Gay marriage ban thwarted

Presumably, he'll refer to some subset of the list in 1 Cor 6:9 or Romans 1:26-28 or so. This is an old debate, and will be going on for a long time yet.

The executive summary is, there are people who believe that homosexual behavior is sinful, and people who believe it isn't, both of whom can cite Biblical passages in support of their positions, and both of whom think the others are "obviously" misled.

More difficult is the debate about homosexual *acts* vs. homosexual*ity*. Many people have been taught that homosexuals have "chosen" to be gay. I believe this is simply false; there's a few unverifiable anecdotes in support of it, and a fairly large number of studies suggesting precisely the opposite. (If nothing else, it's pretty easy to observe that, in general, no one who believes it's a choice has been able to make that choice, even for five minutes, just to *want* to have sex with their own gender... it's apparently not really a choice you can make.)

Originally posted by seebs

More difficult is the debate about homosexual *acts* vs. homosexual*ity*. Many people have been taught that homosexuals have "chosen" to be gay. I believe this is simply false;

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How do you explain those that have been cured and now lead Christian lives with wives/kids?

Originally posted by s0uljah


How do you explain those that have been cured and now lead Christian lives with wives/kids?

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hoaxes, brainwashed, caved into social pressure or they weren't really gay to begin wtih...

take your pick....

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."
-Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
-1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
-1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)

Originally posted by Raging Atheist


hoaxes, brainwashed, caved into social pressure or they weren't really gay to begin wtih...

take your pick....

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I could say the same for those that "became" gay.  Besides, I am not saying it isn't biologically influenced, it likely is, but we are not determined by our biology.

Originally posted by s0uljah

How do you explain those that have been cured and now lead Christian lives with wives/kids?

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More than 50% have "normal" sexual relations only by fantasizing about same-sex partners, and the rate of "backsliding" is incredibly high. More people put into "cure" programs *DIE* than become "cured" in any meaningful sense. The suicide rate among people taught to hate themselves is, of course, high.

The remainder? They're probably what they always were: Bisexual. It happens, but it's under 1% of the population by current estimates.

The quality of having a brain which reacts to the "wrong" set of stimuli is not something that can be justly called "sinful" or "not sinful".

Basically, the "cure" argument is about as persuasive when applied to cripples. After all, God cures them sometimes, too, and the Old Testament clearly had them excluded from the temple; indeed, can you find an example of Jesus accepting a single crippled person without curing that person?

In the end, when everything we can find suggests a biological origin, which in most cases cannot be changed any more reliably than the loss of a limb, failure to accept such people, as they are, as part of God's creation and plan strikes me as greatly inappropriate. We can argue about whether, say, this means they are called to chastity - but we must accept that, as they are, they are as God chose to make them, and are worthy of our love. As they are. Not "only if they change".

Originally posted by s0uljah

I could say the same for those that "became" gay.

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If anyone could provide examples, yes. Last I heard, you could identify gay kids with reasonable accuracy by age 2. Certainly, you can identify gay males very reliably in an autopsy; part of the hypothalamus is different. (Or rather, so they said last time I read up on current medical science in this field. It could be different now, science is subject to revision as new data become available.)

seebs-

As I said, I am pretty sure there is a biological component. I took physiological psychology classes for 3 years before becoming a computer guy.

But like I said, a biological tendency doesn't determine our behavior. We are not robots and some things are wrong.

Originally posted by s0uljah
seebs-

As I said, I am pretty sure there is a biological component. I took physiological psychology classes for 3 years before becoming a computer guy.

But like I said, a biological tendency doesn't determine our behavior. We are not robots and some things are wrong.

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What an absurd statement.  I suppose someone who is clinically depressed can simply choose not to be?  Manic?  Schizo?  Of course we're determined by our physiology... you're taking the concept of free will and distorting it... how can you make such statements with an education in biological psychology? ridiculous....

Originally posted by s0uljah
seebs-

As I said, I am pretty sure there is a biological component. I took physiological psychology classes for 3 years before becoming a computer guy.

But like I said, a biological tendency doesn't determine our behavior. We are not robots and some things are wrong.

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This is true. However, I am not convinced that either homosexuality or homosexual acts are among those things. I am willing to believe that homosexual acts are; homosexuality itself can't be, so far as I can tell.

Here's one for you to think about: Imagine two gay guys. They are both Christians, and both believe homosexual sex to be wrong. However, they fall in love. Based on their beliefs, they decide to live life as committed partners, but to remain permanently celibate.

Do you think they're sinning? If so, how?

Originally posted by Raging Atheist


What an absurd statement.  I suppose someone who is clinically depressed can simply choose not to be?  Manic?  Schizo?  Of course we're determined by our physiology... you're taking the concept of free will and distorting it... how can you make such statements with an education in biological psychology? ridiculous....

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Quantum Mechanics is the graveyard of determinism.  Biology gives us tendencies, but thats not the whole story.  How else could cognitive psychology techniques help someone overcome mental illness.  (Granted, some are too strong to overcome like schizophrenia, but I don't think homosexuality is in that category at all)

Originally posted by seebs


This is true. However, I am not convinced that either homosexuality or homosexual acts are among those things. I am willing to believe that homosexual acts are; homosexuality itself can't be, so far as I can tell.

Here's one for you to think about: Imagine two gay guys. They are both Christians, and both believe homosexual sex to be wrong. However, they fall in love. Based on their beliefs, they decide to live life as committed partners, but to remain permanently celibate.

Do you think they're sinning? If so, how?

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Yes, they are sinning.  Its the intent which matters, not to mention that marriage and procreation is divinely ordered.

  Souljah, what does the DSM-IV say about homosexuality? What does the APA say abour reparative therapy?

Originally posted by s0uljah

Yes, they are sinning.  Its the intent which matters, not to mention that marriage and procreation is divinely ordered.

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What exactly is the problem with their intent? Christ said "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given" (Matthew 19:11-12). If Christ *Himself* says not everyone should marry, then what's the problem?

What is the sinful intent? To love? To be chaste? Those aren't sinful.

It is divinely ordered that we are not all alike, nor are we all called to the same lives, and it is *precisely* because of this that the prohibitions on judging the behaviors of others are so consistent and universal. All we know is what *we* are called to. We do not know what others may be called to.

Its the intent which matters, not to mention that marriage and procreation is divinely ordered.

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Marriage is divinely ordered?  Then why does Paul heavily suggest we remain unmarried?

Proceration is divinely ordered?  Then barren woman must be an abomination.  Surely, religious folks have been known to think so.

Ahhhh...religion.  Everything is just soooooo consistent...

Originally posted by s0uljah

Quantum Mechanics is the graveyard of determinism.  Biology gives us tendencies, but thats not the whole story.  How else could cognitive psychology techniques help someone overcome mental illness.  (Granted, some are too strong to overcome like schizophrenia, but I don't think homosexuality is in that category at all)

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Indeed, it isn't - it's so inherent that nothing short of direct divine intervention appears to be able to affect it, and it is not considered an "illness".

If you name a psychological disorder, you will be able to show a statistical correlation between it and other mental disorders. Either homosexuality is the one and only exception to this, or it's not a disorder. It's just part of the way God makes some people. You'll have to ask Him why, I don't know.

gunny has spoken, stop the research. All we need to know about the human brain is contained in the bible, hidden somewhere in there is the answer to parkinsons and hungtingtons disease

Yeah, keep those people away from the temple, they're unclean. That's the answer, and it is, I must admit, in there!

Originally posted by chickenman
All we need to know is contained in the bible

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Roger That!

GySgt James