a preterist question

Hi Michael, thanks for your challenging comments and questions...

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You are surely welcome.  God bless you for your calm and patience.

 Genesis 3:4-5, "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

It is wrongly assumed that the serpent here is an angel that had sinned, called "Satan". Having been thrown out of heaven for his sin, he came to earth and tempted Eve to sin. The passage talks about "the serpent." The words "satan" and "devil" do not occur in the whole of the book of Genesis.  The characters involved in the Genesis record of the fall of man are: God, Adam, Eve and the serpent. Nobody else is mentioned. There is no evidence that anything got inside the serpent to make it do what it did. Paul says, "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Corinthians 11:3) - notice that Paul doesn't mention the "devil" beguiling Eve.

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But Franklin, why would God create a creature specifically to cause man to sin?  That would be like God tempted man, hence contradicting James 1:13.  You still have not answered my other challenges as to the large number of references to the devil in the New Testament.  If I am to believe that Satan is not real, then can you explain who this "Satan" was that God talked to in the book of Job?  Who is this "Satan" in 1 Chronicles 21:1?  Who is this "Satan" in Zechariah 3?  Often the term "accuser" is used to mean "Satan".  Can not "serpent" mean the same?

Well, you said yourself that you agreed that God didn't create us with a sinful nature right?  Now I ask you, why would God choose to create us with a sinful nature?  That just doesn't make any sence.  The nature of sin, the nature of justice, and the nature of God are such that it is impossible for men to be born sinners. First, sin is voluntary, second, sin is not a substance, and third, sin is a responsible choice.

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I am confused here.  I said God did not create man with a sinful nature.  However, I did say that man was created with a free will, with the possibility to sin.  Otherwise, God created automatons that follow Him, which God clearly does not want, otherwise there would be no such thing as faith, grace, justification, etc.

I've listened to Sproul a number of times, his insight on the Olivet Discourse is somewhat interesting, however, I don't see where his views are any different than the futurists and the dispensationalists.  I think he labels himself as a partial preterist because of his view of the fall of the Jewish age in AD70. Most dispensationalist will take that position also.  The thousand years you are referring to is symbolic of completeness and not a literal thousand years as traditionally taught by futurists 

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Franklin, you make those comments like they leave a bad taste in your mouth. Do you believe that non-preterists or partial preterists are not true Christians?

In Christ,

Michael

I know that no one is attacking me, but I feel as if I am a lone soul trying to argue this point. 

 I will try to answer the other objectors here as soon as I am able.  I will say that I am not a theologian, and the argument that Davo has brought will take me some time to answer.  Thank you all very much for challenging debate.  I will return! 

Hi SimpleChristian

It's funny....I was wondering that all this preterist stuff was and was going to post on it...but after someone explained that idea to me and what it meant I laughed so hard at the absolute far-end ridiculousness of it, the incredible illogical twists and turns that have to be made to even begin to consider such a wackado idea....hold on...I'm laughing again....

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I understand the reason for your mirth; I felt it myself the first time I learned about it. But preterism (both partial and full) is far from being a "wackado" idea once you get past the knee-jerk reaction and actually study what it is says. I laughed at it too, but my laughing didn't last for very long ...


Hey LostthenFound,

Take your time, and welcome to the forum!

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Originally posted by SimpleChristian
It's funny....I was wondering that all this preterist stuff was and was going to post on it...but after someone explained that idea to me and what it meant I laughed so hard at the absolute far-end ridiculousness of it, the incredible illogical twists and turns that have to be made to even begin to consider such a wackado idea....hold on...I'm laughing again....

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Hi Simple,
I'm curious about the "explaination" you received about preterism.
Was it from a Preterist? If not, have you checked what you were told with a preterist to see if the explaination you received was accurate?

Instead of giggling yourself into oblivion, you might want to dig in to preterism a but deeper before you dismiss it outright.
I'd be glad to attempt clarify any questions you may have.

Peace in Christ,
P70

Originally posted by lostthenfound


Originally posted by parousia70 :
Scripture is clear that Each man is tempted by his own desires, and Mans heart is evil and deceitful above all else (including satan)


Please cite your scripture source.

In Christ,

Michael

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James 1:14, Jeremiah 17:9

One of the original questions in this thread was:

but what about "paranormal" activity? Ghosts, pyschic abilities, and the like... Typical evangelical explinations pin these things on demonic activty, but if the devil and his demons are bound up, what might be behind such "paranormal" events?

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The Spiritual realm exists all around us, we just don't have spiritual eyes and can't see it. However from time to time God will open someone's eyes so they can see it. For example Balaam had his eyes open in Numbers 22:21-39 specifically v31

Then the Lord opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.

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Here is another good example in 2Kings6:8-23, specifically v16-17

16 "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them".17 And Elisha prayed, "O Lord , open his eyes so he may see." Then the Lord opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

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We see that Elisha could see into the spiritual realm, but his servant could not until God opened his eyes.

Maybe sometimes today God 'opens' eyes for a brief instance and we are able to see into the spiritual realm??

Just my thoughts. See Ya, IB

Great post IB. I fully agree.

I believe the revealed cosmology of the bible concerning all things "visible and invisible" (Col 1:16-17; Heb 11:3) shows us that God's created universe is tongue-in-groove and side-by-side (so to speak). The visible and invisible realms are infused and intertwined.

The Jack Van Impe notion that God's Heaven begins at the borderline edge just beyond the furthest reaches of our "outer space" is pure nonsense.

GW


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http://www.preteristvision.org

The original post was about paranormal activity which I have seen and know is real . Paranormal activity is not caused by dead people , as they are dead and awaiting a resurrection , this leads me to beleive it is none other than satan and his mates .
I am not insane or on drugs , nor am I gullible , I have checked these things out for myself .
If the idea that satan is alive and running about the place bothers some people , then so be it .

  Originally posted by lostthenfound
 why would God create a creature specifically to cause man to sin? 

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That's a good question and that is just the point, God didn't create the serpent to cause man to sin, man was and still is drawn away by his own desire to commit sin. 

   That would be like God tempted man, hence contradicting James 1:13.  You still have not answered my other challenges as to the large number of references to the devil in the New Testament.  If I am to believe that Satan is not real, then can you explain who this "Satan" was that God talked to in the book of Job?  Who is this "Satan" in 1 Chronicles 21:1?  Who is this "Satan" in Zechariah 3?  Often the term "accuser" is used to mean "Satan".  Can not "serpent" mean the same? [/B]

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God doesn't tempt us with sin and the scripture doesn't contradict itself.  As for your questions about the references to the devil in the NT.... I think we need to look to the scriptures to find out the source of good and evil.  In the world generally, especially in the so-called 'Christian' world, there is the idea that the good things in life come from God and the bad things from the Devil or Satan. "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me...I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isaiah 45:5-7,22)  What does the scripture reveal to you about the source of good and evil?

Look up the following passages and then you tell me where the source of evil and good comes from:

(Deuteronomy 29:21, Joshua 23:15, 1Samuel 16:14; 19:9; 25:39, 2Samuel 12:11; 17:14, 1Kings 9:9; 21:21, 2Kings 22:16, 2Chronicles 18:22; 34:24, Isaiah 31:1, Jeremiah 32:42, Ezekiel 5:16, Micah 1:12; 2:3).