Sexually Active Christians

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lilymarie

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I don't know what you mean by "actual church history" nor what church you are referring to, and, unless you're referring to the book of Acts, what does 'church history' have to do with anything anyway? What about the bible? There is no direction in the scripture regarding celebicy except in 1Cor 7 where it advises young Christians to hang in there until they learn how to walk with God first in their lives... until they mature. Also, as far as I know, there is nothing in the bible about "vows of celebicy" at all. Celebicy between married people? I don't think so.

BTW there's nothing very difficult about that verse if you understand that it's talking about a Father and Daughter.

You missed one point in Leviticus (don't know the exact scripture) where it says if a man rapes a women he has to marry her and pay her father money.

Also, to some of you who think sex is okay before marriage, why do you think God created the virgin blood?

Just no reason? Or what do you think?

The virgin blood is representative of our human marriage covenant, just as Jesus' sacrifice of his virgin blood is how we are "married" to The Lord. Remember The Bible teaches us The Lord is the bridegroom; and, we, the church, are his bride.

So, some of you think the virgin blood of a female was created for no reason?

See my explanation above as to why it was created. God always connects something. Think...

__________

Oh, and yes Jesus talks about celibacy, but it's under divorce, marriage and eunuchs. ..."some were made eunuchs for the kingdom of God". (paraphrased) If I find the scripture later, I'll edit it in.
 
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MadFingerPainter

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Forgive me for not simply using the proper quote and reply method of replying. For some reason it will not come up on my computer at this time. I don't know if others are having the same problem.

In reply to bithiah remarks about God forgiving sin. I would agree, on the other hand we often bare the results of that sin for a life time. Not only ourselves but family and friends often have to live with the results of our sin as well through out their life. For instance a wife may pay for her husband's sin by getting a sexual disease which he caught while engaged in sin, even though he had confessed the sin and the Lord had forgiven him of the same.

Another reason that sex has become a run away subject in the church is because Christians insist on living on the border-line. They dabble in illicit sex by watch movies and reading books etc. which propagate the idea that sex outside of marriage is okay. When you fill your mind with this stuff long enough you will end up in the same gutter as the world.

Another reason that Christian men have problems with sex is women's dress. If a woman is going to hang out the sign suggesting that she are looking for activity then some one is going to answer her ad. A woman's dress might be stylish according to Hollywood but that doesn't make it proper dress for a Christian Lady. Most of Hollywood's designers plan to dress woman in clothes that draw men in sexually. Many a man sits behind bars today because of some woman's dress code, after all men are attracted to woman sexually through the eye gate.
i don't dress in a sexually suggestive manner & i still can't find a man that is interested in anything but that.
 
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Amisk

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i don't dress in a sexually suggestive manner & i still can't find a man that is interested in anything but that.


Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you personally where dressing in a sexually suggestive manner. I was speaking more in general terms. It is true that the woman confronted by the guy looking for sex is not always the one who caused the problem. Just as is true of the girl who is raped. Many times she is the victim of what some other girl's foully or suggestive photos or what some author has written.

Let me add that in no case does it let the guy off the hook so to speak. He is responsible for his actions.

Some one has mentioned that God always forgives sin. While it is true that God is always willing to forgive sin, that doesn't mean that He always does.

There are conditions to be met before He forgives sin:

1. We must come in true genuine sorrowing repentance for our sin.

2. Does He forgive if we go to the pig pen to play and then come home saying, "oh, I better ask God to forgive me, but I have a date to do the same thing tomorrow? Not likely.

3. God looks on the heart and He knows went are sincere. He knows crocodile tears when He sees them.

4. It is safe to say, "No remorse, mixed with no real desire to overcome our wayward lifestyle, will produce little in forgiveness on God's part. After all He is no man's fool.
 
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holo

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Also, to some of you who think sex is okay before marriage, why do you think God created the virgin blood?
Well, if he made it so for that reason, it would be reasonable to asky why he gave men a "G-spot" in the behind, as it's often referred to. Did he want men to enjoy having sex with each other?

Regarding sex and marriage;
if I've understood things correctly, people were way younger when they married in biblical times. They didn't go around with grown bodies ready for sex and procreation for like 15 years before they got married. Personally, though, I think it's usually good to be at least 25 years old when you marry. But I guess culture and society has shaped us to be young much longer than before.

In any case, God looks to the heart.
 
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MadFingerPainter

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Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you personally where dressing in a sexually suggestive manner. I was speaking more in general terms. It is true that the woman confronted by the guy looking for sex is not always the one who caused the problem. Just as is true of the girl who is raped. Many times she is the victim of what some other girl's foully or suggestive photos or what some author has written.
i understand that. i'm simply saying that this is not always the case with some men. some don't care how you dress or what you do. they just want sex & nothing more. they are usually very blunt about it as well. the message they send is that if you're not willing to play along you're not worth playing with. that in turn puts the celibate person in a position where they start to doubt themselves & the reason they are being celibate which ends up causing doubt in God. then they have to decide whether to stay that way or not. no one {man or woman} should ever have to be shunned or treated with disrespect because of a life choice they've made for their belief system. ;)
 
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I don't know what you mean by "actual church history" nor what church you are referring to, and, unless you're referring to the book of Acts, what does 'church history' have to do with anything anyway? What about the bible? There is no direction in the scripture regarding celebicy except in 1Cor 7 where it advises young Christians to hang in there until they learn how to walk with God first in their lives... until they mature. Also, as far as I know, there is nothing in the bible about "vows of celebicy" at all. Celebicy between married people? I don't think so.

BTW there's nothing very difficult about that verse if you understand that it's talking about a Father and Daughter.

What do I mean by "actual church history"?

The church has been around for nearly 2,000 years. We have written records of those who lived during the times of the Apostles and shortly afterwards, as well as for the first few centuries after that (and, of course, after that, too). The Apostolic Fathers is the term used to describe those writings from the 1st and 2nd centuries; the Early Church Fathers is the term for the writings of those for the first 6 or 7 centuries of the church. You can read many of them for free online at http://www.ccel.org. You can read Eusebius's Church History (one of the later volumes of the Church Fathers: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/TOC.htm) for many accounts that were passed down to him of the early Christians and what they said and did (and in some cases, how they died as martyrs). The Orthodox and Catholic Churches have preserved the accounts and lives of many early Christians so that we can know what they believed and taught, and how they lived their lives. It is from these ancient writings that we can know how the Christians of the first few centuries put Christ's and the Apostles' teachings into daily and lifelong practice. While you may interpret the New Testament differently than they did, these writings let us know how THEY interpreted it.

As for the difficulty of that passage in 1 Corinthians 7:36 (post 1 of 3):

Hurd describes v. 36 as “one of the most difficult and controversial in the NT.”581 Again an unusual lexicographical problem is tied up with exegetical and contextual judgments. On the translation for ὑπέρακμος in this verse (a) Grimm-Thayer offers a clear analysis: ὑπέρ (beyond) the ἀκμή (prime of life, bloom of life, ripe time) leads to at least two possible types of meaning (cf. Vulgate, superadultus).582 They argue for overripe, which when applied to a person’s age means “past the flower of her age, 1 Cor 7 36,” or past one’s prime. Other lexicographers propose pertaining to being of an age beyond the prime of life (in 1 Cor 7:36, “… beyond normal marriageable age”),583 past the bloom of youth as the primary meaning.584 BAGD allude to being past the ἀκμή, “the highest point … of a person’s development” (cf. ἀκμή in Plato, Republic 5.460E; Philo, Legum Allegoriae 1.10) and interpret this verse in this way.585 If the younger but more mature woman has reached this point, perhaps, after all, she should not delay indefinitely. (b) On the other hand, it is possible to apply ὑπέρ, beyond, to intensity of life feeling, passion, or vigor.586 Although virtually all the major lexicographers argue for temporal span or age, the English translations are divided. Several follow if his passions are strong (NRSV, REB, Moffatt), strong passions (NJB and Collins), or oversexed (Barrett) over against past the flower of her age (AV/KJV); if she is getting on in years (NIV).

“PARTHENOS” AND “HYPERAKMOS”

The issue cannot be decided until we have also explored the exegetical issues surrounding the meaning of τὴν παρθένον αὐτοῦ … ἐὰν ᾖ.… The older, traditional interpretation assumed that αὐτοῦ referred to a father (not to a fiancé or to a “spiritual” partner) and παρθένον referred to his virgin daughter. In this case the subject of the subjunctive verb is the daughter, and the condition for recommending permission for marriage will be one of age. But most recent commentators understand τὴν παρθένον to refer to a betrothed woman, and ὑπέρακμος to refer to the man’s sense of the pull of passion beyond reasonable limits. It may indeed refer to a mutual sense of a pull which is so strong as to have become counterproductive for undistracted devotion to the Lord (v. 35). Héring and Conzelmann apply this to the category of “spiritual” marriages, where proximity has led to strong attraction, and it is better for the couple to marry as husband and wife than to try to sustain the pretense of undistracted detachment.587 (See above on 7:2 and 7:25.)588 Since the feminine and masculine forms of ὑπέρακμος remain the same, this matter cannot be decided on purely linguistic grounds, just as the subject of the subjunctive verb also remains ambiguous in the Greek. Apart from making the interpretative judgment that the evidence for viewing αὐτοῦ as a father and παρθένον (here) as virgin daughter is too weak to carry conviction, we have translated if it is a matter of undue strain to yield a meaning which most naturally refers to the pull of passion or attraction beyond reasonable limits, without excluding the possibility that the strain might have included sheer length of time either additionally or instead.​

Since Paul is positively encouraging a sense of freedom, Barrett’s proposed translation oversexed hardly accords with Paul’s desire not to offer a negative value judgment on those who wish to marry.589 Moreover, there is no lexicographical evidence that ἀκμή means anything more than point, culminating point, or even (LSJ) “most fitting time” (e.g., Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus 1492; Sophocles, Philoctetes 12).590 Any degree of attraction that passes the line of what fittingly allows undistracted devotion to the Lord without marriage undercuts Corinthian ascetic advice not to marry, for such advice (not now as ascetic advice, but circumstantial advice) at this point defeats its own purpose.591​

581 Hurd, Origin of 1 Corinthians, 171.

Grimm-Thayer Grimm and Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament

582 Grimm-Thayer, 640.

583 Louw-Nida, 1:650 (entry 67.158).

584 LSJ, 1,609.

BAGD Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

585 BAGD, 839; cf. MM, 652, “of full age”; Rylands Papyri 2:105:11 (ad 136); and “ὑπέρακμος,” EDNT, 3:398.

586 Héring, First Epistle, 63.

587 Ibid., 62–63 and Conzelmann, 1 Cor, 134–36.

588 Under 7:2 we noted the views of Achelis, Virgines Subintroductae, together with allusions in Tertullian, On Monogramy, 16 and Exhortation to Chastity, 12; Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 7:30:12, and arguments in Balch and Wimbush.

589 Barrett, First Epistle, 173 and 182.

LSJ Liddell, Scott, and Jones, A Greek-English Lexicon

590 LSJ, 48.

591 The concerns of Deming, Wimbush, and Yarbrough to explore Cynic-Stoic affinities, whatever reservations may be entertained over certain aspects of their work all share the merit of rightly pushing Paul’s alleged asceticism to the margins as far less central than, e.g., circumstantial factors and issues of “advantage” for different persons in different situations. Barrett’s translation is uncharacteristically injudicious.

Thiselton, A. C. (2000). The First Epistle to the Corinthians : A commentary on the Greek text (593). Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans.

(see next two posts, too)
 
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(continued from previous post - Comments on 1 Corinthians 7:36 - post 2 of 3; see next post, too)

THE MEANING OF ὑπέρακμος

A number of writers include a special appendix in their commentaries on these terms. Allo, e.g., includes a detailed discussion of the views of Achelis, Lietzmann, and others. In summary, three main views, with a fourth scarcely supported option, and a fifth worthy of thought may be considered. By subdividing the fifth, Schrage arrives at six options.592​

(i) The view that the man and woman in this passage refer to father and daughter is widely said to constitute the normal interpretation among the Fathers. On closer inspection of the actual sources, however, the interpretation is less “universal” than is often claimed. Chrysostom’s Homilies on 1 Corinthians are not conclusive, but his reference in his De Virginitate does adopt the father-daughter view.593 Ambrose interprets ὑπέρακμος as si sit ultra pubertatem, and the comments which he makes on quod faciat, non peccat, si nubat … seem hardly to restrict the application explicitly to fathers and daughters.594 On the other hand, Theodore of Mopsuestia does explicitly write εἰ τις εὐθράσει τῇ τῆς θυγατρὸς προαιρέσει, φοβεῖται δὲ μὴ ὑπέρακμος γενομένη … , which is said to be the usual patristic view.595 Augustine also follows this view, and Theodoret’s Latin version is equally explicit in its use of filiam, just as his Greek version uses τὴν θυγατέρα.596 Luther also attempts to explain how, if fathers are the subject of inquiry, behaving “in ways not proper” could be at stake. He replies: “if it is the custom in your city … that one is ashamed to have his daughters become old maids, one should do as he wishes.…”597 Calvin declares, “Paul now turns to address the parents who had children under their control.”598 In the face of all the talk at Corinth about celibacy, Paul wants the parents to act in the interests of the daughter “when a father has weighed up his daughter’s temperament.”599 Chrysostom, Theodore, Augustine, Theodoret, Luther, and Calvin are followed by the writers listed below.600 Allo places most of the weight on the force of ὑπέρακμος and the transitive use of γαμίζω.601​

(ii) We have already discussed the hypothesis advocated by Achelis (probably following E. Grafe) about “spiritual” marriages, i.e., couples living together who practiced, and had probably vowed, celibacy. Achelis refers to “pseudo-marriages” (Pseudo-Ehe) of the third and fourth centuries mostly on the part of clergy and finds an allusion in the Synod of Nicea of ad 325.602 We concluded that we could neither establish nor exclude this possibility (see above on 7:2, 25). To the present verse Weiss, Héring, Conzelmann, and other writers listed below apply this view.603 Héring produces many arguments against the first view. But a direct, firsthand examination of the ancient primary sources indicates that certain difficulties have been anticipated. Thus Luther explores why it might not be “proper” for a father to withhold consent to marriage by his daughter: as against Héring’s doubt about such a reason Luther discusses the social status of the unmarried daughter.604 Nevertheless, most of Héring’s arguments stand, and are strengthened by Hurd’s careful list of eight relevant factors (see below). The closest English translation which explicitly supports this view is probably Moffatt’s spiritual bride.​

(iii) A clear majority of twentieth-century scholars interpret v. 36 as referring to engaged couples. As against RV, ASV, and TCNT (the AV/KJV probably also, but it has some ambiguity) virtually every modern English translation reflects this view: NRSV, REB, NIV, NJB, Goodspeed, Collins, and Barrett. Among specialist writers, Lietzmann, Kümmel, Wolbert, Senft, Fee, Hurd, Lang, and Schrage argue for the view, while it is also supported or adopted by Bruce, Barrett, Harrisville, Talbert, and Witherington.605 Fee, Senft, and Schrage argue that the third plural imperative γαμείτωσαν is difficult for the father-daughter view, since now not only an unidentified τις has entered the text, but some third party implicit in the verb.606 Only by reading the selective D, G, L MS family (not well supported), i.e., the singular γαμείτω, let her marry (with NASB) could this be overcome. But the change in MSS is easy to explain as secondary. The indefinite pronoun would hardly refer to a new unidentified subject, and most of the impressive array of thirteen scholars cited above contend that the contextual theme of engaged couples in the larger section must be assumed unless there is evidence to the contrary.607 As Hurd, Lietzmann, and Schrage concede, the only argument which remains strong in favor of the father-daughter view is the use of the normally transitive verb γαμίζω in v. 38. But Lietzmann appeals to Debrunner and other grammarians for intransitive instances of the verb, and Schrage finds intransitive uses in the LXX.608 Further, -ιζω endings are not always transitive: ἐλπίζω, I hope, represents one example.

592 Allo, Première Épitre, 191–94; cf. Lietzmann, An die Korinther, 35–37; Schrage, Der erste Brief, 2:197–99.

593 Chrysostom, On Virginity, 73 (Migne, PG, 48:586–88), which appears to have been omitted from the library of NPNF in English translation. Chrysostom, 1 Cor. Hom., 19:7, is more ambiguous, and indeed a possibly implied allusion to second marriages might be thought to suggest the opposite view.

594 Ambrose, Opera Omnia: In Epist. 1 ad Cor., 138A (Migne, PL, 17.2.2, 237).

595 Theodore of Mopsuestia, 1 Kor, 5 Frag. 271, in K. Staab (ed.), Pauluskommentare,183.

596 Theodoret, Opera Omnia: Interpr. Ep. 1 ad Cor, 211C (Migne, PG, 82:283–84).

597 Luther, Works, 28:54 (WA, 12:140).

598 Calvin, First Epistle, 164.

599 Ibid., 165.

600 Bengel, Gnomon, 633: aliquis, parens; Bachmann, Der erste Brief, 280; Lightfoot, Notes, 234; Parry, 1 Cor, 78; Grosheide, First Epistle, 182–84; Edwards, First Epistle, 200–201; Allo, Première Épitre, 177, 184, and 191–94; Morris, First Epistle, 120: “The man is a general term for the parent or guardian of a girl …”; Robertson and Plummer, First Epistle, 158: “The Corinthians had asked him about the duty of a father with a daughter of age to marry”; Snyder, First Cor, 115; Goudge, First Epistle, 62, alludes to Ecclus 42:9, 10. It was a disgrace for a virgin never to have “a marriage song” (Ps 78:63); Heinrici, Das erste Sendschreiben, 211–13.

601 Allo, Première Épitre, 191–94.

602 See above on 7:2 and in further detail on 7:25. Achelis, Virgines Subintroductae. Ein Beitrag zu 1 Kor VII, 4 and 5 cites the work of E. Grafe (1899) and compares 1 Cor 7:36–38 (6, n. 1). But apart from the reference to Hermas (discussed above) Achelis depends mainly on such later sources as Cyprian and the Acts of Carthage (ad 256) (7–15) and Montanist practices (18–20). His discussion of 1 Cor 7:36–38 (20–33) has been overtaken by more recent research. Some of his sources for the early church remain obscure (41–59), and his arguments speculative (60–75).

603 Weiss, Der erste Korintherbrief, 206–9 who refers to E. Grafe’s research prior to Achelis, and to the subsequent research of J. Sickenberger in BZ 3 (1905): 44–69; Lake, Earlier Epistles, 190 (cf. 184–91); Schlier, “Über das Hauptanliegen des 1 Korintherbriefes,” EvT 8 (1948–49): 469; Thrall, 1 and 2 Cor, 59; Héring, First Epistle, 63; Hurd, Origin of 1 Corinthians, 171–80; Conzelmann, 1 Cor, 134–36. See further G. Delling, Paulus’ Stellung zu Frau und Ehe (Stuttgart: Kohlhammer, 1931), 86ff.

604 Luther, Works, 28:54 (WA, 12:140).

605 An early detailed discussion in favor of this view is W. G. Kümmel, “Verlobung und Heirat bei Paulus (1 Kor 7:36–38),” in Neutestamentliche Studien für Rudolf Bultmann, 275–95. Kümmel suggests that this view was first proposed by W. C. van Manen in 1874 (Neutestamentliche Studien, 277); also Lietzmann, An die Korinther, 35–37 (with Kümmel’s additional comment, 178–79); Senft, La Première Épitre, 105–6, esp. n. 11; Schrage, Der erste Brief, 2:197–200; Wolbert, Ethische Argumentation und Paränese in 1 Kor 7, 131–32; Lang, Die Briefe, 102–3. Support can be found in Bruce, 1 and 2 Cor, 76; Harrisville, 1 Cor, 127–29; Barrett, First Epistle, 184; Talbert, Reading Corinthians; Witherington, Women in the Earliest Churches, 41.

606 For example, Fee, First Epistle, 352.

607 For example, Senft, La Première Épitre, 106, n. 11; Schrage, Der erste Brief, 2:197–99.

608 Lietzmann, An die Korinther, 35–36; Schrage, Der erste Brief, 2:198 cites Deut 25:3; Ezek 16:7.



Thiselton, A. C. (2000). The First Epistle to the Corinthians : A commentary on the Greek text (594). Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans.
 
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(3 of 3 posts on 1 Corinthians 7:36 translation issues)

(iv) We have already considered the proposal of J. M. Ford that παρθένος refers to the custom in Judaism of Levirite marriage, which can apply, according to the Mishnah, “only when the girl has reached the age of puberty” (Ford’s interpretation of ὑπέρακμος).609 But as we noted in 7:25, (a) lexicographers hesitate to accept that παρθένος could include a widow; (b) this meaning of ὑπέρακμος is improbable and in any case speculative; and (c) the influence of customs in Judaism in the church remains problematic. Few specialists, if any, regard this view as possible.610​

(v) A fifth suggestion offers a variant, but a more convincing variant, of (i). The proposal may be subdivided, as J. O’Rourke, H. J. Klauck, and W. Schrage have outlined, as (v)(a) a reference to guardians or persons unspecified who are caring for the welfare of an otherwise unprotected virgin; and (v)(b), the owner of a virgin who is his female slave.611 The former subcategory coheres with the interpretation of Peter Lombard and Thomas Aquinas, who speak, without narrower specification, of “eustodes virginum,” and of Estius, who alludes only to “custos.”612 The latter subcategory is explored by Klauck and Schrage as a historical possibility which would explain the issue about proper behavior or conduct toward the girl, and may in principle (depending on linguistic factors) include the notion of the owner’s giving permission for her to marry, or just conceivably to let her marry him. But largely because of the syntax as well as the speculative explanation for Paul’s otherwise unexplained τις, Schrage firmly chooses the third option above, namely, that the man and woman are already an engaged couple.613​

Some writers (e.g., Orr and Walther) hold that the issues are too finely balanced and complex to permit any exegetical decision.614 But Hurd lists eight significant factors which influence the exegesis, of which only one, namely, the use of the normally transitive γαμίζω, counts in favor of (i).615 But Schrage and Lietzmann have adequately disposed of this problem: it can be used intransitively. Since (iv) is highly improbable and (v) possible but speculative, we are left with (ii) and (iii). Deming’s sustained attack on “spiritual marriages” deserves respect, which causes us to favor (iii), but we cannot exclude (ii) and should not forget (v).616 However, Paul’s advice remains in practice the same, whether (ii) or (iii) is accepted. He offers (1) a positive evaluation of celibacy, but for practical and pastoral, not ascetic reasons; and recognizes (2) that since people and circumstances vary, in certain cases where abstinence would cause strain beyond reasonable limit marriage could yield undistracted devotion to the Lord more readily than celibacy.​

The argument that special circumstances may include a high intensity of love or passion and could thereby exempt someone from expectations of celibacy for the purpose solely of lack of distraction finds a precise parallel in Epictetus.617 Both Paul and Epictetus advocate what helps in such “special circumstances,” the former in terms of what yields least distraction from devotion to the Lord; the latter, in terms of what yields least distraction from philosophical study (Epictetus, Dissertations 3.22.76; cf. 2.5.23; 4.1.147). Hence Deming renders ὑπέρακμος as over the limit, which would be a satisfactory translation if it did not require some contextual explanation.618 Blomberg is no more ready to offer a judgment than Orr and Walther, but concludes that on any interpretation the message of “Yes, but …” characterizes Paul’s advice, which again coheres with Deming, Yarbrough, and Wimbush on Paul’s rejection of unqualified asceticism in favour of practical considerations.619​

In the second half of the verse the interpretation of καὶ οὕτως ὀφείλει γίνεσθαι ὃ θέλει ποιείτω depends partly on our view of the options set forth above. On the basis of the second or third view (spiritual marriages or engaged couples), our translation conveys the moral evaluation implicit in ὀφείλει by and it seems the right thing, and ποιείτω as the concessive imperative by he should do what he wishes. On the other hand, if the father-daughter view is adopted, ὀφείλει becomes more mandatory: it becomes a matter of obligation (ὀφείλω, I owe, I ought) to permit his daughter to marry if either (a) she is captive to mutual love or passion with a potential husband, or (b) she has reached an age at which an unmarried status begins to raise eyebrows. The plural imperative at the end of the verse, γαμείτωσαν (see above), causes difficulties for this view. But if the subject includes both the παρθένος and (by implication) the betrothed this would be grammatically admissible.”​

The key phrase, however, is clear in meaning: οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει. Paul not only adopts an anti-ascetic stance towards the Corinthian ascetics (or at very least one which Wimbush calls “worldly” asceticism), but is also concerned pastorally to release those who wish to marry from any sense of sin, failure, or second-class status.620 He refuses to allow the voluntary ascetics to regard themselves as a spiritual elite: God’s demands remain diverse for different people in different situations.

609 Ford, “Levirate Marriage in St Paul (1 Cor vii),” 361–65.

610 Ford alludes to m. Niddah 5:6, 7; but see above on 7:25 and the decisive criticisms in Barrett’s comment on v. 36.

611 Klauck, 1 Korintherbrief, 57–58; Schrage, Der erste Brief, 2:197–98. Cf. also J. J. O’Rourke, “Hypotheses regarding 1 Cor 7:36–38,” 492–98 on master–female slave, adopted ward, guardian. He argues for master-slave.

612 Peter Lombard, Collectanea, in Migne, PL, 192; Thomas Aquinas, Super Epist. S. Pauli: ad 1 Cor, 309, sect. 400 (cf. Nicholas, Postilla, ibid.); also Estius (William van Est, c. 1614).

613 Schrage, Der erste Brief, 2:197–99.

614 Orr and Walther, 1 Cor, 224.

615 Hurd, Origin of 1 Corinthians, 172–75.

616 Deming, Paul on Marriage, 40–47; cf. 206–9.

617 Ibid., 209.

618 Ibid., 206.

619 Blomberg, 1 Cor, 155.

620 Again, the “anti-ascetic” stance is urged by Schrage, Deming, and Yarbrough.

Thiselton, A. C. (2000). The First Epistle to the Corinthians : A commentary on the Greek text (597). Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans.
 
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umm...ok...question here...KATH
who are these apostolic or church fathers i keep hearing so much about & what do they have to do with the bible?

They best way to acquaint yourself with them is to read their writings. That way you'll be taking their word, not mine, for who they were and what they said/wrote. As you can see from the comments below, some of these writings were for a time included as Scripture in the "Bibles" of some of the early Christians (and, conversely, some of the books that we have in our Bible were not at one time included in the lists that some Christians made of which books were Scripture).

Also, it was these early church fathers and councils of bishops that confirmed for us which books were appropriate to read in the Church (i.e., which books made up the New Testament canon - i.e., the books in our Bible). Paul and Peter and James and John, etc., never said to take their books and put them together into the Bible. It was the early Christians and "church fathers" and leaders and bishops, etc., who from the churches' use of the apostles' writings determined the books for the New Testament canon. Those books which contained and taught the Apostles' doctrine and had apostolic or church authority and reflected those things that had been believed and practiced by everyone everywhere and for all time were suitable for inclusion among the books that could be read in the church - i.e., that formed the Bible (or at least the New Testament part). So, that's a bit of what they have to do with the Bible - i.e., they preserved its writings and influenced its content.

While they didn't "give us the Bible" (i.e., they didn't write its books), apart from them we wouldn't have the Bible.

Hope this helps and/or answers your questions somewhat.

From:Apostolic Fathers: An Essential Guide (An Essential Guide) (Paperback)
by Clayton N. Jefford
http://www.amazon.com/Apostolic-Fat...=pd_bbs_2/102-8572527-9956959?ie=UTF8&s=books

As author Clayton Jefford states in the first chapter, the body of literature collectively known as the Apostolic Fathers was, like the New Testament, not recognised as such during the time of composition, but rather is a categorisation that has been made much later, with the benefit of hindsight.

'In large part our Apostolic Fathers represent the remnants of early Christian writings that ultimately did not make it into the New Testament canon.' These are writings that were seen as having merit for the early Christian community, and continued to hold authority of some sort in most subsequent Christian times and institutions, but has never had an official church sanction in the way that the canonical Bible has had.

However, understanding the formation of the canon is important in understanding the Apostolic Fathers as a collection, and Jefford introduces this complex subject with clarity. The closeness of these works to the canonical scriptures can be seen in the fact that, on various ancient lists, some of the works appear with the current canonical books, while some canonical texts are missing....

Despite their influence, which has resurfaced a number of times in the nearly two millennia since their composition, 'the collected writings of the early church that are now classified as the Apostolic Fathers unfortunately remain a complete mystery to most Christians.' Jefford makes apt contrast of these texts with other works such as the Gospel of Thomas and other 'lost' writings - the fact that these were preserved (even though not considered scriptural) shows that the church over time considered them important and worthwhile in ways that competing writings were not. Jefford also highlights the regional diversity and ethnic and ethical diversity of the authors of the Apostolic Fathers. 'They were not canonised, but neither were they rejected. In this way we might argue with some justification that, despite the fact that these writings derive from a variety of different authors and geographical settings, they do indeed stand as a unified corpus of writings that depict a genuine faith among early Christians.'
 
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KATHXOYMENOC

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umm...ok...question here...KATH
who are these apostolic or church fathers i keep hearing so much about & what do they have to do with the bible?

why were they left out?

Each book (e.g., 1 Clement, the Didache, Barnabus, Ignatius's letters, etc.) had its reason for not being included. You'll have to do some reading to inform yourself about that. There are many articles on the Internet and in books re: the formation of the canon.

Note that I am just giving you some basic history; I'm not promoting or defending a particular form or denomination of Christianity in this Non-Denominational Forum.
 
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dubbies

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I don't think it is for me to judge other people or other christians on there behaviors as I am a sinner myself. So I love my fellow brother/sister equally even if they are sexually active or not.
In my situation I had been a virgin all throughout highschool and fully expected to wait till marriage, but while in college I strayed from the Lord and I became sexually active. Now that I have finished college and just recently re-committed myself I fully intend to wait. So if I met a guy I would let him know up front that I expect to not be sexually active and if he is unable to handle that than he can choose to not be in a relationship with me.
 
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Amisk

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[COLOUR=indigo]i understand that. i'm simply saying that this is not always the case with some men. some don't care how you dress or what you do. they just want sex & nothing more. they are usually very blunt about it as well. the message they send is that if you're not willing to play along you're not worth playing with. that in turn puts the celibate person in a position where they start to doubt themselves & the reason they are being celibate which ends up causing doubt in God. then they have to decide whether to stay that way or not. no one {man or woman} should ever have to be shunned or treated with disrespect because of a life choice they've made for their belief system. ;) [/COLOR]

You are right should no one should be treated that way, however the truth of the matter is God never told us that living the Christian life was going to be easy. Neither does the scriptures ever tell us that we will not have to stand a lone.
 
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Amisk

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I don't think it is for me to judge other people or other christians on there behaviours as I am a sinner myself. So I love my fellow brother/sister equally even if they are sexually active or not.
In my situation I had been a virgin all throughout highschool and fully expected to wait till marriage, but while in college I strayed from the Lord and I became sexually active. Now that I have finished college and just recently re-committed myself I fully intend to wait. So if I met a guy I would let him know up front that I expect to not be sexually active and if he is unable to handle that than he can choose to not be in a relationship with me.


So when do you expect to tell the guy you plan to marry that you are not a virgin? What is going to be your reply when he tells you that if you couldn't respect his right to a virgin wife then how does he know that you'll respect his right to a wife who is faithful in marriage?

One of the problems with sex before marriage is this lack of trust after marriage.
 
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mont974x4

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Sadly, in this day and age people would be surprised to marry a virgin as opposed to a non-virgin.


I'm not saying it's right, I know it is quite the opposite, however it doesn't change the fact. Especially when we consider that many people don't get saved until later in life. To deny our past would show ignorance about who we were before Christ and be naive.

That being said, despite my past I now have a very blessed marriage and a better bride than I deserve and I know it is a gift from God.
 
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Krysstian

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Just an observation about CF ... any topic that deals with sex is a popular topic. Whether it's masturbation, homosexuality, fornication, whatever... Christians seem just as mesmerized with the topic of sexuality as the world. This semi-anonymous outlet for Christian communion (CF) has exposed sexual confusion and weakness as an elephant in the room of the Church.
We are not mesmerized by sex, at least I'm not, and I think sex is something every Christian (other than married) faced. So that is why it’s probably a popular topic Isaac. Also, if I start talking about how much I love to do my hair, and pick out my afro, doesn’t make it my weakness. There is confusion everywhere in every topic. Especially when it comes to the body of Christ. No matter how many post or how many replies I get from the CF, I will always do what I've always done. That is waiting on the Lord for His response to concerns or questions. I simply ask others because you never know who can bless you. Please don’t judge the CF, if you don’t like it simply stay off. God Bless
 
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Krysstian

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Forgive me for not simply using the proper quote and reply method of replying. For some reason it will not come up on my computer at this time. I don't know if others are having the same problem.

In reply to bithiah remarks about God forgiving sin. I would agree, on the other hand we often bare the results of that sin for a life time. Not only ourselves but family and friends often have to live with the results of our sin as well through out their life. For instance a wife may pay for her husband's sin by getting a sexual disease which he caught while engaged in sin, even though he had confessed the sin and the Lord had forgiven him of the same.

Another reason that sex has become a run away subject in the church is because Christians insist on living on the border-line. They dabble in illicit sex by watch movies and reading books etc. which propagate the idea that sex outside of marriage is okay. When you fill your mind with this stuff long enough you will end up in the same gutter as the world.

Another reason that Christian men have problems with sex is women's dress. If a woman is going to hang out the sign suggesting that she are looking for activity then some one is going to answer her ad. A woman's dress might be stylish according to Hollywood but that doesn't make it proper dress for a Christian Lady. Most of Hollywood's designers plan to dress woman in clothes that draw men in sexually. Many a man sits behind bars today because of some woman's dress code, after all men are attracted to woman sexually through the eye gate.
Dude, I understand the whole "dressing topic" but men have very wild imaginations. Now there is a certain body part on me that I cant hide no matter what I do that attracts men. I do not dress inappropriately and I'm sure some women do but you can't blame them for liking what they wear. Now if your talking about being half naked that’s a different story. Geez, that’s weak! It's like saying oh, I saw my ma smoke a cigarette and since it’s all out there, it’s provoking me to smoke. You either Cold or Hot, too many luke warms.
 
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Krysstian

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So when do you expect to tell the guy you plan to marry that you are not a virgin? What is going to be your reply when he tells you that if you couldn't respect his right to a virgin wife then how does he know that you'll respect his right to a wife who is faithful in marriage?

One of the problems with sex before marriage is this lack of trust after marriage.
That’s an understatement. I meet enough virgins before they were married that cheated on their spouses. Plus, some of them gave them a sexually transmitted disease. Anyone can cheat on you; just because they are a virgin doesn't mean they will be pure throughout their marriage. I simply didn't care about my virginity and didn't know the importance of it because of being sexually abuse. I just thought that is what people do. At 18 I realized the significance of being pure. I can’t sit here and judge non virgins because some people really just didn't know better.
 
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ROGER459

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(1Corinthinas 5:1-to-5) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
(1Co 5:2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
(1Co 5:3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
(1Co 5:4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1Co 5:5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Thanks, Roger459
 
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