We were discussing Jesus baptism bu John and I asked if the bible is suggesting that Jesus sinned as well since John "baptized for repentance".
John the Baptist was just as puzzled at Jesus's request for baptism!
Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. John tried to prevent him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?" Jesus said to him in reply, "Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him. (Matthew 3:14-16)
"To fulfill all righteousness is to submit to the plan of God for the salvation of the human race. This involves Jesus' identification with sinners; hence the propriety of his accepting John's baptism." (NAB footnotes.)
What are you suggesting?
That
Jesus has to sin and be baptised in order to identify with us sinners? It will be incomprehensible if a person has to be baptised (to clean him of sin) if the person is sinless.
And btw, 'fulfilling righteousness', in this context, means Jesus presents righteousness as conformity to the will of God expressed in the Mosaic law (
Matt 13:17;
23:29;
27:4, 19, 24) and also conformity to his own teachings concerning the requirements of the kingdom of heaven.
This issue of baptism of Jesus has haunted the christian world for some time, and your defence of Jesus 'has to baptize to identify with sinners' is somewhat out of place.
You seem to have read only half of verse 5; notice the first half of the verse: "When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Child, your sins are forgiven.'". When Jesus healed people or forgave their sins in this manner, it was because he recognized the faith they had in him to do so. And Jesus first forgave the mans sins, and afterwards cured his physical affliction.
Question:
1. What was the 'faith' in verse 5?
To find out (and to avoid answering out of context) please read the chapter before this (Mark Chpt 1). Here we see Jesus curing a man possessed by evil spirit, Simon's mother-in-law who has a fever, and a leper, and he attended to "all the sick and demon-possessed". There was no mention in Mark 1 of him telling the Jews he was God, that he will die and be resurrected. Jesus was merely preaching the good news, and by the miracles given by God, was able to cure many sickness.
The 'faith' here therefore refers to his ability, as a man sent by God, to be able to cure sickness. Why would they bring the paralytic in the first place, if it was not about his God-given ability to forgive the paralytic's sin (or more appropriately curing the paralytic)?
2. What is the answer to Jesus' question:
Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? (Mark 2:9)
The Answer: It's the same. Jesus was given the authority to 'forgive sin' (cure the sick) and then immediately told the paralytic he can walk.
3. Note that the doubt and evil thoughts of 'forgiving sin' and 'only God can forgive sin' came from?????
Christians again overlook this. The thoughts came from 'teachers of the law' whom Jesus knew the evil in their hearts. It was the same people who planned his downfall, who poisoned the well, who twisted Jesus' words and action?? Jesus was not blaspheming but we have our Christians friends once again siding with some of the Jews in saying Jesus was blaspheming.
Jesus taught that physical maladies were not repercussions for sins (John 9:1-5). Do not hold the misconceptions of the Jews against Jesus, who knew better than they did.
I agree and that was what he told his disciples. You have not absorbed what I said earlier. Please see the audience that Jesus was speaking to. Some of his teaching and commendments are relevant applicable to his disciples only.
As I pointed out, the forgiveness and the physical cure were two distinct acts, separated by the talk of blasphemy and forgiveness of sins. Jesus forgave the man his sins, because he recognized the faith of the afflicted man -- faith that Jesus could cure him because he thought it was due to his sinfulness, therefore, faith that Jesus could cleanse him of his sin. When Jesus spoke thus, the man was not physically cured. The act of forgiving sins (in the way that only God can) caused a murmur, which Jesus responded to. Because the doubters did not believe Jesus could forgive sin, Jesus went one step further to cure the man of his ailment, which, to the scribes, would have been proof of the man's forgiveness.
Do you realise that you have just agreed with me that the ancient Jews do believe that sickness is extricably related to sin (see bolded red above). It was of course not true, as he told his disciples. Jesus nevertheless relate forgiving sin and curing sickness as to what the common folk already belief in.
