Perfect health? In this life?

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves said:

Gosh, This is the first time i heard anyone asking people to pray for quick death for their loved ones.

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Do you think you could desist from using someones suffering as a point scoring method

Svt4Him said:

Be thankful then. If you've never seen someone in so much pain it would be better that they die quicker, it's not a bad thing. Just be careful when talking to people who have, it's very hard.

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I am not an advocate for euthansia, however I nursed a lady a couple of years ago, she was elderly, about 88 years of age. She ended up drowning in her own fluid... She lasted for nearly a week, she refused to eat, or let me do basic mouth cares, that would have at least kept her comfortable

She cried out in agony everytime we had to change her which as she had no control over her bladder, was frequently, and in the end, was so frail that I could pick her up in my arms, which was sligtly preferable, than using the usualy side to side roll method

This lady wanted to die..... Her family were rang in australia and told that their mum wouldnt last much longer, and if they wanted to say their goodbyes..... I went into this lady and said "{name}, I'm hoping you can hear me, I know you want to go, but your daughters are comming from Australia, and they'll be here in about seven hours, can you hang on a bit longer?" and held her hand

This lady made her daughters arrival by about an hour. They had an hour in which to say goodbye to their mum

I wasnt a christian at the time, but I prayed that she wouldnt have to suffer..... Its funny though often the stauchest opponents of euthanaisa are the ones who have never had to nurse dying people, or deal with loved ones dying the most horible deaths

Its funny though often the stauchest opponents of euthanaisa are the ones who have never had to nurse dying people, or deal with loved ones dying the most horible deaths

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Jesus dealt with such people, but He never helped them die. Maybe we can learn something from Him.

churchlady said:

Well, I agree Jim, and that's your problem. You're LOOKING at the high school yearbook and then in the mirror. You won't find faith there.

Try LOOKING into 'the perfect law of liberty and continuing therein'. You'll find plenty of faith.

Sincerely,

Shirley Eure Wong

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OUCH!!

LOL, everyone ignores my posts

DiscipleWhomJesusLoves said:

Jesus dealt with such people, but He never helped them die. Maybe we can learn something from Him.

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I have been nursing for nearly 30 years and I would never advocate euthanasia. I have nursed in Elderly Care over the last 15 years and I pray for the dying, I have seen people recover for a while, I have talked to people who are in a semi- conscious state about Jesus and His love for them. Where there is life there is hope, and the place for all hope is in Jesus.

I do believe as a nurse we should apply the principles of palliative care though.See below.

Affirms life and regards dying as a normal process

Neither hastens nor postpones death

Provides relief from pain and other distressing symptoms

Integrates the psychological and spiritual aspects of care

Offers a support system to help patients live as actively as possible until death

Offers a support system to help patients' families cope during the patient's illness and in their own bereavement


WHen we pray for that dying person God makes a difference , I have seen the power of prayer in action in the frail elderly who are dying , God bringing that peace,easing their pain. infact I have led some to the Lord. I am still an advcate against euthanasia despite the suffering I have seen over the years.

Ok...I only read the first few pages of this thread and would like to chime in, if I may....

I have 2 questions.....Was sickness here before the fall of Adam?
I`m going to guess that you say no.....If your answer is indeed no,then there is a problem with your viewpoint.
To say that healing isnt for us, yet sickness wasnt here before the fall, is to say that Adams fall was greater than Christs sacrifice...plain and simple.

Also, if God doesnt want us healed and sometimes puts sickness on us (even though you give no reason why God would do that...on top of the fact that He has no reason to do it, that would be a house divided, and the Scriptures are plain that a house divided cannot stand) do you take medicine when you are sick? Why? Because from your viewpoint, that would be in rebellion to the will of God....

RevJdK said:

Ok...I only read the first few pages of this thread and would like to chime in, if I may....

I have 2 questions.....Was sickness here before the fall of Adam?
I`m going to guess that you say no.....If your answer is indeed no,then there is a problem with your viewpoint.
To say that healing isnt for us, yet sickness wasnt here before the fall, is to say that Adams fall was greater than Christs sacrifice...plain and simple.

Also, if God doesnt want us healed and sometimes puts sickness on us (even though you give no reason why God would do that...on top of the fact that He has no reason to do it, that would be a house divided, and the Scriptures are plain that a house divided cannot stand) do you take medicine when you are sick? Why? Because from your viewpoint, that would be in rebellion to the will of God....

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Amen, Romans 5 calls the last Adam's work a "much more" than the first Adam's work.

A house divided is nothing more than being lukewarm, having new wine in old wineskins, mixing law and grace.

RevJdK said:

Ok...I only read the first few pages of this thread and would like to chime in, if I may....

I have 2 questions.....Was sickness here before the fall of Adam?
I`m going to guess that you say no.....If your answer is indeed no,then there is a problem with your viewpoint.
To say that healing isnt for us, yet sickness wasnt here before the fall, is to say that Adams fall was greater than Christs sacrifice...plain and simple.

Also, if God doesnt want us healed and sometimes puts sickness on us (even though you give no reason why God would do that...on top of the fact that He has no reason to do it, that would be a house divided, and the Scriptures are plain that a house divided cannot stand) do you take medicine when you are sick? Why? Because from your viewpoint, that would be in rebellion to the will of God....

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Amen! I feel it is a very dangerous thing to say that God causes sickness. Who causes all that is evil?

Jim M said:

Does “all things” mean you can sprout wings and fly simply by believing? Well, then, I guess there are some limitations on what Jesus meant when He used the word “all”, huh. Like, maybe he was using hyperbole or synecdoche?

If what you say is the way it is, then why aren’t you in “perfect” (as opposed to “relative”) health, Dids? Do you wear glasses? Do you have fillings in your teeth? Can you run as fast as you did when you were 20? Is your hair graying or falling out?

So much for perfect.

In fact, I would venture to ask, why isn’t anyone you know in perfect health?

Your doctrine is based on an interpretative theory that simply does not hold water scripturally, logically, or in life. That’s why so few buy into it.

~Jim

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You are correct in the context that these things may not always happen... and the answer is exactly what I posted. They do not always happen because people do not (for whatever reason) always believe.

As for as aging.. the truth still stands.
If you could believe that you will never grow old.. then you would not.
Of course that is not within the scope of things that can be believed. Not everything can be believed because not all things are not within the set of those things that can be believed. Jesus did not say all things are possible... he said all things are possible if you can believe.

Are all things believable?
Obviously not.

Can you believe anything you want by choice?
Again... Obviously not.


Jesus did not lie Jim.

All things are possible if you can believe.

Jim M said:

Oh. Well, it is hard to understand your language without your dictionary. I use the standard English one.

~Jim

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What is so hard about this collection of words?

"All things are possible if you can believe..."

There is nothing difficult about the individual words. It is a proper SPO sentence that follows the rules of the "romantic" language pattern.

This is true because Jesus said it. All things really are possible if you can believe. Trouble is you cannot believe all things. Nobody said they could. Not only can we not believe any old thing... but we have hindrances with attempting to believe those things that are within the realm of believable things. We are plagued with doubts, fears, weaknesses, sins, guilts, faults, and many other issues which prevent belief from coming to fruit.

But the fact still remains and is true...

ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE IF YOU CAN BELIEVE.

It is distressing that good Christians take issue with these simple and self explanatory words of Jesus.

JimfromOhio said:

I may not be online in the next few days depending on my wife's mother. She is dying and currently, her kidneys are failing and her other organs will fail soon. Her time is almost up. Please pray that she will die quickly and peacefully.

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All things are possible....


never mind.

This is so sad.

didaskalos said:

What is so hard about this collection of words?

"All things are possible if you can believe..."

It is distressing that good Christians take issue with these simple and self explanatory words of Jesus.

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Yes.............. I always wonder what some Christians do with these words that are so plan and straightforward. (I mean those Christians that never seem to know what God's will is)

How do these kind of scriptures compute in their thinking? I really want to know. JimM? JimOhio?

Jim M said:

Cute, but I suspect you either missed the point or are intentionally trying to get this thread off-track.

And my names not Shirley.

~Jim

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Okay, you caught me, I was being a bit facetious.

Sincerely,

I. Saul Ree

I have posted this in another tread and I see an "opportunity" to post this in this thread. People will view circumstances from human point of view (emotional) while Christians will view circumstances as opportunities in God's point of view. Anyone whoever believe such things is their own prerogative.

I have seen differently because I have seen people turn to Christ when they were facing circumstances that woke them up. Life is short. Our temporal mind-set thinks primarily about the things of now and we focus on this world as if it is all there is. As a Christian, those of us who know that this life is only temporary so biblically, we are commanded to better make good use of our life for God's glory regardless what happens. It is foolish to waste time focus on the negative view of suffering because we need to make the best use of our time to impact this world for Jesus while we have the opportunity to use the positive view of suffering. One of my good friend who was a pastor, He died of cancer and during the funeral, over 3,000 people came to respect him and many of them turned to the Lord.

Since no one knows the future, so what do we know what is to come? For we are living today knowing that we will die someday. Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains. There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven. There is a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Life is full of surprises. The possibilities for tomorrow are usually beyond my expectations. In reality, uncertain future is part of life. I must treat "today is my last day" because tomorrow may not come for me.

God has also given us a wealth of opportunities to use in the Great Commission. An opportunity may be defined as a providential circumstance which permits us to turn ourselves to glorify God. Christ lives His life again through US and continues to live in through US, that God will continue to work, reaching out and through the human instrument to accomplish His wonders among the lost around us.

The enemy of opportunity is preoccupation of doctrines that prevent God's great commission. If anyone wants to do this, that's between the believer and God.

"Therefore as, we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially those who belong to the family of believers" (Galatians 6:10). One thing we may be sure of, however: For the believer all pain has meaning; all adversity is profitable. There is no question that adversity is difficult. It usually takes us by surprise and seems to strike where we are most vulnerable. To us it often appears completely senseless and irrational, but to God none of it is either senseless or irrational. He has a purpose in every pain He brings or allows in our lives. We can be sure that in some way He intends it for our profit and His glory. Jerry Bridges Navigators

When you and I hurt deeply, what we really need is not an explanation from God but a revelation of God. We need to see how great God is; we need to recover our lost perspective on life. Things get out of proportion when we are suffering, and it takes a vision of something bigger than ourselves to get life's dimensions adjusted again. Warren W. Wiersbe Biography/Daily Devotional

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An optimist sees an opportunity in every calamity; a pessimist sees calamity in every opportunity. Sir Winston Churchill

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By the way, my mother-in-law died yesterday morning at 3:30 of organ failures due to complications of her illness (old age).

Jim..
Why do you think I never eat veggies. Grill some veggies on barbie . Yum. I like to take kernel corn, drain the water, and sauté it in butter... add salt an pepper... wow! So I love veggies. We are not talking about eating cows dung or barf. Those are bad things.

So your analogy is meaningless.

You asked a question.... if perfect health were possible for your whole life.

This is the Jesus answer.

Jesus (not me) said:
"All things are possible if you can believe."

The my response remains the same. If a person can believe for perfect health their whole life (a "thing" that exists in the list of possible things) then it is possible.

Jim M said:

Why do some of us feel like a parent forcing a child who has their eyes only on the pie to eat their vegetables (or liver and limburger). What kind of parent would do that? It would be a “cruel”, “bad” parent who would not allow their children to only eat pie and candy? Why, that kind of parent should be reported to child protective services.

But the truth is, our Heavenly Parent requires us to eat our vegetables as well as enjoy the dessert. IMO, only an immature child would think that it was possible to live on candy alone.

So, if I, your older brother, reminds you that your Heavenly Father wants you to grow up healthy and keep pointing at the vegetables, liver and limburger you ignore, don’t get mad at me, I didn’t put those veggies on your plate or those scriptures in the Bible. The Holy Spirit did. Me? I just point them out.

So, like them or not, you are going to have to eat them.

~Jim

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didaskalos said:

Jim..
Why do you think I never eat veggies. Grill some veggies on barbie . Yum. I like to take kernel corn, drain the water, and sauté it in butter... add salt an pepper... wow! So I love veggies. We are not talking about eating cows dung or barf. Those are bad things.

So your analogy is meaningless.

You asked a question.... if perfect health were possible for your whole life.

This is the Jesus answer.

Jesus (not me) said:
"All things are possible if you can believe."

The my response remains the same. If a person can believe for perfect health their whole life (a "thing" that exists in the list of possible things) then it is possible.

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Ecclesiastes (you know, from the BIBLE as THE WORD) mentioned "meaningless" about 33 times. Here are some of the verses.

Ecclesiastes 6:12
For who knows what is good for a man in life, during the few and meaningless days he passes through like a shadow? Who can tell him what will happen under the sun after he is gone?

Ecclesiastes 7:15
In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these: a righteous man perishing in his righteousness, and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.

Ecclesiastes 11:8
However many years a man may live, let him enjoy them all. But let him remember the days of darkness, for they will be many. Everything to come is meaningless.

Ecclesiastes 11:10
So then, banish anxiety from your heart and cast off the troubles of your body, for youth and vigor are meaningless.

Ecclesiastes 12:8
"Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Everything is meaningless!"

Such doctrines are vain and meaningless that got into our Christian communities. The reality is this while our disease, old age and death testify sadly that our physical bodies are decaying every day. Our bodies will go back to dust

1 Timothy 1:6
Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk.

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Well Jim you must have read my post.
(Or did you?)

Because I said pretty much the same thing.

I agree that not all things can be believed. And that is exactly what Jesus said. He said all things are possible IF YOU CAN BELIEVE.

BUT...

It is certainly possible (for us) to believe for perfect health because that is within the list of things provided in scripture.

That does not mean a person will always believe... even if it is within the set of possible things to believe. We all have issues which get in the way. In these case we have to "eat our veggies" as you put it.

The whole point is this.... from God's point of view, and in accordance with His will, if we CAN believe, then it is possible.

BUT....

Once we have eaten our veggies and have gotten good and healthy... THEN we can finally believe. But God was on our side all the time. He was there with the item in question (a "sweet" if I recall, or was it "perfect health?") ready AND WILLING that we have it. Just waiting for us to believe so He could give it to us. It was not Him withholding health from us because we had not eaten enough dung or puke. That is just silly. There is nothing good or positive about eating poop or puke. I rather think that would make you sicker and should be avoided.

So we come back to the point again. He was on our side all along. He never wanted us to eat poop or puke in order to teach us a lesson after which He was not going to give us what we wanted anyways. He was just waiting till we got to the place where we would finally believe. Part of the hindrance is getting rid of these obscene ideas that God wants us to eat poop for our own good... and realize that Jesus has already done everything needed to perfect us and bring us to the Father.

So there are issues that need to be addressed.

It is so odd to have to try and talk people OUT of eating poop. To convince them that their loving heavenly Father really does not want them to do this. To show them that there is no benefit to eating poop. It does not help you.

Jim M said:

Simple, yes. Simplistic, no.​

​

I thought I answered this in a previous post, Dids. But I will give it another try. “All things” is not an unlimited promise without bounds or you could say that if someone believes hard enough they can sprout wings and fly, pray people into heaven against their will, turn aluminum into gold, turn their hair any shade they choose, become the ruler of the universe, would never age, would never die (physically), would never have to work for a living, would never have a problem, would never have their faith tested. Why, if I just believe hard enough, I could get the whole world to heaven without Jesus Christ and I could continue in habitual sin and still be a Christian. All I have to do is have faith because ALL THINGS are possible if I believe. (I know, I am being extreme, reduction ad absudum, but I am showing that the word "All" has some limits to it.)​

There are just some things that are impossible, Dids, and they are impossible because God intends for them to be that way. Not everyone can rule the world. Not everyone will go to heaven, no matter how hard you believe they will.

God is not our servant, who moves at our beck and call and obeys our faith, no matter how ludicrous our desires are. Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible WITH GOD" (Mark 10.27). And there are just some things God does not approve of and there are some prayers God will not answer no matter how much faith you think you can muster up. Without God, nothing is possible. If God does not approve, you might as well kiss your vain desires goodbye. Jesus statement in Mark 10.27 adds balance to His statement in Mark 9.23 or else we could, indeed, sprout wings and fly. We can’t because it is not God’s will that we do. Only “WITH GOD” are “all things” possible or, to state it another, ALL things of which God approves are possible.

So “all things” does not mean “all things” in the comprehensive sense, does it? It means “all things” “with God” and His purposes. Right? So, as it always does, it boils down to God’s will in any given situation and in any prayer. ​

​

This is not rocket science, Dids, but it is not as “simple” (i.e., simplistic) as you want to make it. You have to “compare” spiritual things with spiritual things – “These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual” (1 Cor. 2.13), scripture with scripture, taking the Bible as a whole to understand what any remote scripture may say it. You do not (or at least you shouldn’t) build your faith on isolated, selective, and preferred passages of scripture at the expense of the rest of the Bible.


​

Heck, as this forum sometimes proves, you can take any speech anyone makes and pick-and-choose the words, phrases, and statements they make and come up with anything you want. Every phrase must be interpreted in the context of the entire message.


~Jim

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