25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

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LouisBooth

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"Prove it! "

LOL..why don't you? It seems plain to me that its sickness. Thoughout that passage Paul talks about weakness having to do with some physical aspect. IN Chapter 11 vs 24-27 is full of PHYSICAL HARDSHIPS. Then in vs 10 in chapter 12 he akins it to physical things. perscutions, difficulties, hardships, insults. These are all physical things.

"How can he be so active in travelling if he was sick half the time?"

Ask timothy. He was sickly and traveled with Paul all the time. Heck, he even when before Paul in some places. You're just making no sence drew.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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evil spirit that followed him around causing problems. "

LOL..are you seriuos? You're sooo wrong. I can't believe you acutally said that. You really don't read the letters too much do ya?

Read is the key word...

Here it is, word for word in many different versions:


2Co 12:7

(ASV)  ..., there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.

(Darby)  ... there was given to me a thorn for the flesh, a messenger of Satan that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted.

(DRB)  ... there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me.

(GW)  ... I am forced to deal with a recurring problem. That problem, Satan's messenger, torments me to keep me from being conceited.

(ISV)  ... a thorn was given to me and placed in my body. It was Satan's messenger to keep on tormenting me so that I would not become conceited.

(KJV)  ... there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

(KJV+)  ...there was given1325 to me3427 a thorn4647 in the3588 flesh,4561 the messenger32 of Satan4566 to2443 buffet2852 me,3165 lest3363 I should be exalted above measure.5229

(LITV) ... a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, that I not be made haughty.

(MKJV)  ... a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be made haughty.

(NASB)  ... there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

(NASB+)  ...there was given1325 me a thorn4647 in the flesh4561, a messenger32a of Satan4567 to torment2852 me--to keep3361 me from exalting5229 myself!

(Webster) ..., there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

(WNT)  ... there has been sent to me, like the agony of impalement, Satan's angel dealing blow after blow, lest I should be over-elated.

(YLT)  ... there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted overmuch.


The greek word for messenger is aggelos, or angel... and is translated such in a couple of the above versions. In the two literal versions the thorn is even called a "He" proving this was an entity and not a sickness.
Strongs:
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.


Thayer Definition:
1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God


The term "thorn in the flesh" comes from the OT:

Jdg 2:3  Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

Here the inhabitants of the land were to be the cause of constant trouble to the Jews. Paul had people who were constantly causing him trouble. These people were stirred up by the angel of satan who was buffeting him. The word buffet means to strike or slap.


kolaphizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to strike with the fist, give one a blow with the fist
2) to maltreat, treat with violence and contumely


In no case is there any evidence that this was some sickness or disease, or that it was sent by God. It literally and specifically says it is an angel and that it is of satan. Because it was a demonic spirit, and because we as believers have authority in the name of Jesus to deal with them, Paul had all the grace (charisma) needed to handle this spirit. This is what the Lord was telling Paul when He said "my grace is sufficient for you". Sufficient to do what? Sufficient to do what he was asking God to do... get rid of the demon.

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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"He suffered so we would not have to! "

ah ah ah..not scriptural....

Gal 3:
13  Christ has purchased our freedom from the curse of the Law by becoming accursed for us--because "CURSED IS EVERY ONE WHO IS HANGED UPON A TREE."


Peoples New Testament:
Gal 3:13-14 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse. From the curse of the law Christ hath redeemed us by suffering for us. Being made a curse for us. He took our curse on himself and suffered in our stead.

Word Pictures:
Having become a curse for us (genomenov uper hmwn katara). Here the graphic picture is completed. We were under (upo) a curse, Christ became a curse over (uper) us and so between us and the overhanging curse which fell on him instead of on us. Thus he bought us out (ek) and we are free from the curse which he took on himself. This use of uper for substitution is common in the papyri and in ancient Greek as in the N.T. (Joh_11:50; 2Co_5:14 f.).


2Co 8:9  For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
 
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Hey Andrew,

RE:
(Hobie paraphrase)
"My grace(charima) is sufficient for you(to accomplish what you ask)... my power is comsummated (or accompished, or completed) in infirmity"

That is called -reading your doctrine into the word- not paraphrasing what is there. It is not paraphrasing but adding an interpretation foriegn to the actual text. It is sad that you try and disguise it as a paraphrase when all it is an addition to the text in order to interp it your way.
-------------------------

No its not MJ white. What is adding is to say that Paul's thorn was some eye disease, migraine, some sickness. Talk about pot calling a kettle black



I never said anything about Paul's thorn. So why do you accuse me of adding anything to a scripture I never addressed?

The editorial Hobie added [to accomplish what you ask] is just what I called it, adding your doctrine into the Word.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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That is called -reading your doctrine into the word- not paraphrasing what is there. It is not paraphrasing but adding an interpretation foriegn to the actual text. It is sad that you try and disguise it as a paraphrase when all it is an addition to the text in order to interp it your way.


From Websters:
Paraphrase
PAR'APHRASE, n. s as z. [Gr. beyond, and phrase.] An explanation of some text or passage in a book, in a more clear and ample manner than is expressed in the words of the author. Such as the paraphrase of the New Testament by Erasmus.

In paraphrase, or translation with latitude, the author's words are not so strictly followed as his sense.

PAR'APHRASE, v.t. To explain, interpret or translate with latitude; to unfold the sense of an author with more clearness and particularity than it is expressed in his own words.

PAR'APHRASE, v.i. To interpret or explain amply; to make a paraphrase.

Where translation is impracticable, they may paraphrase.
 
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Dear Hobie,

You answered.
quote:
What material goods can the poor in Africa expect?


See posts 2, 54, 67, 70, 72, 81, 87


I have read all the posts. None of them explain anything. How hard is it to answer my question with a simple answer? Can they get a new car? How about a nice house? Will they get indoor plumbing? What?

Then.
quote:
What about the painful discipline hebrews talks about?
I amused that people quote this passage in Hebrews and attempt to use it to say God kills, maims, and sickens His own children in order to "teach them a lesson." The context of the passage is concerning "suffering" that we endure when we resist sinning. It is not talking about sickness, disease, death, poverty, or any such affiction. It certainly does not mean that God is using any such things to teach us anything.


Do you know what a straw man argument is Hobie. In affect, it is where you deliberately mislead another in order to make yourself look better., Here you are ascribing to me what I never said. I never advocated God killing, or maiming, or sickening His own children. Like your doctrines, those are imagined constructs of your mind.

On to the Scripture in question:

Heb 12
4 Ye have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh to you as to children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked by him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons: for what son is he whom the father chasteneth no

you said:
The word used here is paideia, which means child train:

Strongs
paideia
From G3811; tutorage, that is, education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture


What about the word scourgeth? The word used here, mastigoo, meaning to flog [Strong’s 3146], is the same word used in John 19:1 “…therefore took Jesus and scourged Him.” Pick and choose you do because you do want to take the whole Word of God into account.


Hobie continues

A good example of the meaning of this word and the concept of "child training" can be seen in Ephesians:

Eph 6:
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but nurture them in the chastening and admonition of the Lord.

I like Weymouth:

(WNT) And you, fathers, do not irritate your children, but bring them up tenderly with true Christian training and advice.

I would say this is a good example of how God chastises us concerning sin. Not to the point where we are irritated or provoked(as we might be if He hit us with a cancer or ran over us with a car) but with something that might "nurture" us, doing it "tenderly". When we sin and then go to the throne of Grace, what is waiting for us there? A heart attack? Maybe a car accident? I don't think so. And it is odd that people who are sick and claim that they are being beaten by the Lord to teach them a lesson about sin can never quite figure out what that sin is!! If you cannot tell what sickness is teaching you, then either you are a very bad student or God is a very bad teacher (not so!). In the end, if you feel you are being beaten up by God to teach you some lesson about sinning, then the solution is to learn your lesson, stop that sinning (this passage is talking about suffering against sin, is it not?), get healed, and be done with it! In no case does it make sense that you would endure a lifetime of beatings for sinning a sin you do not even know about. If you are sick and want to use this passage as proof that God is dealing with you, then you better be ready to confess your sin and repent.


Me
Oh yes I see, you wish to concentrate only on the scripture that shows God is loving. But you ignore every place that shows that God uses any negative reinforcement. Here you ignored the flogging we receive at God’s hands. Simply ignore it!

I agree that God’s purpose is not to beat up on us. Quit arguing against a position that is so diametrically opposed to yours. That is not my position or Louis’s. I hold a position much closer to you than that, BUT while they [these straw men you keep railing against] certainly go too far the one way, you have certainly as well, gone too far the other.

But the passage does say it is the LORD who does both the chastening and scourging. But what is the result of this chastening and scourging? As the Word says this discipline seems painful. As the OT tells us, spare the rod and you will spoil the child.

But you neglect that idea of God for it doesn’t fit into your doctrine. Did you just black out the word ‘scourgeth’ from your mind so as not to have to deal with it?

You se Hobie, we are walking along the same path, but you stop short of taking in all the Father reveals.

You go on:

quote:
What about the troubles including distress and being poor paul went through? .... Which apostle was without persecution and struggle? Were any well off finicially?

It has been pointed out (I think it was on this thread, or maybe the "faith movement" thread) that the sufferings of Paul all revolved around persecution and the evil spirit that followed him around causing problems. If you find that you are burdened with an "abundance of revelations" and consumed with the apostolic calling as Paul was, then I suppose we will understand your having like problems. But until then, I think the devil and the persecutors will likely just ignore you. As it is, he does not have anything to worry about since you seem to side with him against the Word in many instances.... why would he bother you? You are hurting yourself enough without his efforts.

Me.
It was not pointed out on this thread. And I will not waste my time reading the other thread. The Word tells us that all that wish to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. Paul wrote that we are to imitate him, not because he was some superman apostle but because he was faithful in his walk. Inane responses like the one you just gave are insulting and show me your doctrine is a waste of time. No where have I sided with the devil and against the Word. Mostly I have just asked you questions. But your true nature now shows. If of course I am wrong, then please quote me where I have sided with the devil and/or against the Word.

I thought you were a misguided mature Christian, but I guess I can drop the mature part.
part one

You reply to me
#93
quote:
And what about Jesus our example, who (a)died young and (b) had no place to lat His head?

If asking God is all it takes, why didn't the cup pass from Jesus when He asked?
You know it is bad enough when someone compares themself to Paul and implies that they are suffering like this mighty apostle... but to compare ones self to Jesus and say that we should also endure the sufferings He did is really to much. Jesus specifically endure these troubles, pains, and death for us. Surely you are not saying that God wants you to suffer and die for your own salvation or the salvation of the world? There is simply no comparison. If you insist that we are to do this... then immediately leave your home, your belongings, your family and hit the road. (And do not live past 33 years either.)


He suffered so we would not have to!


As far as the cup is concerned... if you feel that God is asking you to leave heaven, live a perfect sinless life, and then die for the sins of the world... then we will grant you an early death. But remember that you are going to have to raise from the dead afterwards, be named Lord and Christ, and rule for eternity.


That is just not a very good argument...


Hellooooo, is anyone home?
Hobie says that we should not suffer, look at Jesus he says our great example. So when I point out that Jesus requested that the cup pass but it did not, Hobie decides to attack me for comparing myself to Jesus. He says look at the Father who never causes His children any pain, but sent His Son to die. I say be like Jesus, willing to suffer for the glory of God, but Hobie says I have to save the world first before I can even seek to understand God through Jesus.

Your arguments are specious, your answers without knowledge or wisdom. You haven’t any sense of history and are without sense. Do you think that no one has died young in the cause of Christ? No martyr, no child? How shallow you are being. How devoid of sense your position portrays. The Hebrews were told that they had not yet suffered unto the point of blood, but some did, Many did not live to old age. And they in no sense were perfect, or left heaven to save the world.



You go on to say:
quote:
You have missed the truth, your eyes are on this world and not on the next.


Actually.... if you read these posts from the beginning, especially the first 50 or so, you will find that prosperity and healing were not even mentioned. 99% of the topics which I covered had to do with salvation, walking in the light, and the fruits of the Spirit. You will also find that the conversation was not turned to the topics of healing and/or prosperity by me... but by people (like yourself) who have not come to share what it means to be in Christ or for the purpose of glorifying God, rather they come here to argue over points that I do not promote and have not even mentioned. However if someone comes and begins to attack the gospel of the kingdom make lite of the suffering of our Lord that purchased us these things.. then I will certainly take issue. In like manner, if someone begins to accuse my loving Father God of devilish behavior then I will take issue. I will also take issue when seemingly well meaning people try and talk the needy out of faith in God, the gospel, and the promises of God which were all made good by the suffering and death of our Lord.

me
Whether you brought them up first or someone else did is immaterial. I have read every post. And yes there is much you write that has nothing to do with the ‘faith’ movement. And there is much I agree with. But what you have written that I disagree with has nothing to do the gospel or the suffering of our Lord. You have said that it is wrong to be poor, that lack of faith keeps them poor. That the only physical ailment not cured by faith is old age [at least not yet.] It is for these statements, unprovoked as far as I can tell that you are challenged on. But it is you who wants to tie legitimate challenges to certain parts of your belief with the gospel and the glorifying of God. God gets no glory when you preach lies, or when I preach them.

As far as I can tell, you have not accomplished what you have set out to do, explain how many miss out on all faith has for them except to say they should pray more. That is all the practical advice you have given. By praying more the Spirit will increase our revelation faith knowledge so we can trust God for more of our lives. No one has disagreed with that practical advice at all.

But you have gone beyond simply that and made definite statements and ambiguous ones as well. It is for these positions you have been questioned. Your responses have been lame and incomplete, many times not addressing the heart of the matter and skirting the main objections. No one has tried to talk any needy person out of anything. Those were your attacks against non existent arguments, your straw men you erected. No one has accused God of devilish behavior, but simply asked you to explain scriptures that seemed to disagree with you. You take issues arbitrarily and not the ones raised.
end part one
 
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part two



You said:

#96 The Anti-faith danger
What the anti faith folks say all sounds very religious and devotional. It has a pious air about it. The problem is, it is not the gospel. It is dangerous because:



me.
No Christian is anti faith. No one who has objected to you on this thread has sounded very religious or devotional. You attack straw men. Disagreeing with you doesn¡¦t mean that anyone:

„h denies the work of Christ on the cross, the suffering that lead up do His death, the power of the resurrection that we share in, and the power of the word by which we appropriate the things that this gospel provides.
„h
Nor does my doctrine promotes a gospel of works and perfection by suffering., nor does it
„h Says that people can and must add to the work of Christ on the cross with some suffering of their own.

Nor does my doctrine says that we are perfected by our own efforts and not by the work of the gospel, nor
„h It says that what we receive from God is not based on the gospel and the name of Jesus, rather what we receive from God is based on some mysterious plan of God that includes our suffering and works.
„h It says that the name of Jesus has no effect in heaven: that the children of God can ask in the name of Jesus and the Father will say no! This in complete contradiction to the words of Jesus, Peter, John, and others.

What my doctrine says is that he gives us what we ask for when we ask in Him and not for earthly gain or pleasures.

„h This last point is the most serious because it comes very close to denying the Lordship of Jesus. To say that the name of Jesus does not have power and authority in heaven is very close to saying that He is not Lord over all. He is!!

But to say that God willy-nilly gives us anything we ask for is just as wrong.
My doctrine does not
„h set up some strange extra-gospel relationship with God which maintains that our efforts, sicknesses, and poverty are the methods God
uses to perfect and mature us.
„h In reality, it is faith in the gospel, Jesus, and the word that perfects us! Not our works or suffering. HERE WE AGREE.
„h
„h MY doctrine doesn¡¦t say that God can, for whatever reason, simply declare null and void the gospel and suffering of Jesus! It implies that He can just throw it out and not honor it!
„h
„h NEITHER DOES IT SAY that God does not have to keep His own word. At any given time He can decide not to honor His own promises. He can not heal those who ask in faith, refuse prayers offered in the name of Jesus, and just ignore the all the promises He has made.
„h NEITHER DOES IT SAY THAT He can deal with each of us on some "personal" level that does not work within the structure of the Word and the gospel.
„h UNBACKED UP GIBBERISH OPINIONHe can revert back to some Job-like covenant and start throwing sickness, death, demons, and disaster at us all designed to perfect us in some strange greek/roman-god scenario. All this in complete contradiction to the gospel and the new covenant. In this, it is very much like paganism and some new age-stare off into space spooky spiritualism.
„h NEITHER DOES IT attempt to render faith and the Word absolutely useless.
„h MINE DOES SAY We cannot know the will of God IN ALL CICUMSTANCES EXACTLY AND DEFINITLY.
„h MORE GIBBERISH Yor believe the promises of God because God deals with each of us individually in some this extra-gospel relationship. The Word might apply to us or it might not. There is really no way to know. Because we cannot know, we cannot have faith.
„h MY DOCTRINE IS NOT man centered rather than God centered. FOR IT DOES NOT relies on the suffering and faithfulness of men to save and perfect rather than the work of Christ in His passion and His present day Lordship at the right hand of the Father.

Hobie
In all these forums/discussions over the past 10 years, what has stuck in my mind most about the anti faith crowd is their self centered: my-feelings-are most-important attitude. They are more worried about promoting their own "faithfulness" than they are about promoting the cross and the gospel. Bottom line: faith people push Christ, the gospel, the Lordship of Jesus, and the love of the Father... while the anti-faith push self righteousness by being "faithful", self perfection by suffering, and glorification of the "unknown God" who they can never really know, understand, or truly believe in.



Bottom line, faith people push material blessings and a sugar daddy God. General statements are so bad aren¡¦t they? There may be plenty of people who do push what you say anti faith people push, and there are some ¡¥faith¡¦ people who push material blessings. But there are many that do not totally agree with you that are mischaracterized by you. Until you learn where the battle is, you will not know where to fight.

But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world and we can fake nothing out of it. But if we had food and clothing we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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ah ah ah..not scriptural....

"for it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to belive on him, but also to suffer for him."

Interesting scripture huh?

Phi 1:
28 and in nothing affrighted by the adversaries: which is for them an evident token of perdition, but of your salvation, and that from God;
29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:
30 having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.


It is clear from the context that Paul is talking about people who persecuted him because of the gospel, and now were persecuting the Philipians also for the same reason. This has nothing to do with sickness or poverty. (Why in the world would Jesus want us to suffer sickness or poverty for Him???)

However, we are required to suffer persecution at the hands of those who are against salvation and perfection by faith in Christ alone. In the frame of the current discussion, andrew :clap: , quaffer :clap: , and I are standing up and declaring that faith in Christ and the gospel to be the sole means of salvation, righteousness, and perfection. The persecutors :mad: in this context would be those who invent lies :( and misrepresent what we say in order to make us (and by inference the gospel) look bad :confused: .

 
 
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it was said;
#105


quote:
That is called -reading your doctrine into the word- not paraphrasing what is there. It is not paraphrasing but adding an interpretation foriegn to the actual text. It is sad that you try and disguise it as a paraphrase when all it is an addition to the text in order to interp it your way.



From Websters:
Paraphrase
PAR'APHRASE, n. s as z. [Gr. beyond, and phrase.] An explanation of some text or passage in a book, in a more clear and ample manner than is expressed in the words of the author. Such as the paraphrase of the New Testament by Erasmus.

In paraphrase, or translation with latitude, the author's words are not so strictly followed as his sense.

PAR'APHRASE, v.t. To explain, interpret or translate with latitude; to unfold the sense of an author with more clearness and particularity than it is expressed in his own words.

PAR'APHRASE, v.i. To interpret or explain amply; to make a paraphrase.

Where translation is impracticable, they may paraphrase.[/i]


(Hobie paraphrase)
"My grace(charima) is sufficient for you(to accomplish what you ask)... my power is comsummated (or accompished, or completed) in infirmity"


But you add your idea of his sense into the scripture, not what is derived from scripture. Where in the Word does it say God uses grace to accomplish what we ask?

He uses power to accomplish what we ask.

Grace is His reason to so act in our favor. Hobie's paraphrase distorts the whole message. God's grace TO us is sufficient FOR us to help us deal with situation at hand BECAUSE He chooses to unveil His POWER through our human weaknesses. We overcome the distress that comes upon us by relying on God. Sometimes He removes the thorn, sometimes He helps us be overcomers in spite of the thorn.

Faith then in God isn't NECESSARY for the removal of the thorn BUT for the ENDURING through the struggle. God left the thorn there for a reason AND did not answer Paul's prayer as Paul desired [as shown by Paul repeating the prayer]. Paul wanted the thorn gone, and God said , 'NO'. And then God told Paul that he [Paul] could endure the pain [the pain caused by the thorn] by trusting God [a trust God supplies by Grace] and that through the ordeal, God's power would be made perfect. In otherwords, God could work through Paul in a more powerful way in spite of and yes because of that thorn. God used the thorn to get His will accomplished through His servant Paul. Paul in learning this then gloried in the thorn and declared that he took pleasure in such things, knowing that his weaknesses became vessels for God's power to work through.

Certainly there is no hint anywhere that God was going to EVER answer Paul's prayer to remove the thorn with an affirmative this side of heaven.

Therefore Hobie's paraphrase distorted the Word, not added clarity.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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....I thought you were a misguided mature Christian, but I guess I can drop the mature part.


...Your arguments are specious, your answers without knowledge or wisdom.

...You haven’t any sense of history and are without sense

We'll just leave these hang out there and acknowledge the fact people in online debates really do not know each other well enough to make personal judgements and statements such as these.

Nor do we have to answer or respond to them.

Certainly not respond in kind.

So we won't. 

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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What material goods can the poor in Africa expect?

See posts 2, 54, 67, 70, 72, 81, 87

I have read all the posts. None of them explain anything. How hard is it to answer my question with a simple answer? Can they get a new car? How about a nice house? Will they get indoor plumbing? What?

I will repost #72 which sums up exactly what we can receive from God:

...you assume God wants to give you what you want. 


I don't recall the word want entering the discussion. But the fact is, if you can believe for something you 'want' you can have it. The key is: can you believe for it? If you know that it is the will God for you to have something, then you have every right to believe for it.

We are only limited by what we can believe for. What limits our faith? Faith is of the heart and is energized by love. Love believes. Love does not desire evil things so you cannot believe for evil things. Love does not believe for sin, or other things that are in the world. Since you cannot believe for these things, you cannot pray for them from your spirit.

What things are "of the world"?
Simple:


1Jo 2:
16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


You cannot ask for these things because they are not of the Father, and therefore not of the spirit that He has birthed into you. What can you believe for? A simple test is the "what is good and a blessing for my neighbor?" test.

For example: Jesus said to love thy neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them do to you. This is love at it's most basic level. If you would pray something for your neighbor out of love for him, then you could also pray for the same kind of thing... else you are not loving your neighbor as you are yourself. Not that I desire in my heart for the same things as my neighbor... but the principle is the same. You can ask for whatever you can believe for, and love is the determining factor in what you believe.

So... yes this would certainly include an automobile, a home,  or plumbing if that is what you can believe for.

BTW, I do not know if you know any believers from Africa, but I had some in my courses and yes... they do believe for and receive these things!  In fact it is easier for them to believe because they do not have all the religious baggage that American believers have. They are quite mystified as to why we doubt the words of Jesus:

Mar 11:24[/size] That's why I tell you to have faith that you have already received whatever you pray for, and it will be yours.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Oh yes I see, you wish to concentrate only on the scripture that shows God is loving.


WOW! There is something in this statement that is so telling... so obvious that I do not know why you cannot see it! Of course I concentrate on scripture that shows that God is loving. Do you know of any scripture that shows He is not??? Apparently you (think) you do! Please point out these 'God-is-not-loving' scriptures to me so I can concentrate on them!  

But you ignore every place that shows that God uses any negative reinforcement. Here you ignored the flogging we receive at God’s hands. Simply ignore it!

Funny that you equate a God that uses 'negative reinforcement' with one who is non-loving. I think your heart is telling you something that your mind does not want to admit: that God really is love and that a God who loves does not do the things that we see attributed to Him in this thread and others.

Define what you think 'negative reinforcement' is mike. Does it include killing, stealing, or destroying. Does it include the same actions that the NT attribute to the devil such as sickness. oppression, and persecution? Does it include anything that Jesus came to destroy, that is the works of the devil? Does it include anything that would require God break His own commandments or violate his own nature: love, kindness, etc.. as listed in the fruit of the spirit?

I am curious.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by Andrew
 

this is not for you for you are beyond sound reasoning but for others who have eyes to see and ears to hear...... 


 

 :D Thanks for that comment Andrew, I have been so incensed with his comment in the other thread that I needed my mourning (literally) to be turned to laughing.

Thank you Jesus for Your Joy.  The Joy of the Lord is our Strength.

 :clap:

 :D I'm still laughing

  

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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 Paul wanted the thorn gone, and God said , 'NO'.

You have the word no in quotes here, indicating you are quoting Paul or God. Please indicate chapter and verse where we can see the word "No'.

And then God told Paul that he (Paul) could endure the pain (the pain caused by the thorn)

Please give us some verse(s) where the words 'pain' and 'endure' are used in connection with the thorn.

Please give us some verse where we are called to be 'endurers' rather than 'overcomers'.

by trusting God [a trust God supplies by Grace] and that through the ordeal, God's power would be made perfect.

If I understand you correctly, the power of God is imperfect(???), and He needs our help (i.e. our enduring the ordeals of pain and suffering) to perfect it...

 God used the thorn to get His will accomplished through His servant Paul.

So God had to make paul sick to accomplish His will?

I believe the clear meaning here is that the power of God can only be manifested, or completed, or consummated (not "perfected"as if it were imperfect) where there is some weakness for it to manifest against. If nobody were sick... nobody would ever be healed, and that aspect of the power of God would never be manifest. Not to say God goes around putting sickness on people just so He can heal them. Nor did He allow this demon of satan to persecute Paul just so He could remove it. But the principle is there. Paul already had the grace or authority and power of God to remove this demon himself.

The term "grace" is constantly used in reference to the power, authority, ministry, and gifts of God at use in the church and believers:

Act 4
33  And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.


Act 14
3  Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.


Rom 1
4  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


Rom 12
6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7  Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8  Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.


2Co 9
8  And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:


Gal 2
8  (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


Eph 3
7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


Eph 4
7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


Phi 1
7  Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace
.

Paul had the GRACE (calling, ministry, power, and authority) sufficient to accomplish what he was asking God to do for him: remove the demon.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by hobart schmedly


You have the word no in quotes here, indicating you are quoting Paul or God. Please indicate chapter and verse where we can see the word "No'. 


 

Hey Hobie,

Good job brother. 

Just in case you don't know, the Living Bible paraphrases incorrectly and does use the word "no".  Bad paraphrase :(

However, it has been corrected in the New Living Bible:)

 
 
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Dear Hobie,
It was said,
quote:
In fact, it is a profession of faith to trust God through good and bad.


I know what you are saying friend because I thought this way for the first few years of my Christian life. This is good in that it is certainly better than cursing God... but I have to ask who is receiving glory in it: God or man? One might say that the man is because he is in essence saying:
"look at me... look how faithful I am and how much I love God! I am suffering for God and am a good and faithful undergoer."


Two things.
One, you again mischaracterize by generalizing. You like to throw anyone who disagrees with you into the same bag and label all of them as the worst of them. There are many who suffer tribulation in this world who never attempt to draw attention to themselves. Therefore since you neglect to include these in your summary, your summary is false.

And then,
In my mind, this glorifies the man and his efforts to endure rather than God and His power to overcome. God wants us to be overcomers , not undergoers .

Jesus wants us to ask and receive so that the Father be glorified.


Of course after you have set up a straw man, you conclude this. But that position above is not of anyone I have ever met. To overcome this world is to endure until the end. It is not to be rich supermen.


Joh 14:
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
13 And whatever any of you ask in my name, I will do, in order that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If you make any request of me in my name, I will do it.

I do not see where He said for us to suffer in religious devotional silence. That does not glorify God. I would rather do it His way, give Him the glory, and push all this religious stuff aside!


Except Jesus, Paul, the apostles and countless others have suffered. Peter and John even praised God for their suffering for the name of Jesus. Jesus suffered and He opened not His mouth, instead relying on His Father, trusting Him for final deliverance. Paul suffered through many things. These things I have brought up to you repeatedly and you have ignored them.


Then
quote:
Are you seriuos? What do you think forgiving sins is all about. He did that and heals the man's spirit whose friends dropped him down, THEN as proof that he did it he healed him physically. Not the other way around. Oh boy oh boy, you're way off on this one.

Sins are forgiven, bodies are healed. It does not say He healed the man's sins any more than He forgave his sickness. Again and again in scripture the distinction is made between healing and forgiveness.

Jam 5
15 and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working. .

Beyond that:
the body is parallel to spirit, and
healing is parallell to forgiveness.
Bodies are healed of sicknesses.
But spirits are not forgiven. Sins are forgiven. Sickness is the condition of in body and it is the body that is healed, not the sickness. To compare healing and forgiveness is comparing apples and bowling. They are not even in the same category.
A sin is an action that needs to be forgiven.
A body is a thing needs to be healed.
There is simply no logical comparison between the two that one could use to combine or interchange them. It is true as we saw above that once sins are forgiven, then bodies can be healed. Sickness may be the result of sins commited. This fact just further proves the difference between the two. Once sins are forgiven(not spirits healed), then bodies can be healed.

We are simply not healed of sins any more than we are forgiven of sicknesses. It simple does not make sense.


Even as you mentioned earlier, there are the sins we do and the sinfulness we are. Because healing is parallel to forgiveness, one could say the stripes heal the spirit to describe what Jesus did for us on the cross.

But to say that spirits are not forgiven is wrong. When we forgive someone who has sinned against us, we are forgiving them FOR the sin they did to us. To say that your sins are forgiven is just a way of saying you are forgiven. And the ‘you’ includes the whole person, body, mind and spirit.

When forgiveness is given the offense that separates the two is taken away. Therefore the object of forgiveness is not simply the wrong action, but the one who took the offending action.

Likewise, when we are defiled by sin we need to be made right before God. Jesus did that for us on the cross, His pain and suffering taking the place of our deserved pain and suffering so that we as whole men, including the Spirit may live forever with God. When we are born again, we receive a new spirit. As we live here on earth, our mind is being renewed, and after we leave this world, we receive a changed or transformed body. The goal then of our continued existence on this earth is to glorify God by overcoming the world by the new spirit we have learning to walk pleasing to the Father [the renewing of our mind], even as we live in a dying and decaying body.

Those who trust the Lord have no guarantee that they will escape pain and/or suffering as they live out their lives both in a hostile world which seeks to persecute God’s children, and also in a dying and decaying body which subjects us to its unregenerated daily death.

And as neither Jesus not the apostles sought after worldly goods, neither are we, but instead as Paul did, we are to be content in whatever circumstance we find ourselves in. And if we receive more than what we need, we are to share it with others.


Then,

quote:

What material goods can the poor in Africa expect?

See posts 2, 54, 67, 70, 72, 81, 87

I have read all the posts. None of them explain anything. How hard is it to answer my question with a simple answer? Can they get a new car? How about a nice house? Will they get indoor plumbing? What?


I will repost #72 which sums up exactly what we can receive from God:

...you assume God wants to give you what you want.


I don't recall the word want entering the discussion. But the fact is, if you can believe for something you 'want' you can have it. The key is: can you believe for it? If you know that it is the will God for you to have something, then you have every right to believe for it.


According to your earlier posts, the will of God is revealed in the Word.


We are only limited by what we can believe for. What limits our faith? Faith is of the heart and is energized by love. Love believes. Love does not desire evil things so you cannot believe for evil things. Love does not believe for sin, or other things that are in the world. Since you cannot believe for these things, you cannot pray for them from your spirit.

What things are "of the world"?
Simple:

1Jo 2:
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

You cannot ask for these things because they are not of the Father, and therefore not of the spirit that He has birthed into you. What can you believe for? A simple test is the "what is good and a blessing for my neighbor?" test.

For example: Jesus said to love thy neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them do to you. This is love at it's most basic level. If you would pray something for your neighbor out of love for him, then you could also pray for the same kind of thing... else you are not loving your neighbor as you are yourself. Not that I desire in my heart for the same things as my neighbor... but the principle is the same. You can ask for whatever you can believe for, and love is the determining factor in what you believe.

So... yes this would certainly include an automobile, a home, or plumbing if that is what you can believe for.


Hahaha. You are so funny. So if I want whatever, all I have to do to justify my want of it is to think, ‘could I pray that my neighbor has one of these also?’ and if so, then I could get one. Wouldn’t it be better though if you said instead of ‘IF” you would pray something for your neighbor, BUT WHEN you pray something for your neighbor?

Well, maybe not, since it seems your goal is to acquire material possessions. Your neighbor may not want a new car, or whatever. But wouldn’t it be neat if you could pray that all your neighbors have new cars? Then go tell them you prayed for that so that God might be glorified? Or better yet, since you want all those in the neighborhood hospital well [since you yourself want to be well], you could pray that they all be cured now. Could God refuse your prayer? Wouldn’t he have to give you what you ask?

BTW, I do not know if you know any believers from Africa, but I had some in my courses and yes... they do believe for and receive these things! In fact it is easier for them to believe because they do not have all the religious baggage that American believers have. They are quite mystified as to why we doubt the words of Jesus:

Mar 11:24[/size] That's why I tell you to have faith that you have already received whatever you pray for, and it will be yours.


Some people in Africa live in nice cities and have good jobs. Some people live in the back countries and barely scrape by. Your answer is void of reality. Likewise all down through history there have been many Christians who have been poor and had to make do with the meager resources available. You live in a rich country and seem to assume that all people everywhere live like that. Some are able to offer up praise to God despite the hunger in their stomachs or the tired ache in their bones. Their neighbors receive a far greater witness of one who overcomes this world to the glory of God than your materialistic doctrine can provide.

quote:
Me
Oh yes I see, you wish to concentrate only on the scripture that shows God is loving.


WOW! There is something in this statement that is so telling... so obvious that I do not know why you cannot see it! Of course I concentrate on scripture that shows that God is loving. Do you know of any scripture that shows he is not??? Apparently you (think) you do! Please point out these 'God-is-not-loving' scriptures to me so I can concentrate on them!

quote:
But you ignore every place that shows that God uses any negative reinforcement. Here you ignored the flogging we receive at God’s hands. Simply ignore it!


Funny that you equate a God that uses 'negative reinforcement' with one who is non-loving. I think your heart is telling you something that your mind does not want to admit: that God really is love and that a God who loves does not do the things that we see attributed to Him in this thread and others.


Maybe you truly misunderstood me. So let me reword what I was saying. First I do not think God as non-loving in any action He takes towards His children. I simply worded it that way to contrast what you were calling non-loving with what you were calling loving. Like in Hebrews where you ignore Him scourging us. And where you have ignored my repeated requests to explain how the god you describe would willfully scourge his own children.

[/I]
Define what you think 'negative reinforcement' is mike. Does it include killing, stealing, or destroying. Does it include the same actions that the NT attribute to the devil such as sickness. oppression, and persecution? Does it include anything that Jesus came to destroy, that is the works of the devil? Does it include anything that would require God break His own commandments or violate his own nature: love, kindness, etc.. as listed in the fruit of the spirit? [/I]
It does include scourging. That obviously doesn’t mean a literal whipping but it does imply God applying pain of some sort to those He loves. The Scripture in Hebrews affirms that when it says that the discipline is painful. Some lessons children need to learn are that actions bring consequences. Many times we learn these lessons on a small scale so that we know to avoid doing the wrong things in a larger context that would bring greater trouble on us.

If we never sinned, would we need discipline? But we do sin, we are imperfect. Part of renewing our minds is learning God’s ways as we unlearn our old ways. That can be painful. Not every sinful way is obvious to us at first, since many have been ingrained into our minds from young ages. Not every Christian has the proper family around him or her that is needed to help them through properly. Many have been taught false and erroneous doctrines. Your sweeping generalizations are false because the broom you use is too wide. Your doctrine is false because your vision is too narrow.


[
 
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quote:
Paul wanted the thorn gone, and God said , 'NO'.


You have the word no in quotes here, indicating you are quoting Paul or God. Please indicate chapter and verse where we can see the word "No'.

quote:
And then God told Paul that he (Paul) could endure the pain (the pain caused by the thorn)


Please give us some verse(s) where the words 'pain' and 'endure' are used in connection with the thorn.


Well the normal reading of this passage is that Paul received a ‘No’. That when he asked God to remove the thorn, God said that His grace was sufficient, that His power was made perfect in weakness. So Paul in response to that did NOT say praise God for removing the thorn, but rather he boasted in his weaknesses, and took pleasure in his weaknesses so that the power of God might overshadow him all the more.

Was there no pain? The idea of a thorn in one’s side demands it. Was Paul NOT to endure it? Did he not pray more than once that it be removed? Do you think Paul means that all three prayers happened at one time? No –then Paul prayed over some period of time and had to endure at least until it was removed, IF it ever was.

Please give us some verse where we are called to be 'endurers' rather than 'overcomers'.


Endurers are overcomers. You simply do not seem to understand what an endurer or an overcomer is.
2nd Tim 3:11
Mat 10:22
1st Peter 2:19-24
James 5:11
Hebrews 12:7
2nd Tim 4:5
2nd Tim 2:10
2nd Tim 2:1-3
Mark 13:13
Ps 89:29
James 1:12

So whether it is the discipline of the Lord, or the persecutions of the enemy, or the temptation to sin, we are to endure. To overcome means to conquer, to prevail, to get the victory. To endure is what you do while you are prevailing, while you are conquering, while you are getting the victory. And who is it that conquers for us? It is Christ. So while we wait for the victory we trust in God. And in the prevailing, we trust in God until He delivers us. And once you have your eyes fixed on the prize, you run the race with patience, enduring the pain and pressing on towards the goal.

quote:
by trusting God [a trust God supplies by Grace] and that through the ordeal, God's power would be made perfect.


If I understand you correctly, the power of God is imperfect(???), and He needs our help (i.e. our enduring the ordeals of pain and suffering) to perfect it...


The scripture says that His strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul then says he therefore took pleasure in his weaknesses that through them he would be made strong. You seek to twist my words instead of dealing with the scripture itself. I never said [as the scriptures did not either] that the power of God was imperfect. But you, a self proclaimed teacher of the Word, do not seem to know what this passage means. You distort it to match your doctrine and then distort my words as to buttress up your position. That is sad.



quote:
God used the thorn to get His will accomplished through His servant Paul.


So God had to make paul sick to accomplish His will?

Did I say that Paul was sick? Are you paying attention to your INDIVIDUAL debaters, or are you assuming they all agree with eachother? Like I reproved you before, throwing all of them into one big pot and assuming they are all the same is a false way of dealing with people. Sure, it is easier for you, but it is sin.

I believe the clear meaning here is that the power of God can only be manifested, or completed, or consummated (not "perfected"as if it were imperfect) where there is some weakness for it to manifest against. If nobody were sick... nobody would ever be healed, and that aspect of the power of God would never be manifest. Not to say God goes around putting sickness on people just so He can heal them. Nor did He allow this demon of satan to persecute Paul just so He could remove it. But the principle is there. Paul already had the grace or authority and power of God to remove this demon himself.


If Paul had this authority, why didn’t he simply exercise it? You simply assume Paul had it. Nor does the Scripture tell us that God allowed it so He could remove it. Nor does it say it was ever removed. But the reason the thorn ws there is told us, verse 7.

“And lest I should become exalted above measure or in abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan, to buffet me, lest I become exalted above measure.”

Now Satan would like to see the servants of God puffed in pride beyond measure would he not? God allowed this thorn from Satan to do afflict Paul in order to accomplish not what satan wanted, but God had another goal in mind: so that Paul would not be exalted above measure. For Paul’s mission was to show Christ, not exalt Paul. But God knowing the frailty and sinfulness of humans, knew that Paul would be exalted either by others or possibly by himself due to his ministry. So God allowed there to be a problem in Paul’s life that Paul could only endure and overcome by trusting God. So Paul learned that by enduring , he was overcoming and was thankful for the thorn and other weaknesses.

The term "grace" is constantly used in reference to the power, authority, ministry, and gifts of God at use in the church and believers:

Act 4
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Act 14
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.


Grace and power are used separately in the above verses.


Rom 1
4 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 12
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

2Co 9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Gal 2
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Eph 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Phi 1
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.


None of those verses prove your point.[/I]

Paul had the GRACE (calling, ministry, power, and authority) sufficient to accomplish what he was asking God to do for him: remove the demon.[/I]

That is pure conjecture and imagination on your part. If Paul had the power why did he ask God three times for God to remove it? Why did he take pleasure in having it? Your whole interp of this passage is wrong.


quote:
by trusting God [a trust God supplies by Grace] and that through the ordeal, God's power would be made perfect.


If I understand you correctly, the power of God is imperfect(???), and He needs our help (i.e. our enduring the ordeals of pain and suffering) to perfect it...


The scripture says that His strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul then says he therefore took pleasure in his weaknesses that through them he would be made strong. You seek to twist my words instead of dealing with the scripture itself. I never said [as the scriptures did not either] that the power of God was imperfect. But you, a self proclaimed teacher of the Word, do not seem to know what this passage means. You distort it to match your doctrine and then distort my words as to buttress up your position. That is sad.



quote:
God used the thorn to get His will accomplished through His servant Paul.


So God had to make paul sick to accomplish His will?

Did I say that Paul was sick? Are you paying attention to your INDIVIDUAL debaters, or are you assuming they all agree with eachother? Like I reproved you before, throwing all of them into one big pot and assuming they are all the same is a false way of dealing with people. Sure, it is easier for you, but it is sin.

I believe the clear meaning here is that the power of God can only be manifested, or completed, or consummated (not "perfected"as if it were imperfect) where there is some weakness for it to manifest against. If nobody were sick... nobody would ever be healed, and that aspect of the power of God would never be manifest. Not to say God goes around putting sickness on people just so He can heal them. Nor did He allow this demon of satan to persecute Paul just so He could remove it. But the principle is there. Paul already had the grace or authority and power of God to remove this demon himself.


If Paul had this authority, why didn’t he simply exercise it? You simply assume Paul had it. Nor does the Scripture tell us that God allowed it so He could remove it. Nor does it say it was ever removed. But the reason the thorn ws there is told us, verse 7.

“And lest I should become exalted above measure or in abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan, to buffet me, lest I become exalted above measure.”

Now Satan would like to see the servants of God puffed in pride beyond measure would he not? God allowed this thorn from Satan to do afflict Paul in order to accomplish not what satan wanted, but God had another goal in mind: so that Paul would not be exalted above measure. For Paul’s mission was to show Christ, not exalt Paul. But God knowing the frailty and sinfulness of humans, knew that Paul would be exalted either by others or possibly by himself due to his ministry. So God allowed there to be a problem in Paul’s life that Paul could only endure and overcome by trusting God. So Paul learned that by enduring , he was overcoming and was thankful for the thorn and other weaknesses.

The term "grace" is constantly used in reference to the power, authority, ministry, and gifts of God at use in the church and believers:

Act 4
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Act 14
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.


Grace and power are used separately in the above verses.


Rom 1
4 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 12
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

2Co 9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Gal 2
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Eph 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Phi 1
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.


None of those verses prove your point.[/I]

Paul had the GRACE (calling, ministry, power, and authority) sufficient to accomplish what he was asking God to do for him: remove the demon.[/I]

That is pure conjecture and imagination on your part. If Paul had the power why did he ask God three times for God to remove it? Why did he take pleasure in having it? Your whole interp of this passage is wrong.
 
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LouisBooth

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"2Co 12:7 "

ahh..I see that you think that Paul is an illogical writter then? He just drifts off into nevernever land when writting his letters and is not organized in any way shape or form. If you properly read the scriptures, sometimes sickness can be an agent of satan. Read job sometime, its quite enlightening, then you can deal with the problem of the context of the passage implying it was a physical thing.

"However, we are required to suffer persecution at the hands of those who are against salvation and perfection by faith in Christ alone. "

No, in the context of this discussion, you three would say, if you're sick or have some sort of disability you're just not faithful enough. That's clearly what your words have implied. Maybe not you directly hob, but your two "fellows" have said just that and you side with them. Again, you really need to read the book of Phillipians, it talks all about suffering for Christ and how we SHOULD go through it. It was written for people like you ;) Your statement is quite wrong. We can (and if you're a GOOD christian) you will suffer spiritually. Job is a great example. God allowed it to happen.
 
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LouisBooth

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"If I understand you correctly, the power of God is imperfect(???), and He needs our help (i.e. our enduring the ordeals of pain and suffering) to perfect it...
"

Funny how you are going about twisting here....Paul clearly had to endure something painful didn't he? What weakness do you think he was talking about huh? In most other letters Paul boasts in God about being a spiritual giant and close to God. So tell me, what type of weakness was he talking about?
 
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