97% of the universe is gone?

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,711
3,761
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟242,764.00
Faith
Atheist
Yeah, I am still trying to find the information on that. But from what I remember they have only found 3% of the stuff that is out there in the ground to find.

I see that figure now and then that we only know 3 to 5% of what there is to know. That means 95 to 97% is unknown.

The question has been asked: why does science act so arrogant about what they know, when they in effect do not really know all that much about anything.

Perhaps because you do use very different meanings of the term "knowing"?

"Science" knows quite a lot about a lot of things. They even know something about the 97% "missing" stuff. They know that it is there, that it a gravitational pull and such... they KNOW about it.

They just cannot detect it.
 
Upvote 0

Mistermystery

Here's looking at you kid
Apr 19, 2004
4,220
169
✟5,275.00
Faith
Atheist
It is like the constant drip of water. There are people on here that are like a bunch of little kids most of the time. They have very little maturity. The result is they chase people away from them. Now if that is what they want to do, that is fine, they have obtained their objective. I am just wondering if that is their objective to end discussion and shut down the board?
Vica versa the creationist side.

Welcome to the C and E- debateforum, enjoy your stay.
 
Upvote 0

Logic_Fault

Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Ubique
Dec 16, 2004
1,299
70
✟16,844.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Yeah, the point is if Science only knows 3% of that there is to know in the known universe, how can they say that their theorys have any accuracy.
Who says scientists know 3% of everything there is to know in the universe? If we knew that we know 3% we must then know what the other 97% is in order to know that we only know 3%. Wow. That was confusing...

Besides, you're talking about undocumented or unseen matter in the universe, not "everything there is to know." There's a difference between matter and knowledge ya know.


EDIT: Drat. EvoDan beat me to it.
 
Upvote 0

Logic_Fault

Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Ubique
Dec 16, 2004
1,299
70
✟16,844.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I see that figure now and then that we only know 3 to 5% of what there is to know. That means 95 to 97% is unknown.
How can we know we only know 3% if we don't know how much there is to know?

It'd be like me telling you I've read 3% of a book when I have no idea how many pages are in it.

The question has been asked: why does science act so arrogant about what they know, when they in effect do not really know all that much about anything.
The very same can be said about religion and you'd be exponentially more accurate if you did.
 
Upvote 0

Chalnoth

Senior Contributor
Aug 14, 2006
11,361
384
Italy
✟28,653.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Do you want me to put you on ignore? Because I am getting tired of people on here being so mean all the time.
It's because I am a scientist. I am doing research work in cosmology right now, and am asking these questions about dark matter and dark energy. I am saying that you don't understand science because you demonstrate that you don't understand it again and again and again.

Understanding the current theories in cosmology and their implications is what I do. Working with current theories is how I pay the bills.

You are taking the statement that only a few percent of the universe is made up of baryonic matter to say that we don't know anything about the rest of the universe. This is blatantly false. We know quite a lot about dark matter and dark energy.

And not only that, it's not like percent composition has ever had anything to do with knowledge. Let's imagine that you knew everything science knows about every current living species on Earth. That's only a tiny fraction of a percent of the mass of the Earth, so even knowing all that, do you know only a tiny fraction of a percent of all there is to know about the Earth?

Certainly not! Life is hugely more complex than the bulk of the Earth. The same is true with baryonic matter vs. dark matter and dark energy: the strong interactions of baryonic matter that we are used to make it so that there is tremendously more knowledge to be had when it comes to baryonic matter. Dark matter and dark energy are many, many times simpler. It's just that that comparitively smaller amount of information is much harder to get to. Mass has nothing to do with it.
 
Upvote 0

0rion

Regular Member
Jun 11, 2006
434
13
✟8,135.00
Faith
Seeker
You guys are being a little hard on JohnR.

I have seen that show, it is nothing new, it aired some months ago. The commentator does/could create a lot of misconception to listeners that would not know anything about the subject. In my opinion, I think the program does that to create hype and get more viewers.
 
Upvote 0

Mincus

Regular Member
Aug 8, 2006
146
3
41
York, England
✟7,793.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
You guys are being a little hard on JohnR.

I have seen that show, it is nothing new, it aired some months ago. The commentator does/could create a lot of misconception to listeners that would not know anything about the subject. In my opinion, I think the program does that to create hype and get more viewers.

Yeah, I was wondering if it was a re-run of an old show from when less WAS known and the dark matter/energy theory hadn't as much evidence as it has now... No idea how far back that would have to be though...

If John could provide the name of the show maybe this could be checked?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,136
51,515
Guam
✟4,909,757.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Do you want me to put you on ignore? Because I am getting tired of people on here being so mean all the time.

Hang in there, John ---

[bible]Matthew 9:24[/bible]
 
Upvote 0

[serious]

'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA
Site Supporter
Aug 29, 2006
15,100
1,716
✟72,846.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There was a program on TV that talks about how 97% of the universe is missing. They say that science can not find it. How ever they can measure it's effect so they decided that 97% of the universe is made up of dark energy and dark matter that they can not find in anyway other then to study it's effect on the 3% of the universe that we do know about.
We have "observed" dark matter during a collision of 2 galaxies. Dark matter has little interaction other than gravity so it's hard for us to detect where it is other than rare instances where we can observe gravitation lensing from it and such. We were able to calculate that it must exist a while, but it was unverified until fairly recently.

And looks like I'm a late comer to this but I'll post anyway ;)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

0rion

Regular Member
Jun 11, 2006
434
13
✟8,135.00
Faith
Seeker
Yeah, I was wondering if it was a re-run of an old show from when less WAS known and the dark matter/energy theory hadn't as much evidence as it has now... No idea how far back that would have to be though...

I do not think it is that old... it primiered in the Science Channel about 1-3 months ago.

If John could provide the name of the show maybe this could be checked?

Better yet, I found the video on google.video.com

Here's the link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8114580690921328857
 
Upvote 0

Chalnoth

Senior Contributor
Aug 14, 2006
11,361
384
Italy
✟28,653.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Better yet, I found the video on google.video.com

Here's the link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8114580690921328857
Ah, thanks. I'd say that summed up the consensus of the universe as of about a year or two ago.

But I would like to say something: there seemed to be an overtone in the video about the idea that overthrowing Newton was somehow taboo. This is absolutely ridiculous: Einstein already did that. We would have no qualms about modifying gravity further. But it's just that the specific modifications required to explain dark matter were so strange and off-the-wall that few liked to consider it.

Physics at the time, after all, was already very much aware of the existence of particles that are very hard to detect (such as neutrinos). It wasn't such a stretch to believe that similar particles that we haven't yet detected might possibly be dark matter. Much more pleasing, then, to posit that particles which had already theorized to exist be considered for dark matter, instead of inventing some seemingly ridiculous modification of gravity.

Anyway, cosmology is progressing today at an unbelievable pace. It has been estimated that the astronomical data that we are collecting is doubling every year: this is a statement that every year, we are collecting as much data about the cosmos as has been collected in all of human history. And this film is out of date on one very significant point: the bullet cluster. The finding of this cluster is, I believe, a conclusive disproof of the modified newtonian dynamics models, and very strong evidence for the existence of dark matter.

There has also been very tentative evidence of the existence of dark matter within our own galaxy by looking very carefully at the galaxy and subtracting out all of the light whose sources we know: the remainder could well be a direct signature of dark matter. This is very tentative (any time you do that much subtraction it's dangerous), but potentially very exciting.
 
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Hang in there, John ---
I think about how many people I have seen die, because they are hard headed and stupid. In fact I almost died for being hard headed and stupid myself. But then I was watching 911 and they saw more of their friends die in five min. then I have seen die in my whole life. I only lost one friend on 911. So I guess it could be a lot worse, because I see some people out there that are going though some real suffering.

Of course I can always just turn the computer off.
But what you can not turn off is caring about people and wanting them to receive the very best of what God has for them.
 
Upvote 0

TemperateSeaIsland

Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi
Aug 7, 2005
3,195
171
Wales, UK
✟21,785.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I find the subject of dark matter very interesting. Just a question to chalnoth, do we have a model of what dark matter actually is?
Im aware of detecting it through gravity but I was unaware of other methods of detecting it, could these indicate what other properties it posseses?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mincus

Regular Member
Aug 8, 2006
146
3
41
York, England
✟7,793.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I do not think it is that old... it primiered in the Science Channel about 1-3 months ago.



Better yet, I found the video on google.video.com

Here's the link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8114580690921328857
Ahh, nice find. :)
Heh, a Horizon episode. Wasn't expecting one of those. Watch them quite a lot.


Ah, thanks. I'd say that summed up the consensus of the universe as of about a year or two ago.

That's what I thought it might. Hence giving John the benefit of the doubt for a change. ;)
Although his wording in the OP could have been written better, imo.
 
Upvote 0

Soul Searcher

The kingdom is within
Apr 27, 2005
14,799
3,846
63
West Virginia
✟39,544.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
This 97% - 3% knowledge just cracks me up :D

Truth is we do not know anywhere near 3% of what there is to know in our universe, more like .00000001%

Consider this. We do not know everything there is to know about our own bodies, less about our planet and much less about our nearest neighboring planet, still less about those planets farther out in our solar system, and pretty much nothing about planets outside our solar system of which there could easily be billions.

For that matter there could potentially be billions of creatures that know 100s of times more than we do scattered all over the universe and we would not even know they are there.

What strikes me as funny though is when someone puts down science as not knowing things while clinging to a literal creation account written down by men that knew far far less than we do today.

Bottom line is what little we do know is rejected by the YEC in favor of fables and superstition.
 
Upvote 0

Chalnoth

Senior Contributor
Aug 14, 2006
11,361
384
Italy
✟28,653.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I find the subject of dark matter very interesting. Just a question to chalnoth, do we have a model of what dark matter actually is?
Im aware of detecting it through gravity but I was unaware of other methods of detecting it, could these indicate what other properties it posseses?
Well, the problem is we have too many models for what dark matter might be. Right now we have four basic limitations on the properties of dark matter:
1. It has to explain the halos of invisible, weakly-interacting matter in which galaxies sit.
2. It has to explain the CMB anisotropy pattern (this forces the dark matter to be made up of massive particles...eliminating the possibility for it to be made up of neutrinos, the only weakly-interacting particle we know of today, because neutrinos are too light).
3. It has to have properties which allow it to be created in the exact right amounts in the early universe.
4. It has to be weakly-interacting enough that we won't have seen it with the experiments designed to date.

Right now, there are a number groups attempting a number of different ways to discover dark matter. Scientists in particle accelerators are looking for missing mass (this would be a signature of a massive, weakly-interacting particle whose properties could be measured by observing the particles which the detectors do detect). There are a number of underground experiments searching for weakly-interacting particles that pass through the Earth in tremendous numbers. Some groups are looking for decays or annihilations of dark matter particles by searching the skies for the products of such events.

There are others, too, but this is just what I can remember off the top of my head.

As for the models, right now supersymmetry, which describes a unification between the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces, and is also a component of the vast majority of string theory models, provides the inspiration for most dark matter candidates.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rmwilliamsll

avid reader
Mar 19, 2004
6,006
334
✟7,946.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
Where exactly might it go ?

Behind the universe ?

it is not missing as in gone away or lost.
but missing as in not visible.


like the usage in "i'm missing my favorite TV show because i'm stuck in traffic".

the missing matter/energy is know to exist because of it's effect on the visible.
 
Upvote 0