Thank you SoulJah. You may not agree with me, but at least you understand where I am coming from.
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another police beating again!!!!!!!
- Thread starter tom
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Thank you SoulJah. You may not agree with me, but at least you understand where I am coming from.
I do understand you. You wish to inflict upon this man what he inflicted on others. Vengence, in other words.
But to do so makes you exactly like him. You don't want to torture him to defend yourself, or prevent him from attacking others. You want to torture him to cause him pain.
You cannot do to this man what he did to others without becoming like him.
*shrug*. Like I said, I can't imagine Ghandi or Mother Theresa, or especially Jesus doing it that way.
"An eye for an eye leaves both blind".
But to do so makes you exactly like him. You don't want to torture him to defend yourself, or prevent him from attacking others. You want to torture him to cause him pain.
You cannot do to this man what he did to others without becoming like him.
*shrug*. Like I said, I can't imagine Ghandi or Mother Theresa, or especially Jesus doing it that way.
"An eye for an eye leaves both blind".
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You're right. My personal attitude is wrong. I am angry. I am human. I am a parent who deeply sympathizes with anyone who loses a child under these or any circumstances, and I know how terrible it would be. In short, yes I want revenge. Know what? I'm wrong. Period. But I am also human, and entitled to be wrong.
What about you, Morat? From some of your posts that I've seen I like you and respect you as a fellow martial artist. But, don't attrocities like this make you angry at all? You are human too.
The act of repaying upon him death for death is totally Biblically justified. However, it is my attitude that is wrong, and I'm perfectly willing to admit that.
Numbers 35:31, which I posted above, clearly says that the sentence should be carried out. But not with joy or vengeance in the heart. So, I definitely should not be the one pulling the switch.
But, the act of capital punishment is justified in God's eyes. It is my attitude of anger and revenge that is wrong. That's just something that I have to deal with.
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I'm not angry. Sickened, yes. But not angry. I never said it was a good thing, what this man did. It's clearly not.
He's quite obviously massively sick in the head, a very big danger to people, and should be locked away. Both for our sake and his.
I refuse to support capital punishment, because I firmly believe that to execute people for killing is to make murderers of society at best, and of at least one person (someone has to inject the drugs, throw the switch, etc) at least. There's a host of others, but that one's the most relevant.
Killing in self-defense, yes. That's one thing. Sometimes preventing the greater harm requires doing so. But that's different than cold-blooded execution of a helpless man or woman (regardless of what they had done before, by the time they're executed, they are thoroughly helpless and powerless).
He's quite obviously massively sick in the head, a very big danger to people, and should be locked away. Both for our sake and his.
I refuse to support capital punishment, because I firmly believe that to execute people for killing is to make murderers of society at best, and of at least one person (someone has to inject the drugs, throw the switch, etc) at least. There's a host of others, but that one's the most relevant.
Killing in self-defense, yes. That's one thing. Sometimes preventing the greater harm requires doing so. But that's different than cold-blooded execution of a helpless man or woman (regardless of what they had done before, by the time they're executed, they are thoroughly helpless and powerless).
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I still don't see how someone who did such things can be ever given the option of being called helpless again.
I don't agree. But I respect you and your right to hold that opinion.
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morat: Say a convict is deemed un-reformable. It is found that he will never be safe to let back into society and that he would only be a burden to our already full prisons. Why not execute him and put him out of our collective misery?
I've always thought of execution as a last resort: not a punishment warranted by the severity of the crime...
I've always thought of execution as a last resort: not a punishment warranted by the severity of the crime...
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It's not really a value judgement, just a statement of fact. Once he's been caught, he is no longer free. Is pretty much powerless over his fate. His freedom has been surrendered to the authority of others, who will decide the course of a good chunk (and possibly the rest of) his life.
Helpless. Without power. Powerless. In terms of execution, drugged or bound.
Executing someone in that fashion is cold-blooded. There's no heat of rage, no adrenelin, no mental justifications. No "It was him or me". Whoever pushes the button, so to speak, has to do it cold. That man was no threat to them. He wasn't even a threat to society anymore. He was just a powerless man strapped to a gurney, or to a chair.
I understand, although do not know for certain, that FBI and SWAT snipers are generally relieved of duty for some time (and undergo counseling) when they are forced to shoot someone. It's not an easy thing, I imagine, to kill someone like that. It probably helps if the target was actively threatening someone when you fired. Feels a bit more like self-defense.
*Shrug*. I've used my training once. And thanks to a few old injuries, I had a fair knowledge of what it felt like to be the man who stupidly attacked me. I hurt him rather badly. The fact that I hurt him no more than necessary, and that his actions had made it necessary were cold comfort.
I couldn't imagine living with the notion that I had executed a helpless man. That would be something I'd have to deal with all my life.
Helpless. Without power. Powerless. In terms of execution, drugged or bound.
Executing someone in that fashion is cold-blooded. There's no heat of rage, no adrenelin, no mental justifications. No "It was him or me". Whoever pushes the button, so to speak, has to do it cold. That man was no threat to them. He wasn't even a threat to society anymore. He was just a powerless man strapped to a gurney, or to a chair.
I understand, although do not know for certain, that FBI and SWAT snipers are generally relieved of duty for some time (and undergo counseling) when they are forced to shoot someone. It's not an easy thing, I imagine, to kill someone like that. It probably helps if the target was actively threatening someone when you fired. Feels a bit more like self-defense.
*Shrug*. I've used my training once. And thanks to a few old injuries, I had a fair knowledge of what it felt like to be the man who stupidly attacked me. I hurt him rather badly. The fact that I hurt him no more than necessary, and that his actions had made it necessary were cold comfort.
I couldn't imagine living with the notion that I had executed a helpless man. That would be something I'd have to deal with all my life.
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The question is, are there people out there who can? And if so, how do you feel about them? Whats your take?
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Of course there are. Now, if it was just plain "killing", I'd say there were a lot more. People can, and do, kill for many reasons. Self-defense, defense of country, etc. Even so, I understand the military has made a great deal of effort to create training methods that will ensure our soldiers can kill and handle the consequences. A problem in WWII, and even Vietnam, I understand.
As for the "killing a helpless person". Yes, such people exist. I'd claim they're massively screwed in the head, one way or another, and are a danger to society in their current state. Sadly, they refuse to wear a uniform.
My point is, that to execute a criminal, requires the state to find (or require) someone to kill a helpless man. So either we're giving a psychopath a way to get his jollies, or damaging the otherwise sane. Not a good deal.
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I'm sure this is my lack of worldly experience speaking, but, if I was paid for a day or two to be the guy who throws the switch, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Of course, I've never killed a person before, so ya never know. Thanks for thoughts...
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nyj
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I was watching a show on (I believe it was) the Discovery Channel which was on jails that implemented the death penalty. Almost to a man, the wardens of those jails spoke about the mental toll (and sometimes eventually physical toll) that executions took on them. As for those who actually "push the button", I was under the impression that several officers of the court push a button with none of them knowing which one did the actual deed... supposedly this is to minimize guilt for being the person who commits the homicide. Sort of like old firing squads where one soldier got a blank so after the deed was done, they could comfort themselves by thinking they were the one who got the blank. I imagine there are those who feel no qualms about being involved in executions, but the trend seems to be that it weighs on people.
An interesting tidbit though is that, at least in Oklahoma, when someone is executed, their cause of death is listed as: Homicide.
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All executions are by definition homicides. What do they refer to them as in other states? Electrocution and the like?
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nyj
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Yes, they are by definition all homicides, but I think, given the 'political' nature of capital punishment and the mental imagery that that word brings up, I would have expected them to use something different. *shrug*
Then again, Oklahoma seems to be pretty proud of the number of executions they can achieve in a year (even amidst all the prosecution overturns they've had in the past year, not to mention the whole forensic incompetency scandal they are currently embroiled in). I think they view it as a "rivalry thing" with Texas.
As for what other states call it, I don't know. Don't have any friends who are policemen in other states.
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VOW
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To Mac:
I do know that in the State of Florida, the death certificate of someone who has been executed reads "homicide."
As for some of the firing squad being issued blanks, according to my husband, you can TELL the difference between a blank and a live round when you shoot your weapon.
Die-hard proponents of the Death Penalty (pun intended) often say they would GLADLY be the one to pull the switch, push the button, yank the lever, or fire the gun.
Not me.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
I do know that in the State of Florida, the death certificate of someone who has been executed reads "homicide."
As for some of the firing squad being issued blanks, according to my husband, you can TELL the difference between a blank and a live round when you shoot your weapon.
Die-hard proponents of the Death Penalty (pun intended) often say they would GLADLY be the one to pull the switch, push the button, yank the lever, or fire the gun.
Not me.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
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By man's definition of the law, yes. What about God's opinion which I have already posted?
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Nor me, Vow. I could not be non-emotional, in such a case. A person must be chosen who is close enough to God, that they do not feel the pangs of conscience or the joy of revenge when pulling that switch. In other words, NOT me.
It is possible, that others do not feel the same compulsions as you.
And just because you feel something, does not make that something to be the feelings of God. Both you and I feel that we are in full compliance with God the Father.
However, HE and HE ALONE is allowed to determine that.
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Do we get to choose who we flip the switch on, or is it random?
Eitherway, put me down, I am busy towards the end of the month, but I am free for the better part of Aug.
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Cool !
I guess anyone who is in favor of abortion should be forced to have one too, right? Just so they can find out what it's like. What an illogical statement.
By that statement, I assume that you have no children. Therefore no reason to be outraged at their exploitation and death.
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