Faith Movement

Originally posted by LouisBooth
Again, I ask you, I have a cold, does that mean I'm more sinful or less faithful then you?

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Yeah, I'd like to see this answered as well. And if it's true, can you give scriptures?

Louis,

Rather than just saying "No, you're wrong.", pls back up with scripture (3 witnesses at least) to say that Jesus suffered sicknesses or had some deformity.

Quote: "Again, I ask you, I have a cold, does that mean I'm more sinful or less faithful then you?"

NO. NO. NO! That's what Quaffer, Hobart and I have been saying over many posts which you obviously do not read.

Humblejoe, you are more reasonable and I believe you read posts carefully, so this answer is for you, not Louis.

Being sick in itself is NOT a sin. But to say that God made you sick IS, simply becos you are then contradicting His Word/saying something about his nature which is not true.

Also, being sick does not mean that you are not a faithful servant of God, or that you are less of a Christian than me. It's got nothing to do with that at all. So pls get that clear.

But if you are sick often, it does mean that you prob do not have faith IN THE AREA of healing or divine health, not becos you are any less of a Christian than I or more sinful, but perhaps for the simple fact that you think healing and health is garbage, or simply are not interested in it, or simply becos you believe everyone ought to be sick. ie you simply dont believe in it. so how can one have faith for it? therefore you fall sick just like every one else in the world.

Now up, to now, have I said this means you are less of a Christian than I or that you are more sinful? NO it's got nothing to do with that. It simply means that in the AREA of healing, I have more faith for healing (becos I believe it not becos I'm better) than you. But likewise, YOU could have more faith in some other area of life than me. Wld you than say that you are a better Christian than me? No right?

You see, the problem with Louis is that he equates being faithful with having faith. We dont. If you say Mr X is a faithful servant of God, I take it you mean he's "loyal" to God and steadfast/consistent in his service to God. But if you say so and so has great faith, I take it you mean he, moves mountains, works miracles by the power of God etc.

Now how does one get faith for healing? Again, it's got nothing to do with who sins more or less or who's a better Christian. Faith comes by hearing repeatedly the Words of Christ. So we hear sermons/scriptures on God's healing and faith comes to help us receive. We receive by faith/grace, not by who's a better Christian.

I hope this answer's your question.

Originally posted by LouisBooth


"No it had to be physically spotless and without disease. Jesus was both physically and spiritually spotless. "

No, you're wrong. He was spiritly spotless. There is no thing in the bible that says to be sick is to be more sinful. that is a twisting on the scripture you have made up. thanks for admitting it though by your words, "I think."

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I'm waiting for the "official" response from a Rabbi on this one.  I'll let you know what he says.

Originally posted by LouisBooth Again, I ask you, I have a cold, does that mean I'm more sinful or less faithful then you?

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In your case Louis. . .you better ask the Holy Spirit. . .He may or may not be more tactful than I will. 

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"No, you're wrong. He was spiritly spotless. There is no thing in the bible that says to be sick is to be more sinful. that is a twisting on the scripture you have made up. 

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Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish

Blemish:

1. complete, whole, entire, sound

   a. complete, whole, entire

   b  whole, sound, healthful

   c complete, entire (of time)

   d sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity

   e [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact

 

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

Blemish:

1. without blemish

   a. as a sacrifice without spot or blemish

2. morally: without blemish, faultless, unblameable

 

Spot:

1. spotless

2. metaph

   a. free from censure, irreproachable

   b. free from vice, unsullied

 

But a black, brown, etc. spot on a lamb isn't necessarily a mark of sickness or disease. I think that using a spotless lamb was more of a symbolic gesture than anything else. The lamb's "imperfections" or spots were symbolic of spiritual imperfection.

"to say that Jesus suffered sicknesses or had some deformity. "

Was he human?

It isn't written that Jesus had to go the bathroom either. do you think he never did?

"NO. NO. NO! That's what Quaffer, Hobart and I have been saying over many posts which you obviously do not read.
"

But that's exactly what your words say. "I'm not a duck" quack quack waddle waddle. LOL..surreee..

"But to say that God made you sick IS, simply becos you are then contradicting His Word/saying something about his nature which is not true. "

I disagree. that's not what I learn scripturally. God has send sickness on people. Paul's blindness for instance.

"But if you are sick often, it does mean that you prob do not have faith IN THE AREA of healing or divine health, not becos you are any less of a Christian than I or more sinful"

ahh..there is the answer. I'm not faithful when I'm sick. quite unbiblical. Jesus proves this scripturally and Tim was sick often. He was quite faithful.

"But if you say so and so has great faith, I take it you mean he, moves mountains, works miracles by the power of God etc. "

I agree, BUT that is not a sign of faithfulness because others can do that same thing and have NO faith in God. Prime example is those he said, "depart from me." to.

"In your case Louis. . .you better ask the Holy Spirit. . .He may or may not be more tactful than I will. "

I prayed about this and the answer was given because you're alive. No other reason. It just happens. It has nothing to do with faith, or lack of faith.

"Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish "

Again, this is spiritually because Christ was a physical sacrifice for a SPIRITUAL thing. Christ was sick sometimes. As for the rabbi, you're asking a person in judism about christianity? okay.....

humblejoe,

If you dont believe spotless lamb means physically in good condition (without sickness too) ou can always check up the Hebrew for spotless or without blemish as the OT says. Better still ask any Jew who's familiar with the animal sacrifices conditions. I'm 100% sure he'll tell you that a sick lamb or bullock will not be accepted by God.

Look at Malachi. God was angry his people offered sick, lame and blind animal sacrifices to him and told them, go offer it to the governor and see what he'll do to you! ie even man will not accept it.

7* Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8* And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
12* But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
13* Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
14* But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

Can you see how whole and perfect the lamb sacrifice had to be for the forgiveness of sins? That's becos the lamb sacrifice wld remind God of his Son's future sacrifice -- the only reason why God forgave in the OT. So how can the Jews in the OT use a sick lamb?

Furthermore, the animal sacrifices were shadows of the final Lamb of God to come. Jesus is the substance not the shadow. So how can the substance be less in quality than the shadow? no Jesus was perfect totally, not just spiritually. ie he was never sick. consider also that he did not inherit the sin nature/fallen nature of Adam (virgin birth).


quote"The lamb's "imperfections" or spots were symbolic of spiritual imperfection."

NO WAY humblejoe, the whole point of the lamb sacrifice is that an innocent lamb had to die in the place of the sinner. Read Leviticus. The sins of the sinner go into the lamb and the lamb is killed instead of him, that's why the sinner can then walk off scot free. On the other hand, the perfection of the lamb is transfered to the sinner, so how can the lamb be imperfect?

Drew, you just make opinions in that post. I see no thing that says Jesus could not or was never sick. The symbolistic nature is there. Christ was human, and that means he got sick from time to time.

"Christ was human, and that means he got sick from time to time."

I'm making opinions? Isnt this a forum for opinion? And dont you think that this statement of yours cannot even be backed up by scripture? You are not even making opinions but wild speculations!

Also, by saying this, you are implying Christ inherited the fallen nature of the first Adam, which wld also mean he wasnt born of a virgin/conceived by the Holy Spirit. And you forget, Christ was also fully God -- the Word was God made flesh.

I just showed humblejoe that in the OT animal sacrifices, a sick, blind or lame lamb was simply not acceptable to God. That's very plain to see in the scriptures I've provided above. He can also check it with any Jew, or even the Hebrew meaning for "spotless" "blameless" in the OT, or simply study the Levitical sacrifices.

It is then up to humblejoe to "see" that the substance/fulfilment (Jesus) is no less spotless than the shadows (those lambs and bulls used in the OT).

Malachi 1:13 -- Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"
I disagree. that's not what I learn scripturally. God has send sickness on people. Paul's blindness for instance.

"Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish "

Again, this is spiritually because Christ was a physical sacrifice for a SPIRITUAL thing. Christ was sick sometimes. As for the rabbi, you're asking a person in judism about christianity? okay.....

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Ah, so now you emply that the Strong's Concordance and experts of the OT law are wrong.

 

Here's a story by John L Moore I thought some might enjoy.

Once upon a time there was a Great King with a beautiful kingdom. Then rebellion occurred and darkness came over the land. So the Great King sent His prince and the prince gave his life in a valiant victory to free the land and the people. And the prince said to the subjects before leaving, "All authority and power is now yours. Do business in this land until I return."

But gradually the subjects lost sight of this commandment and rather than occupying positions of authority they gave place by becoming entangled in civilian life.

 

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"WE DON'T WANT POWER TO REMAIN!"

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Turning their faces to heaven, they cried out: "We don't want power to remain, O King. We want to go home and be with you."

So, by the rule of abdication, the darkness possessed the high places. From these mountains the enemy launched fiery darts at the people. Unfortunately, the people who had not been introduced to the Prince did not see the arrows as fiery darts. They saw the arrows as innocent displays of light.

"The enemy is evil and his darts will kill you!" the King's people shouted from their fortresses.

"Nonsense," said the unenlightened. "This is all harmless fun."

 

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"MOUNT STORY, THE HIGHEST MOUNTAIN

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Now everyone knew that one of the highest mountains in the land was "Mount Story." From there the enemy launched some of his most powerful devices and also had the perspective to spot and target the children of the land.

Some within the fortress wanted to storm the mountain of Story and topple the enemy.

"Oh, no," said others. "There is only untruth on Story. We must protest the weaponry and preach against it, because Story lies in the Land of Fiction and everyone knows that Fiction is a lie!"

But a few brave souls ventured forth. John Bunyan was one of the first and he did great damage to the enemy and took much land, but sadly, it was the people in the fortresses, especially the leaders, who opposed him the strongest.

 

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SPECIAL FORCES SENT AGAINST THE MOUNTAIN

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George McDonald led a raid of special forces against the mountain. So did G.K. Chesterton and Dorothy Sayers. Some wore the uniforms and carried the banner of the King, while others, like Charles Dickens and Harper Lee, were covert warriors who were not as easily seen. [Editor's note: See #4 below for info on Charles Dickens--Was he a believer?]

J.R.R. Tolkien took much land and occupied many sides on the Mountain of Story and from these heights he broadcast disguised stories of his own. C.S. Lewis followed his path and did much harm to the enemy and continues to do so today, for that is the great power of Story-- The messenger may pass on but the Story continues to live!

But for all these victories the enemy still held much ground, especially the highest areas where new weapons were forged.

 

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"WE MUST CONTROL THE VISUAL," THE ENEMY SAID

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"The Progress of Story has been from oral to print to visual," the Enemy briefed his troops. "We must especially control the visual."

Meanwhile, in the fortresses, some of the King's subjects developed a plan of their own. "We don't need to attack Mount Story," they said to one another. "We can create a mountain of our own." So with great effort they used pails and shovels and some fashioned tall mounds, but sadly, the mounds reached only as high as their fortress ceilings. Still, many planted flags there and declared the battle won.

Meanwhile, back on Mount Story, the enemy planned his great offensive. He had correctly scouted and seen that the hope of the people were their young.

"Keep the adults busy with their religious affairs," he told his minions. "And while they are distracted my strongmen will kidnap and enslave their children. Then, in due time, I will turn their own children against them."

 

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LURING THE CHILDREN WILL "BE EASY"

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"How will you lure the children from the fortresses?" his lieutenants asked.

"That will be easy. The adults have made a place the young do not want to be. We just have to sneak up and open the back door."

But the Evil One had forgotten that he did not wage war merely against flesh and blood. The Prince still oversaw the land in the name of His Father and the Prince had his own plan.

"I will bring forth a generation that has the Story within them," the Prince declared. "I will especially seek out the orphan for I am a father to the fatherless. I will teach them of my ways and they will hear my voice and walk in my power."

The Enemy heard of this plan and he quickly fashioned his counterfeit.

"Call out to all orphans, especially those who are eleven years old," he ordered. "Tell them we have a special school for them. A charming place. They will only have to stay there for a spell."

"But what about the adults in the fortresses?" his lieutenants queried.

"Don't worry about them," said the Evil One. "I will keep them busy worrying about my work and self-righteously protesting my designs."

 

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THROWING OBSTACLES IN THE PATHS OF THE WARRIORS

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"How about the warriors who are still attacking Mount Story," they asked.

"Weary them," the Evil One said. "Put many obstacles in their paths and cut them off from all supply. If they reach high ground they can call the children upward."

"And where is this school where we are to take the children," the lieutenants asked.

"Fools!" the Evil One hissed. "There is no school! There is only a pit. Our power is based on deception."

And thus the battle began and still rages. Many children even now are led astray while adults argue whether dark is dark and light is light; whether fiction is true or if there is any contemporary purpose for power, and if so, how to market it.

But warriors of the King still go forth. Called and sent, they assail the high places. They are committed to conquer because they have no plans for a kingdom of their own, but are willing to die in order to establish the King's standard.

And the spoils of war is an entire generation of souls. Souls destined for warfare service. Be it one side or the other. John L. Moore www.johnlmoore.com

http://theelijahlist.com

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"


"In your case Louis. . .you better ask the Holy Spirit. . .He may or may not be more tactful than I will. "

I prayed about this and the answer was given because you're alive. No other reason. It just happens. It has nothing to do with faith, or lack of faith.

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 Wow Louis, that's a deep message in those 2 words. The Holy Spirit telling you that your carnel man (flesh ), is all too alive and well so He had to step aside and let the enemy make you sick so you (man being carnel) could learn to get out of the way so your spirit man can live instead.

He was more tactfull

"? And dont you think that this statement of yours cannot even be backed up by scripture"

Was Christ human?


"you are implying Christ inherited the fallen nature of the first Adam, "

Again, here you equate being sick with being sinful. This is not true. Hobs, please take not here!

Good story quaf and I'd say it warns us not to believe that faith is Greater then God lest we be discieved.

"The Holy Spirit telling you that your carnel man "

Nope, if you're a christian your fleshly nature is dead and Gone. That's what being a new creation is all about.

Being sick isn't something always from "the enemy".

Louis,

I'm still waiting for scripture proof from you that Jesus fell sick from time to time.

Also, the fallen nature of Adam includes the physical ie Adam wld grow old and die, have to work hard with plenty of sweat, Eve wld have painful childbirth.

Pls show scripture proof that Christ inherited all this also despite his virgin birth.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The Holy Spirit telling you that your carnel man "

Nope, if you're a christian your fleshly nature is dead and Gone. That's what being a new creation is all about.

Being sick isn't something always from "the enemy".

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Well, since that's true, why do you still sin?

"I'm still waiting for scripture proof from you that Jesus fell sick from time to time. "

And I'm going to give it to you after you answer my question. Is Christ human?

"Pls show scripture proof that Christ inherited all this also despite his virgin birth."

So Christ wasn't in the flesh then? If he didn't grow old, then you say he was a baby all his life? that's pretty amazing that a bady and reach up to a man and touch his ear. Never seen a baby that can do that. Plus you say that then the imperishable body in the bible Christ got he already had, which is false. Weather you like it or not Christ was human and got sick from time to time.

"Well, since that's true, why do you still sin?"

Because I fall back into the habits I once had. Just like a free man from jail I sometimes feel like I need to do this or this when I don't have to. Again, the old nature is dead and Gone, its cruxified with Christ.

Christ was fully human, fully God. But the human side of him was not fallen/cursed like Adam/Eve after sin entered them. IOW he was perfect man - soul, spirit and body.

So, I'm still waiting for you Louis, to prove to us with clear-cut scripture that Christ fell sick from time to time and/or that being human too (besides being 100% God), it means he inherited the fallen nature of Adam and Eve.

Come one senior mod, prove it with scripture!

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Because I fall back into the habits I once had. Just like a free man from jail I sometimes feel like I need to do this or this when I don't have to. Again, the old nature is dead and Gone, its cruxified with Christ.

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In 1 Cor 3:3 Paul told the Corinthian Christians that they were still carnal because there were "envying, strife, and divisions" among them. And in Romans 7:13-15 Paul refers to his slipping into doing things fleshly as carnal.

However Louis, the logic that your trying to use is exactly the logic that should be applied to your whole walk with God, which we have only through faith in Christ Jesus. 

The Bible says that "old things have passed away and all things are new".  The old nature is dead and gone.  There is no reason for it to rise up and show itself. But because we don't understand totally what that means, we allow carnality to overwhelm us physically, emotionally, and spiritually. 

As Paul states in the last verse of Romans 7  "O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from the shackles of this body of death? O thank God! He will! through Jesus Christ the Anointed One, our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Amplified) 

We are delivered from the shackles of this body of death.  Whether it be spiritually, physically, or emotionally.  We don't have to remain sick spiritually.  We don't have to remain sick physically. We don't have to remain sick emotionally.  Whole means whole.

I suspect that you will find something dissagreeable about this post but that's OK.  Your logic above was correct and exactly the point we've worked so hard to help you understand.    

"But the human side of him was not fallen/cursed like Adam/Eve after sin entered them. "

so you think that sickness means you're sinful then?

"in Romans 7:13-15 Paul refers to his slipping into doing things fleshly as carnal. "

Here he is not refering to christians per the "slaves to sin" statement in verse 14. He is refering to a christian before they became a christian, ie looking back before they recieved Christ. None of this passage can be applied to a christian, for their "carnal man" is dead and gone.

In the 1 cor passage Paul is describing just what I told you. That is why in verse 1 and 2 he says, "I could not adress you as spiritual...mere infants in christ." they are still falling back into the "old" routine even though the fleshly nature is dead and gone.

"We don't have to remain sick physically. "

I disagree. Just because I'm sick doesn't mean I'm not fully in the will of God. He is concerned with our spirutal health.

"I suspect that you will find something dissagreeable about this post but that's OK. Your logic above was correct and exactly the point we've worked so hard to help you understand. "

Yup, you got it mostly right from what I see though. Its okay No, you and drew have shown me that if you're sick then you're sinful, which is not the case at all.

"But the human side of him was not fallen/cursed like Adam/Eve after sin entered them. "

so you think that sickness means you're sinful then?
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Lemme ask you louis, if Adam and Eve did not sin, do you think they would have grown old, fallen sick from time to time and died? Or put another way, do you think their bodies (b4 they sinned) wld be susceptible to illness and the ageing process?

if u say yes, then it wld mean God created something kind of faulty.