Strong Nuclear Force

Morat

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Click on "The standard cosmological model."

I know you've heard that the universe slowly evolved into what it is today. You don't need to play dumb since i know you know what i mean.

  I think you gave the wrong link. There is not a single bit of biology in that, much less any "Theory of Evolution". There's no mutation, no selection, no differential reproduction, no drift, no inheritance, no nothing.

   It's all cosmology. In fact, nothing about the universe changed but it's distribution of matter, unless you count the decoupling events in the early moments of the Big Bang (which led to matter in the first place).

  There is, as I stated, no biology in cosmology, and no cosmology in biology. They have nothing to do with each other.

 
 
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Morat

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  As to your last, concerning their origins: There are some preliminary ideas, consistant with current cosmology, that offer possibilities. Lacking a GUT, however, it's not much more than the crudest speculation, and any testablity is minimal.

   Offhand, I believe at least one form of string theory indicates that the particular constants and laws of this universe are the only self-consistant set, for instance.

 
 
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Freodin

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Originally posted by alexgb00


Does anybody believe that the laws of physics could've slowly developed into what we have today?


Well, I´m not so knowledgeable about the theories of the Big Bang, but I think I can remember reading that the laws of physics as we know them now were indeed different in the first few microseconds. Is this right?

But for the question"Where do they come from, if not from a law giver?":

This is a problem of semantics, not physics.

Stuff (my simple expression for matter, energy and all existance) has certain attributes.

These can be expressed by "simple" concepts like "colour" or "density" or "potential".

Other attributes are more difficult to decribe: they relate to behaviour of "stuff". These attributes can be called laws.

And as the mentioned simple concepts, they are inherent to "stuff".

So it is wrong to imagine a "law giver" who saw matter and then thought "Hm, and now what should we do with this. LET THERE BE GRAVITY!".
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by Morat
Did you know amino acids form rather readily in space?

Really? Could you please cite that? It seems hard to believe that anything might develop in space.

My point is quite simple: The Theory of Evolution is a biological theory that applies to life. No astronomer would use it in astronomy, or a cosmologist in cosmology. The closest you might get is either analogies, or the occasionally shared minor concept.

I understand that the darwinian theory involves life specifically. But many astronomers believe in that the astral bodies which are present today have evolved. But, you're right about the other things.

This forum, not this board, which is entitled "Science, Creation, and Evolution" and is devoted pretty much exclusivly to the Creation/Evolution debate.

Yes, not the "Theory of Evolution" as stated a couple posts back. 

Rather easily. Panspermiests do it all the time. Heck, some of the ID crowd does. It is immaterial with the first proto-lifeform came from. Abiogenesis, aliens, or *poofed* there by God.

What is the "ID crowd," Morat?

I wouldn't call Creation abiogenesis, since it was a supernatural act. I would think abiogenesis implies naturally created life. By the way, there is no evidence that that ever took place, is there? 

Morat, do you think Creation wouldn't explain diversity? I think it does.

It explains the origins of the universe, the Hubble Flow, the CMB, and some rather nifty things about the structure of the universe? 

Evolution could be falsified tommorow, and it wouldn't change the Big Bang theory a whit. Why should it?

Hmm... The Hubble Flow and CMB. I don't know about that, but when i learned about the BB theory, these things weren't mentioned. Is it something new?

Morat, if evolution was falsified tomorrow, there would be no need to teach the BB theory. I think its only purpose is to secure and protect evolution.

All sciences (Mathematics, chemistry, physics, geology, biology) and their "subdivisions" are related. Chemistry is taught as a prerequisite to physics. 

No, but you can as a verb.

OK. I meant the adjective comment as a joke. :sorry:

Could they have changed over time? Possible. Highly unlikely, as all the available evidence indicates that they were set in the first instants of the Big Bang. And it's pretty darn strong evidence too.

Is it possible to get some evidence to back up this statement? I'm not totally stupid, but i've never heard of evidence that suggests that anything was around during the BB. Was there space? Time? Was it the 4-dimensional world in which we live, or another one?

From your words i understand you believe physical laws existed at the time of the BB. So the BB theory doesn't explain the origin of the universe. If in the 21st century we still don't know where time, space, matter and physical laws came from, maybe the BB theory doesn't help much. What do you think?
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by Morat
 I think you gave the wrong link. There is not a single bit of biology in that, much less any "Theory of Evolution". There's no mutation, no selection, no differential reproduction, no drift, no inheritance, no nothing.

   It's all cosmology. In fact, nothing about the universe changed but it's distribution of matter, unless you count the decoupling events in the early moments of the Big Bang (which led to matter in the first place).

  There is, as I stated, no biology in cosmology, and no cosmology in biology. They have nothing to do with each other.

No, no, no. That site talks about the supposed origin of the world on an astronomical level, not biology. Sorry, i should've explained.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by alexgb00

Morat and Seebs, do you have a theory about the origin of physical laws and things like the strong force?

Yes and no. I believe the ultimate origin of all things is God, but I don't consider this a scientific theory or explanation. I really don't have much of an opinion about it. I certainly don't see any need for people to accept any particular belief system before they can usefully make progress in understanding physics.

So... I have no scientific theory. I happen to have a belief, but I'm not basing it on any kind of observation or evidence; it's just a belief about the underlying structure of things. If twenty years from now, everyone "knows" that the strong force is a natural side-effect of the Big Wazoo Constant, then I'll assume that the BWC is, ultimately, as it is because God said so; you can explain as far back as you want, and the question always stays open.

Some might wonder why I would bother putting God in there only until we find a "better" explanation, but this misses the point; I don't particularly think that the strong force is a *direct* result of God's interaction with the world; I think that God is an *ultimate* cause, not a proximate cause.

To put it into another analogy, if I find out that someone died, and I know someone else was planning to kill him, I may believe that he was killed by that other person... as police gradually reconstruct the details of the death, they may find other elements along the way (a car accident, damage to a car, etcetera), but my explanation may well continue to be the correct one. We're not "reducing" the size of God's contribution; we're expanding the intermediate area as we understand it.
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by Freodin
Well, I´m not so knowledgeable about the theories of the Big Bang, but I think I can remember reading that the laws of physics as we know them now were indeed different in the first few microseconds. Is this right?

Freodin, i couldn't tell you. And neither can any scientist. First off, nobody can be sure the BB took place, and secondly, there would be no way to test this today.

But for the question"Where do they come from, if not from a law giver?":

This is a problem of semantics, not physics.

Stuff (my simple expression for matter, energy and all existance) has certain attributes.

These can be expressed by "simple" concepts like "colour" or "density" or "potential".

Other attributes are more difficult to decribe: they relate to behaviour of "stuff". These attributes can be called laws.

And as the mentioned simple concepts, they are inherent to "stuff".

So it is wrong to imagine a "law giver" who saw matter and then thought "Hm, and now what should we do with this. LET THERE BE GRAVITY!".

Yeah. :) Well, the Bible doesn't say that, but gravity isn't like light, for example. Light, i heard, is a tiny particle travelling in a wave. Gravity is a force between matter. Things are always attracted to each other, not just to the earth.

I don't know a good way to exlain it. Physical laws are so exact. Custom-tailored to our universe. The cause of these could's be chance.
 
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alexgb00

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I understand what you mean, Seebs.

Doesn't it boggle the mind, that if only the strong force didn't exist, there would be no universe? It's amazing, when you think about it. One invisible, tiny force, made up of no matter, with a very short range, holds the world together.  

God bless you, man.
 
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Morat

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Really? Could you please cite that? It seems hard to believe that anything might develop in space.

Sure and here as well.

I understand that the <I>darwinian</I> theory involves life specifically. But many astronomers believe in that the astral bodies which are present today have evolved. But, you're right about the other things
&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp; As in "changed" in a way that has nothing to do with biological evolution? Sure, that's common knowledge.

What is the "ID crowd," Morat?

&nbsp; Intelligent design. Most of them readily accept common descent (like Behe, for instance).

I&nbsp;wouldn't call Creation abiogenesis, since it&nbsp;was a <I>super</I>natural act. I&nbsp;would think abiogenesis&nbsp;implies <I>naturally</I> created life.&nbsp;By the way, there is no evidence that that ever took place, is there?&nbsp;

&nbsp; What, abiogenesis? Depends on what you mean by "Evidence". It's not like chemicals fossilize. It's cutting edge biochem research right now. Give it a decade or two to mature. :)

Morat, do you think Creation wouldn't explain diversity? I think it does.

&nbsp; Creation explains everything. "God did it" explains everything in a totally useless, untestable&nbsp;way.&nbsp;"Why do bacteria become anti-biotic resistant? God did it". Thanks, that helps.

Hmm... The Hubble Flow and CMB. I don't know about that, but when i&nbsp;learned about the BB theory, these things weren't mentioned. Is it something new?

&nbsp; No. Hubble Flow. CMD

Morat, if evolution was falsified tomorrow, there would be no <I>need</I> to teach the BB theory.&nbsp;I think its only purpose is to&nbsp;secure and protect evolution.

&nbsp; Why not? What on earth does evolution have to do with the Big Bang?

&nbsp; And what in the name of Pete do you think would happen if evolution was falsified tommorow?

All sciences (Mathematics, chemistry, physics, geology, biology) and their "subdivisions" are related. Chemistry is taught as a prerequisite to physics.&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp; Really? Why? I learned physics first. I needed Calculus, but mathematics is not a science. I used no chemistry in physics, and no physics in chemistry, although you can model chemistry with physics if you want.

Is it possible to get some evidence to back up this statement? I'm not totally stupid, but i've never heard of evidence that suggests that anything was around during the BB. Was there space? Time? Was it the 4-dimensional world in which we live, or another one?
&nbsp;

&nbsp; During the Big Bang? Or before it?

From your words&nbsp;i understand you believe physical laws existed at the time of the BB. So the BB theory doesn't explain the origin of the universe. If in the 21st century we still don't know where time, space, matter and physical laws came from, maybe the BB theory doesn't help much. What do you think?

&nbsp; The physical laws of our universe were set at the moment of the Big Bang. Our universe began with the Big Bang. The Big Bang, quite nicely, explains the origins of our universe.

&nbsp; Are you asking what comes before?

&nbsp;

&nbsp;
 
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Freodin

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Originally posted by alexgb00


Freodin, i couldn't tell you. And neither can any scientist. First off, nobody can be sure the BB took place, and secondly, there would be no way to test this today.

A slight misunderstanding. I did not ask whether the laws really WERE different, but whether there were theories claiming that.



Yeah. :) Well, the Bible doesn't say that, but gravity isn't like light, for example. Light, i heard, is a tiny particle travelling in a wave. Gravity is a force between matter. Things are always attracted to each other, not just to the earth.

I don't know a good way to exlain it. Physical laws are so exact. Custom-tailored to our universe.&nbsp;The cause of these&nbsp;could's be chance.

Well, colour is also "so exact", as is weight. Isn´t it amazing that a kilogramm weights exactly 1000 gramm? That could not coincidence. There had to be a divine ruler that decreed that.

You get what I mean? All these nifty laws that deal with behaviour of "stuff" don´t decree what stuff has to do, but only describe what we see.
They are inherent.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by alexgb00
I understand what you mean, Seebs.

Doesn't it boggle the mind, that if only the strong force didn't exist, there would be no universe? It's amazing, when you think about it. One invisible, tiny force, made up of no matter, with a very short range, holds the world together.

It doesn't surprise me much, really. If I'm here to observe it, it must be so. If it weren't, I wouldn't be observing it.

I have no idea what the alternatives are, so I can't evaluate the chances, so I can't talk about how likely or unlikely this is. It has been this way in every universe I've ever seen, and so far as I know, I've seen all of them.
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by alexgb00
Yeah. :) Well, the Bible doesn't say that, but gravity isn't like light, for example. Light, i heard, is a tiny particle travelling in a wave. Gravity is a force between matter. Things are always attracted to each other, not just to the earth.

Actually, light is particle and wave, not a particle in a wave. And the similarity between light and gravity is closer than you think. See, there's these things called force-carrier particles, and... well that's another thread. ;)
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by Freodin
A slight misunderstanding. I did not ask whether the laws really WERE different, but whether there were theories claiming that.

I just noticed. Sprechen Sie deutsch, Freodin? Sie&nbsp;weissen englisch sehr gut! Ich lehrne deutsch als&nbsp;zwei Jahren. Ich weisse ein kleinen Bischen von Ihre Sprache.

As for your question, i'm not the person to ask. Try Morat.

Well, colour is also "so exact", as is weight. Isn´t it amazing that a kilogramm weights exactly 1000 gramm? That could not coincidence. There had to be a divine ruler that decreed that.

We're talking physical laws, not physical properties. And neither color nor weight are physical laws. But yes, mass affects planets a big deal.

You get what I mean? All these nifty laws that deal with behaviour of "stuff" don´t decree what stuff has to do, but only describe what we see.
They are inherent.

No, physical laws don't affect what we see. They specifically affect the objects' movements, etc.

Freodin, glauben Sie nach Gott?
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by humblejoe


Actually, light is particle and wave, not a particle in a wave. And the similarity between light and gravity is closer than you think. See, there's these things called force-carrier particles, and... well that's another thread. ;)

OK. Let's talk about that sometime, Joe. I'd like to learn about that. I have a question --&nbsp;do you believe in&nbsp;Creation?

God bless you, brother!

Alex
 
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Freodin

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Originally posted by alexgb00


I just noticed. Sprechen Sie deutsch, Freodin? Sie&nbsp;weissen englisch sehr gut! Ich lehrne deutsch als&nbsp;zwei Jahren. Ich weisse ein kleinen Bischen von Ihre Sprache.

As for your question, i'm not the person to ask. Try Morat.
Yes, you noticed right - I´m from Germany. Ich spreche Deutsch. I´ve been studing English for over twenty years now, and I´m sure with more practice and time your German will get much better. I understood what you meant - but don´t show this to your teacher.




We're talking physical laws, not physical properties. And neither color nor weight are physical laws. But yes, mass affects planets a big deal.

There is not much difference between these two things. It is an inherent fact that matter has a weight. It is also an inherent fact that matter attracts matter with a certain force.



No, physical laws don't affect what we see. They specifically affect the objects' movements, etc.

First, of course do physical laws affect what we see. We see via light and light and its properties are dealt with in Physics.

Second, I didn´t say they AFFECT what we see. I said we DESCRIBE what we see by physical laws. (As we do with physical properties)

Freodin, glauben Sie nach Gott? [/B]

Correction: Glauben Sie an Gott?

Nein, ich glaube nicht an Gott. Ich bin ein Atheist.
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by Morat
Sure and here as well.&nbsp;

OK, that convinces me, almost. But i don't see what the purpose of amino acids in outer space would be. Thanks for the source.

As in "changed" in a way that has nothing to do with biological evolution? Sure, that's common knowledge.

Yes. That's what i was trying to say to you, but when you hear evolve, you automatically assume animals.

Intelligent design. Most of them readily accept common descent (like Behe, for instance).

Most, or some? I have a Church full of Creationists, who believe in the 6-day creation.

What, abiogenesis? Depends on what you mean by "Evidence". It's not like chemicals fossilize. It's cutting edge biochem research right now. Give it a decade or two to mature. :)

Evidence means something that can convince a rational person, like a judge. If i went to court to sue someone over "something, sometime, somehow," with no forensic evidence, i'll be laughed at. Abiogenesis is a myth, but a myth that evolution leans on.

Creation explains everything. "God did it" explains everything in a totally useless, untestable&nbsp;way.&nbsp;"Why do bacteria become anti-biotic resistant? God did it". Thanks, that helps.

That's one alternative to "darwin did it."


OK, i understand the Hubble flow. But we are taking the&nbsp;measurements&nbsp;for Gospel truth. It's impossible to measure accurately from our physical standpoint in the&nbsp;universe. So the distance to a galaxy and the galaxy's speed relative to us is very hard to measure. But even if the galaries are moving apart, we don't know if they are moving away from a certain spot, an "epicenter."

The prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah say repeatedly that God "stretched out the heavens":

-- Isaiah 42:5
-- Isaiah 44:24
-- Isaiah 45:12
-- Isaiah 51:13
-- Jeremiah 10:12
-- Jeremiah 51:15

I'll read in-depth about the Cosmic Microwave&nbsp;Background a bit later, but now i have to finish this.

Why not? What on earth does evolution have to do with the Big Bang?

And what in the name of Pete do you think would happen if evolution was falsified tommorow?

We're both headstrong and stubborn. We can't reach a conclusion on this point. I just believe strongly that evolution without aboigenesis and&nbsp;the BB wouldn't survive.

Really? Why? I learned physics first. I needed Calculus, but mathematics is not a science. I used no chemistry in physics, and no physics in chemistry, although you can model chemistry with physics if you want.

I don't like to use the dictionary often, but i will, to establish "science":

science 1. Orig. the state or fact of knowledge; knowledge. 2. systemized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried out in order to determine the nature oro principles of what is being studied.

By these definitions, mathematics is a branch of the tree of science. You can't do anything with chemistry or physics without, at least, basic math. Wouldn't you agree, Morat?

During the Big Bang? Or before it?

You decide. Both, if you can.

The physical laws of our universe were set at the moment of the Big Bang. Our universe began with the Big Bang. The Big Bang, quite nicely, explains the origins of our universe.

The laws were "set." By whom? You can't believe that they originated by themselves! I think you are pretending that the BB explains this and that, but don't even think so yourself. Is that true?
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by Freodin
Yes, you noticed right - I´m from Germany. Ich spreche Deutsch. I´ve been studing English for over twenty years now, and I´m sure with more practice and time your German will get much better. I understood what you meant - but don´t show this to your teacher.

Jahowl. Ich bin ein guter Schuler nicht. Aber Sie schprechen sehr gut englisch.

There is not much difference between these two things. It is an inherent fact that matter has a weight. It is also an inherent fact that matter attracts matter with a certain force.

You're right in that statement. But while matter changes over time, and along with it change its properties (weight, make-up,&nbsp;shape and color) we've never seen a change in the laws of physics. Gravity, for example, has been in effect since before man walked the earth.

First, of course do physical laws affect what we see. We see via light and light and its properties are dealt with in Physics.

Second, I didn´t say they AFFECT what we see. I said we DESCRIBE what we see by physical laws. (As we do with physical properties)

I don't know. It doesn't seem right to do that.

Correction: Glauben Sie an Gott?

Nein, ich glaube nicht an Gott. Ich bin ein Atheist.

Ach, schade. Danke f&uuml;r den "correction."&nbsp;Wo wohnen Sie, Herr? Welche Stadt? Ich bleibe in Portland, OR. Ich m&ouml;ge deutsch sprechen. In deutsche-Klasse, meine Name ist "Gustav."

Alex
 
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Morat

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Yes. That's what i was trying to say to you, but when you hear evolve, you automatically assume animals.

&nbsp; Especially when you used the phrase "Darwinian theory" directly above it. Darwin was a biologist, and anything even remotely considered "Darwinian" would be towards biological evolution.

&nbsp;&nbsp; You've really got only yourself to blame for the persistant confusion.

Most, or some? I have a Church full of Creationists, who believe in the 6-day creation.

&nbsp;&nbsp; Most intelligent design folks. Intelligent Design is not 7-day Creation. Completely different kettle of fish.

Evidence means something that can convince a rational person, like a judge. If i went to court to sue someone over "something, sometime, somehow," with no forensic evidence, i'll be laughed at. Abiogenesis is a myth, but a myth that evolution leans on

&nbsp; A myth, really? A lot of biochemists are putting in a lot of work on it. Try here, where Talk.Origins has a Post of the Month on it, or better yet here for Tim Thompson's offhand list of 6 papers and abstracts, or just peruse the Journal of Molecular Biology.

That's one alternative to "darwin did it."

&nbsp;&nbsp; Darwin didn't do anything. He's somewhat dead, remember? Natural selection does it. Because of that, we know the sorts of things to do to minimize it, to deal with it. And even better, we can stick their DNA under the microscope and see it happen.

&nbsp; "God did it" doesn't really explain anything, does it?

&nbsp; You have to admit, it was a lame reply.

OK, i understand the Hubble flow. But we are taking the&nbsp;measurements&nbsp;for Gospel truth.

&nbsp; No we're not. We're taking the measurements as accurate within the tolerances of the measuring devices, and further more, measuring it multiple different ways by different methods and different people.

&nbsp; If you want to say they're wrong, please tell me how. Astronomers would love to know.

&nbsp;It's impossible to measure accurately from our physical standpoint in the&nbsp;universe.So the distance to a galaxy and the galaxy's speed relative to us is very hard to measure.
&nbsp;

&nbsp; Really? Do tell. How so?

&nbsp;But even if the galaries are moving apart, we don't know if they are moving away from a certain spot, an "epicenter."

&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, bollucks to that. That's easy to show. Think about it. If every part of the&nbsp;universe is visibly moving away from every other part of the universe, that's pretty much it right there.

We're both headstrong and stubborn. We can't reach a conclusion on this point. I just believe strongly that evolution without aboigenesis and&nbsp;the BB wouldn't survive.

&nbsp; That's nice. Care to explain why, how, or even give a scenario for it? You know "i think this would happen, and then this, and then this?"

&nbsp;&nbsp; Because, frankly, not only is it an unsupported claim, but rather a ridiculous one.

By these definitions, mathematics is a branch of the tree of science. You can't do anything with chemistry or physics without, at least, basic math. Wouldn't you agree, Morat?

&nbsp;&nbsp; You couldn't do it without a common language, either. Mathematics isn't the study of anything but itself, Alex. No study, no experimentation, no observation. Math is a symbolic language used to convey relationships.

&nbsp; It's darn useful, and very powerful. But it's not science anymore than logic is.

You decide. Both, if you can.

&nbsp; Why? It's your question.

The laws were "set." By whom?

&nbsp; Why does there need to be a who?

You can't believe that they originated by themselves! I think you are pretending that the BB explains this and that, but don't even think so yourself. Is that true?

&nbsp;&nbsp; Why not? What's to stop them? Our physical laws might be the only possible set. There might be an infinite number of sets, and an infinite number of universes. *Shrug*. Why do you presuppose God?

&nbsp;
 
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Morat

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You're right in that statement. But while matter changes over time, and along with it change its properties (weight, make-up,&nbsp;shape and color) we've never seen a change in the laws of physics. Gravity, for example, has been in effect since before man walked the earth.

&nbsp; No it doesn't. Matter stays the same. You're just confusing the arrangement of matter (how many of each type) with actually change.

&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm sorry. If I have a box with 5 red marbles, and 5 green marbles, and add 3 white ones, have I changed the properties of the marbles, or merely the properties of the collection?

&nbsp;&nbsp; Matter is made of protons, neutrons and electrons (which are made up of quarks). Matter is fundamental particles, and these particles have been just as constant as those physical laws.

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