep 13, 2006

BroGinder said:
The emphasis on baptism can not be over looked. It was commanded by Jesus to his disciples as a universal requirement for inclusion in the spiritual kingdom of God. As such, it is not optional but absolutley essential. Baptism was performed exclusively by immersion in water, and is adminstered in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Problem is..... all the points you are now bringing up were all covered extensively throughout this thread. But, since you are entering now, might as well hit a point to explain what you are presenting.

The Church is obligation is to go into all the world to teach all nations and to preach the gospel to every individual. Its ministers are just as obligated to baptize their converts as they are to go and preach. That the early Church accepted and understood this obligation is seen from the fact that baptism is called the "Principles" of the doctrine of Christ

.

Jesus had told them something about baptism days before he gave that command. Something that John the Baptist used to say, also.

Matthew 3:11 niv
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Mark 1:8 niv

I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Why do you think John the Baptist said that? You ever ask why? What was John telling the people? Doesn't anybody read these things and see what it says?

And, right after his resurrection while sitting at dinner with his disciples Jesus told them the same thing, again!

Acts 1:5 niv

"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

Why tell them this? Because they did not know what was about to happen. Why did they not know? They were running in circles of awe and joy after seeing the LORD resurrected. They were not concentrating. It was years later that the Gospels and Acts was finally written. By then, they had learned and understood what they failed to in the beginning. They recorded what happened, mistakes and all.

Heb 6:1-2
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.KJV

Notice? Baptisms? Plural?

Matthew 3:11 niv

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

In that one passage three different baptisms are mentioned.

To some here? The only baptism is water.

That is the problem we are having. They see the word "baptism," and jump to think it only pertains to only water!

The believer is obligated through scripture as well.
Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

Yes! Those who believe, will be baptized with the Spirit!

1 Corinthians 12:13
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

That never happened before the Church age! They had no idea what he was talking about at that time. They too, thought "water" when they heard the word baptize mentioned by the Lord! For that's all they used to do before the Church age began. And, were supposed to do according to Jewish custom!

John 4:1-2 (New International Version)
"The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples."

To the Apostles, water baptizing had become a way of life! They had become so busy with water baptism that they had more than John the Baptist being water baptized! Are you picturing that? Do you see what was going on? Peter and the others were water baptizing Jews who followed Christ in great numbers! This was BEFORE the church age had begun. So? When they heard the word "baptism?" They automatically thought water!

If a man fully believes and accepts the messafe that the church preaches he will be baptized. When the Samaritains beluieved Philip's preaching concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized.
Acts 8:12-13

And, they were still thinking the same old way!

I remember when we had new students in high school who had just come out of Catholic school. When answering a question in class, they would stand up at their desk and answer to the teacher.

We used to chuckle at this. But this is what they had always done in Catholic school. They were still doing automatically what they did in the other system!

Likewise, the disciples kept water baptizing and gave it no thought. It was what they always had been doing!

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
KJV

Still, it was the same situation. It did not come to an end until Peter FINALLY recalled what they had been told earlier. Up until then, they continued to water baptize.

Acts 11:16 niv
"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

That was finally realized in the 11th chapter!

That could have been a few years passing from when Jesus told them what was to be, in Acts 1:5!

"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV

By then, Peter was saying it was not about water.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (New International Version)
"who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. "

We see the word water, but many fail to see what it says about water! This is where the warning about rightly dividing the Word, comes in!

Noah was NOT baptized into water! Just the OPPOSITE! The water (which did not touch him) raised him up ABOVE what was to be destroyed by God.

Please? Are you getting that?

The water raised Noah up to safety! He was not baptized in water!

Likewise, when we are baptized with the Spirit we are saved by the resurrection of Christ, who is now seated ABOVE what is to be destroyed! We are saved by this baptism! We have been RAISED UP!

How's that, you ask?

Ephesians 2:6 (New International Version)
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus."

This is the baptism that SAVES! It raised us up, just like the water raised up Noah above what was to be destroyed! We are now seating in heaven with Christ, IN HIM!

1 Corinthians 12:13 niv
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Just as Eve was hidden in Adam's body while he was yet alone? So are we with Christ!

We are the Bride of Christ awaiting to be revealed as we shall be!

Just as Eve was bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh? We are now IN CHRIST awaiting to receive our resurrection bodies which will be just like his own!

Just like Jesus broke a few loaves to feed the thousands, he will create for us new bodies from his own substance! This IS THE BAPTISM THAT SAVED US! Baptized with the Spirit INTO the Body of Christ! We have been RAISED UP ABOVE what is to be destroyed. Just like the water of Noah 'symbolizes' the baptism we now received at salvation!

"In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also."

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV

OK, last one.

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again?

When was that?

During the Church age?

NO!

John 7:38-39 (New International Version)
"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

That did not happen until after the Cross!

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not given when Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again. That was only to come later! After Jesus ascended and was glorified.

So? Nicodemus was to be water baptized at that time.

Just like every other Jew at that time was doing when they believed in the coming Messiah. Jesus was telling Nicodemus not how a Church age believer gets saved. But, how a Jew would get saved, at that time!

John the Baptist was baptizing all the believing Jews at that time! Nicodemus was a Jew! He was to be water baptized like all the Jews at that time were if he were to be born again.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

BroGinder · Sep 13, 2006

The informing of them being baptised in the Spirit had to do with just that. Until Jesus ascended this Spirit walked among them. So he was preparing them for this experience. However Matthew covers both of the baptisms are necessary for salvation.

John 16:7
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
KJV

The devils believe in one God and tremble at his name, yet they will not enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Schroeder · Sep 13, 2006

BroGinder said:
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

Belief is not enough to be saved, the Devils believe in one God and tremble at his name. Jesus was Baptised by JTB, he said to set the example.

this is obviouse. but scriptuire explains the BELIEF needed. we are not generalising the word as you. when we say BELIEF we believe you understand what we mean. IN that it is ACCEPTING him into your heart. something the devils dont do. the belief FAITH mentioned in Rom 10:8-10. this is the FAITH(belief) we are teaching. notice no mention of water.

Matt 3:13-16
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
KJV

this doesnt quite mention what you say or think. he came to fulfil all righteousness. "all righteousness" was the old testement prophecies. He says nothing of doing this because i did it. ifyou go by this you ould have to foolow all he did which included obeying the LAW. having passover instead of communion, because that is what it was, and he NEVER said it was a new passover meal to be turned into communion.

Acts 16:31-33
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
KJV

this again does not say it was for anything to do with being saved. otherwise it would read and the spoke the truth and they believed and were baptism THUS saved. Peter says the same thing in acts 10:43. anyone who BELIEVES in him RECEIVES FORGIVENESSS OF SINS. acts 15:8 shows God saw there hearts and gave them the SPirit. without water baptism. which goes with gal 3:2, 14, which goes with eph 1:13-14, which if you read rom 10:4,8-13
They spoke to them the word of the Lord. Which lead them to being baptized.

However, none scripture is clearer than John 3:5

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV

write out the whole passage. you seem to be cherry picking scripture. verse 3 says FROM ABOVE, you were not water baptized from above. but you were SPirit baptized from above. verse 8 says it again SO it is with everyone BORN OF THE SPIRIT. NOTICE again no mention of water. SO verse 5 must mean he was speaking of natural flesh birth(so mentioned in the NEXT verse) or as some translations say born of water EVEN the SPirit. water is OFTEN refered or references the SPirit. ESSPECIALLY in the OLD testement which nico SHOULD know. which is why maybe he says in verse 10 you are a teacher yet you dont know this.

I am truly enjoying this reasoning together. Hope this is as healthy for you as it is for me. What am I interupting incorrectly? I feel I am reading it word for word and in context.

me to. most all about baptism and its use. the insistence of making the word baptism mean only WATER baptism. the use of it by Christ in Luke should let us know it does not mean only water baptism. as the use of it in 1 cor 12:13.

Schroeder · Sep 13, 2006

BroGinder said:
The Word of God is sharper than any two sided sword. It is imperative we weild our sword with compassion as Jesus weilded his Word in such a fashion. Jesus came to convict not condem, there for the Word was designed to convict not condem.

I appreciate the Christian (Christ Like) approach that is being displayed by the majority of the posters in this thread. I am not tossing stones, or accusing anyone of being harsh, but the Word says Jesus is Love. Therefore his Word is Love and must be used in such a fashion. Only stated for self reflection, if it applies govern yourself accordingly and Praise the Lord. If not Praise the Lord.

I have kept the scripture I have called upon to a minimum as to not be to long winded on the subject. However, I feel now is the time to discuss what I feel is Biblical Directive for reproof. Doing so 1 of 2 thigns can occur. #1 The posting participants learn nothing more than where they were (Gods Word will not come back void, someone will gain) #2 One of the Particpating posters will be brought into the Truth by the Spirit of Truth. Paise God.

The emphasis on baptism can not be over looked. It was commanded by Jesus to his disciples as a universal requirement for inclusion in the spiritual kingdom of God. As such, it is not optional but absolutley essential. Baptism was performed exclusively by immersion in water, and is adminstered in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

show me sdripture that CLEARLY states it was a reguirement for inclusion in the spirtual kingdom of God. john 3:3 says that if we are BORN FROM ABOVE we will see the kingdom. eph 1:13-14 says when we BELIEVE we are marked with a seal the SPirit which is a quarantee of our inheritance. i bring these up because you said scripture does NOT contradict and explains itself. i will let you decide if they contradict or not. PETER said if we believe we will receive forgiveness of sins. acts 10:43. gal 3:2 says we got it when we believed what we heard. as does 3:14" so that by FAITH we might RECEIVE the promised SPIRIT.(note eph 1:13-14 says the same thing.

The Church is obligation is to go into all the world to teach all nations and to preach the gospel to every individual. Its ministers are just as obligated to baptize their converts as they are to go and preach. That the early Church accepted and understood this obligation is seen from the fact that baptism is called the "Principles" of the doctrine of Christ.

Heb 6:1-2
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
KJV

it says PRINCIPLES of the doctrine OF CHRIST. you distorted it a bit.
Paul speaks of this water baptism in 1 cor 1. it was for association not salvation. otherwise he would NOT have said he was GLAD he did not baptize. it was because he did not want people to say they followed HIM(paul) He wanted them to say they followed Christ.

The believer is obligated through scripture as well.
Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

read john 3:18 and mark 16:16 what is the ONLY difference. the word baptism. now read john 7:38-39. htis baptism was of HIS baptism the SPirit. which he did not speak of UNTILL he was glorified. you are saved if you believe in him and are baptized by him. verse 7 says these thing would happen after this happened(verse16). they were not water baptized before they did those things but they were SPIrit baptized.

If a man fully believes and accepts the messafe that the church preaches he will be baptized. When the Samaritains beluieved Philip's preaching concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized.
Acts 8:12-13
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
KJV

but was simon truelly saved, the rest of the story would suggest he wasnt. and JUST because they were baptized doesnt mean it was so they could get saved. it was to show association to Christ, sort of denounce there old ways.

The act of Baptism means more than just aan outward cleansing. It is not just putting away the filth, or dirt, of the flesh, but is the answer of a good conscience toward God. When we understand what baptism accomplishes, then we understand just why it is needed.
1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV

doesnt it say NOT the removal of dirt(as water baptism would do) BUT only the SPirit acts on the conscience. the wasters represent the FLOOD waters which washed away sin. GOd did that not man, it was his work. our work which Jesus said God says in john 6:228 is to believe in his son. that would be us building the ark, then GOds work The flood waters(spirit baptism) would come and wash away our sins. titus 3:5 says this.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV

Water Baptism is is part of the process by which man is born into or made part of, the kindom of God.
Rom 14:17
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
KJV

already discussed john 3:5 but what does or how does rom 14:17 got to do with water baptism. Jesus said we were to be BORN FROM ABOVE. man has no part or ability to do this part.

Col 1:13-14
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
KJV

says right here forgiveness through the Blood not water. we are joined to this blood through Christ through the SPirit.

It is not by water alone, or by Spirit alone but both elements are needed to effect the new birth.

Baptism is not only a birth but it is a burial.
Rom 6:4
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV

not water baptism it says when we are joined(immersed) INTO Christ we are joined into his death. So just as he was risen so are we. rom 8:11 tells us it was through the SPirit read it. by the way ROmans does not EVER speak about water baptism.

In repentance we identify ourselves with the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. In Baptism we identify ourselves with the burial.

there is no IDENTIFYING about it. we LITTERALE are joined with Christ through the baptism of the SPirit.

1 Cor 15:1-4
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
KJV

no mention of water baptism here.

1 Peter 3:20
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

THROUGH water. they were saved by having faith in God to build the ARK. heb 11:7 as in we are saved by believing in his son(the ark) as stated in john 6:29. Gods work was the flood as his work of the SPirit baptism that now saves us.

1 Cor 10:6
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
KJV

Going back into the Old Testament we find that the proest were commanded to "Wash with Water, that they die not"
Ex 30:20
20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
KJV

read in ezekiel 37:14. he said HE would but his spirit in them. that is being BORN FROM ABOVE. something Nico should have known. isaiah 12:3

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
KJV

well it does say AND by the SPirit. Titus 3:5 and 1 peter 1 shows this to be true that it was by the SPirit you were washed sanctified and justified.

I offer this long winded experssion of my understanding of the Word. I hope it helps to clarify for you why baptism is not an option but a requirement. I look forward to your responses.

hope i showed you have to see whether what you said about scripture NOT contradicting inteself is true OR if you might need to restudy what you say.

BroGinder · Sep 13, 2006

I can honestly see how one could come to some of the points that you make. I know that some of the scripture does not command the water experience only eludes to it. However, how do we get past the words "Except" or "AND" in John 3:5?

I do know this, on the day of judgement he will not pull out the New international version, or the King James Version he will pull out the original manuscript. It is my prayer the one that is right has been followed into all truth as the scripture provides guidance.

sawdust · Sep 13, 2006

BroGinder said:
I can honestly see how one could come to some of the points that you make. I know that some of the scripture does not command the water experience only eludes to it. However, how do we get past the words "Except" or "AND" in John 3:5?

It's not so much "getting past" them as it is accepting them within the correct time and framework of what the Lord was doing and how He was doing it. We are to appreciate it and leave it standing in it's own time frame so that we might move on to the new way of God's working. And it is a now a new way.

By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb.10:20

The Cross is the pivot of time with eternal consequences.

peace

IgnatiusOfAntioch · Sep 13, 2006

AnthonyE1778 said:
IWater Baptism - Is It Really Necessary?

Well, what did Jesus say?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

I'd tend to go along with the Lord on this, but if you'd like to argue with Him, I'm sure that you'll have your chance.

GenemZ · Sep 14, 2006

IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
Well, what did Jesus say?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of waterandtheSpirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

I'd tend to go along with the Lord on this, but if you'd like to argue with Him, I'm sure that you'll have your chance.

No one is arguing with God. But, some do argue with reason.

Nicodemus was told those words by Jesus before he went to the Cross.

Nicodemus needed to be born again, right then.

When Jesus spoke those words everyone was in the Jewish age. Under law and ritual.

Jesus told Nicodemus how to be born again, that day! He needed to be baptized with the Baptism of John. Water!

For the ritual of water baptism was yet actively in effect at that time! Jesus could not tell Nicodemus to receive the baptism of the Spirit. That will not come until later. Till after Jesus was ascended.

So? You are quoting what was to be the way to being saved at that given moment in time. It does no longer pertain to the Church age. No more than being circumcised is commanded for all who believe today.

John 7:37-39 (New International Version)
"On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

Until Jesus was glorified, and the Spirit could be given? The way for salvation was to include ritual water baptism.

Once Jesus was glorified? Then a new era was to begin. The old was to be replaced with the new.

Acts 1:5 niv
"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

That's what it says.

Yet, many today refuse to believe it.

They want to continue with the old way. Just as many mistakingly did in the very beginning of the Church age. When they were yet to catch on to the fact that the old ritual of water was no longer the way. The way they had become accustomed to.

But, as time passed. Some finally did catch on.

Acts 11:16 niv
"Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'"

It took Peter a while. But, it finally made its way home to his heart. It took Peter what looks like was a few years before he FINALLY recalled what he was told by the LORD before he ascended to Heaven.

In Christ, GeneZ

mike1reynolds · Sep 14, 2006

genez said:
So? You are quoting what was to be the way to being saved at that given moment in time. It does no longer pertain to the Church age.

So the rules have changed and at some point virtue and spiritual discipline no longer mattered, or suddenly came to matter?

genez said:
Until Jesus was glorified, and the Spirit could be given? The way for salvation was to include ritual water baptism.

Thats it and they were saved and without it they were damned??

genez said:
They want to continue with the old way. Just as many mistakingly did in the very beginning of the Church age.

Christianity was wrong from the start and you are giving us a better way?

genez said:
It took Peter a while. But, it finally made its way home to his heart. It took Peter what looks like was a few years before he FINALLY recalled what he was told by the LORD before he ascended to Heaven.

Peter was so dumb and you are so much smarter!

BroGinder · Sep 14, 2006

I totally agree that Jesus referred to the Spirit as Living Water. I totally agree that he told the that John Baptised into repentance but they woul be baptized with the Holy ghost. I get that. Then Why did he tell them in Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. This was after he had arisen from the grave so was after Calvary.

Since we can not offer them Baptisim in the Spirit (We are not God) What was it he was telling them to do then?

Schroeder · Sep 14, 2006

BroGinder said:
I can honestly see how one could come to some of the points that you make. I know that some of the scripture does not command the water experience only eludes to it. However, how do we get past the words "Except" or "AND" in John 3:5?

some of what you say eludes to it really dont. like rom 6:3-. nothing here about water baptism. well it is simple if you understand that the word "water" does not always mean water baptism. i mentioned in some translations it says water "EVEN" the SPirit. YOu see if Nico knew the old prophecis he would see this "water" was reference to Christ and His baptism or cleansing. It is hard to make a BRAND new point without making light of what they did already understood. and all around this verse is hints that it was NOT two acts but one. verse 3 says born from above. he does not add to it seconds later as if he forgot that part. verse 6 flesh gives birth to flesh and SPirit gives birth to Spirit. he doesnt forget add then say nevermind. verse 8 So it is with everyone BORN OF THE SPIRIT. verse 3:16 beleive in me and have EVERLASTING LIFE. he did not say believe in me and be water baptized for everlasting life. Did you look at mark 16:16 with john 3:18 and john 7:38-29?

I do know this, on the day of judgement he will not pull out the New international version, or the King James Version he will pull out the original manuscript. It is my prayer the one that is right has been followed into all truth as the scripture provides guidance.

I think we ALL will be a little surprised. lets not put all our hopes in the scriptures. we are to be guided by the SPirit. the bible is a tuning fork to know which Spirit is leading you.

Schroeder · Sep 14, 2006

BroGinder said:
I totally agree that Jesus referred to the Spirit as Living Water. I totally agree that he told the that John Baptised into repentance but they woul be baptized with the Holy ghost. I get that. Then Why did he tell them in Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. This was after he had arisen from the grave so was after Calvary.

Since we can not offer them Baptisim in the Spirit (We are not God) What was it he was telling them to do then?

because he was not telling them to GO water baptize. he was telling them to GO make disciples and to teach them all he commands. the COMMA baptizing them INTO the name of... was what them GOING AND DOING would create. THE CHURCH. That is what they truelly did. they went they taught about Christ when they believed the became baptized(immersed) into the Body, Church. at which point they could teach them Christ commands. notice they NEVER water baptized anyone in that form or wording. notice NO scripture says that being water baptized joins you into the Church or makes you a disciple. Notice it says to teach them His commands AFTER they are in the Body, or saved. why because rom 8:5-10 says you can not please him without the Spriit in you. 1 cor 2 says you cant understand the teaching unless the Spirit helps you. And he can NOW say this because he is now GLORIFIED and the Spirit could be given by Him. which is why in Mark 16:16 he says it as well. these are all about the same account so should be read similiarly.

BroGinder · Sep 14, 2006

So your saying that when he said Go and baptize them what he meant was go build a church? I may be missing something in what your saying.

To me this is real plain. The context is straightway I thought. Since the verse starts out " Then Jesus came and spake unto them" he wasnt there he had to come for this specific conversation. "All Power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" Declaring his majesty, declaring he is God. "Go ye therefore," There fore, purpose, to do this thing, "and teach all nations WHATSOEVER" Whatsoever, everything, all and all, nothing left out "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost" Never did I read that the Baptism of the Spirit was to be done in the name of Jesus. We do not have the authority to baptize people with the Spirit. Hence flesh is flesh Spirit is Spirit. "Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I have commanded you"

I am seeking knowledge please remember that ther eis no voice infliction in written text. I am not being a smart elic I am truly seeking for a deeper understanding.

Rich48 · Sep 14, 2006

You observations correct; man cannot baptize another in the Spirit, but man can baptize anyone in water. I have pointed it out before: The Greek word here that is tranlated baptize literally means either "to dip" or "to immerse," and that is water baptizm.

Rich

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