GAP: Ruin-Reconstruction & darkness

John, I adressed this in the other thread;

א בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

ב וְהָאָרֶץ, הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ, וְחֹשֶׁךְ, עַל-פְּנֵי תְהוֹם; וְרוּחַ אֱלֹהִים, מְרַחֶפֶת עַל-פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם.
2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

I don't see how ruin and restoration could happen, after these two verses there is no oppurtinity for ruin and restoration to happen, in the so called "sequence" of creation.

So as most ruin and restoration theorists contend it happens in verse 2, but how! When there is a definite "unshaped" Earth. תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ. תֹהוּ in verse 2 translated pretty much means empty, even if the had been "ruin" the earth wouldn't be empty. In conclusion gap theory is biblically unsound.

JohnR7 said:

I explained to you how ruin could happen, though a volcano. Science can show you the ruin that takes place from a volcano. Even recently there have been volcanic eruptions in places like Mount St Helen.You can see how ash, dust and smoke can block the sun and cause the darkness we read about in the Bible.

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And I have shown you it has NO place at all within the bible.

Also when a volcano erupts it is not ruin, it's just another one of Earths volcanic processes.

JohnR7 said:

I explained to you how ruin could happen, though a volcano. Science can show you the ruin that takes place from a volcano. Even recently there have been volcanic eruptions in places like Mount St Helen.You can see how ash, dust and smoke can block the sun and cause the darkness we read about in the Bible.

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John, I don't think volcanic eruptions cause the entire Earth to go dark. If it is an extremely explosive volcano ( which are quite rare), it can throw dust and ash 30 miles into the stratosphere. The stratosphere has no weather, so the dust and ash remains up there possibly for years and circles the Earth on the Jet stream. That dust and ash reflects some of the sunlight entering the Earth which can lower the global temperature.

This isn't going to support your argument about the Earth being a black void. And of course, there have been 4 super volcano explosions, and numerous extremely destructive explosions in the past 30 million years. Does the "Ruin and Reconstruction theory" happen multiple times?

JohnR7 said:

All that you have shown me is that you do not know the Bible. You can not deny the scientific evidence for the Bible, so you try to create a strawman arguement in order to deny the plain language of the Bible itself.

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John, all you have shown is you complete and utter lack of understanding of

A) Science
B) Hebrew
C) And mainly the most important the bible

If you think I'm wrong please show me and the rest of the forum why I am wrong, all you have done at the moment is cast around baseless assertions.

I suggest you actually learn what a Strawman fallacy is, I have constructed no such thing. I have dissected you argument using Hebrew and English, and shown it to be completely fallacious .

I have not rejected scientific evidence for the bible, I have rejected you non biblical "Gap theory" and show using Hebrew and English why it is not biblically sound.

JohnR7 said:

All that you have shown me is that you do not know the Bible. You can not deny the scientific evidence for the Bible, so you try to create a strawman arguement in order to deny the plain language of the Bible itself.

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Err.. not only is it not a strawman argument, but he's made a good point.

JohnR7 said:

Some people do not realize that the GAP theory is a Ruin Reconstruction theory. So the only thing you need to do is show that ruin and reconstruction has taken place.

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I'm sorry but I have to stop you here. You're making a logical fallacy here; Gap theory = ruin and reconstruction (or whatever), but that doesn't mean that every ruin / reconstruction thing means that is tell-tale evidence in favour of the gap theory.

What we are talking about in this post is darkness. Different people have different theorys and opinions about what darkness means in the Bible.

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uh.. okay.

Genesis 1:2a
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

According to the Gap theory, the darkness that was upon the earth was due to dust. At the end of the quote is a nice link to show what science has to say about this subject.

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I don't see where in your bible quote it says that it was due to dust.

Nor do I see how it means that it was a volcano. For instance an eclipse, a cloud, or any object in front of the sun can cause "darkness upon the face of the deep". And if it was really dust, why not an astroid inpact? Or why not a huge sandstorm?

It is clear to see how the earth could easily be in a state of ruin.

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Okay... So uh. let's assume that it is. Now all you have to show that it did, and that the bible verses are related to said eruption.

Some people believe that mass extinctions have been caused by this volcanic dust. The wind can carry the dust up to 10,000 miles. If a volcano had errupted a city like New York could be covered by up to 55 feet of dust and ash in a very short period of time.

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This doesn't make sense to me. "and if it was twice the size, it could have covered new york in 110 feet of dust. Imagine if it was 20 times the size!"

There is clearly scientific evidence that Ruin can be associated with darkness.

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And so far there is no scientific evidence that "ruin" is associated with a biblequote, nor can I see where this volcano comes from, or what their relation is.

JohnR7 said:

I explained to you how ruin could happen, though a volcano. Science can show you the ruin that takes place from a volcano. Even recently there have been volcanic eruptions in places like Mount St Helen.You can see how ash, dust and smoke can block the sun and cause the darkness we read about in the Bible.

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Yes, but you haven't shown how the darkness referenced in the bible is due to volcanic eruptions. Show us your scientific evidence, please.

dawiyd said:

I don't see how ruin and restoration could happen, after these two verses there is no oppurtinity for ruin and restoration to happen, in the so called "sequence" of creation.

So as most ruin and restoration theorists contend it happens in verse 2, but how! When there is a definite "unshaped" Earth. תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ. תֹהוּ in verse 2 translated pretty much means empty, even if the had been "ruin" the earth wouldn't be empty. In conclusion gap theory is biblically unsound.

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Why wouldnt it be empty? There are several passages in scripture that dont appear to be strictly chronological. Two short verses are hardly enough to describe the entire state of affairs. Take for example, Daniel 9:26:
"After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

Then Daniel 9:27 says:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [i] In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him"

In verse 26 the temple is destroyed. In 27 its back. There has to be a time gap where alot happened which isnt mentioned here. Alternatively vs 27 may not even follow 26. It could be a different perspective of the same set of events.

JohnR7 said:

You got it backwards. I showed you how ash, smoke and dust can cause darkness. Do you deny the scientifice evidence that dust can cause darkness?

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And I showed you that the origins of said dust doesn't have to be due to volcanic eruptions. Why are we posting here, you're supposed to awnser the questions, comments, and other posts people have posted against your gap-theory.

So yes, Dust can cause a deminishment in light, but I haven't seen your evidence that the " darkness" in that bible quote is either from a volcanic eruption, a sandstorm, anything else really. It could mean that a big cloud was in fron of the sun.

Let me quote you again:

According to the Gap theory, the darkness that was upon the earth was due to dust. At the end of the quote is a nice link to show what science has to say about this subject.

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No, there isn't any reference to dust in that bible quote, nor does it really seem to be reffering to any sort of volcanic eruptions. If it were, I for one would have used more pressing terms like "the air was toxic" or "the earth opened up" or something like that. What I see in that bible quote is that "there was darkness" somewhere on the Earth.

The Bible describes creation in Genesis 1:2 as "formless and void". A planet wracked with geological activity is not formless and void. If one does not have well-defined continents, faults, plate tectonics, and general structure of the Earth's mantle and core, then the whole idea of a volcano spewing out of the middle of a "formless and void" planet is ridiculous, as is the idea of a volcano causing a planet to become "formless and void".

Operation Dark Storm comes from the Animatrix, not the Bible.

J0hnSm1th said:

Why wouldnt it be empty? There are several passages in scripture that dont appear to be strictly chronological. Two short verses are hardly enough to describe the entire state of affairs. Take for example, Daniel 9:26:
"After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

Then Daniel 9:27 says:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [i] In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him"

In verse 26 the temple is destroyed. In 27 its back. There has to be a time gap where alot happened which isnt mentioned here. Alternatively vs 27 may not even follow 26. It could be a different perspective of the same set of events.

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Footnotes from Artscroll:

9:26 I.e., Agrippa, the last Jewish king, at the end of the second Temple era. After his death, the prince of this verse – the Roman Titus, would command the destruction of the Temple, which will not rebuilt until after the War of Gog and Magog in messianic times (Rashi).

9:27 The Roman emperor would make a treaty with the Jewish nation for seven years, but for the second half of the term the Romans would violate that covenant and impede the Temple service. The “mute abomination,” i.e. a temple idolatry, was erected by the emperor Hadrian on the Temple Mount (Rashi).

JohnR7 said:

It is clear to see how the earth could easily be in a state of ruin. Just like New York was in ruin after the collapse of the twin towers. Dust and ash and smoke filled and covered the city so that there was a darkness that was the same a night.

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Reports of New York's ruin have been greatly exaggerated. The city was locked down securely in the days following 9/11, but hardly ruin.

And while the smoke and dust from the towers created a cloud visible from space which lingered for weeks, it was not "the same as night."

On a larger scale, however, it is easy to see how a massive catastrophe could cause massive chaos.

Some people believe that mass extinctions have been caused by this volcanic dust. The wind can carry the dust up to 10,000 miles. If a volcano had errupted a city like New York could be covered by up to 55 feet of dust and ash in a very short period of time.

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Not unlike Pompeii, although it should be noted that it was the gases, not so much the dust, which was the immediate cause of death there, resulting in an archeological wonder -- very little actual damage; the city more or less intact.

This is what we are talking about when we say that the GAP theory is a theory of Ruin and REconstrustion. There is clearly scientific evidence that Ruin can be associated with darkness.[/quote]