quote:
Paul wanted the thorn gone, and God said , 'NO'.
You have the word no in quotes here, indicating you are quoting Paul or God. Please indicate chapter and verse where we can see the word "No'.
quote:
And then God told Paul that he (Paul) could endure the pain (the pain caused by the thorn)
Please give us some verse(s) where the words 'pain' and 'endure' are used in connection with the thorn.
Well the normal reading of this passage is that Paul received a No. That when he asked God to remove the thorn, God said that His grace was sufficient, that His power was made perfect in weakness. So Paul in response to that did NOT say praise God for removing the thorn, but rather he boasted in his weaknesses, and took pleasure in his weaknesses so that the power of God might overshadow him all the more.
Was there no pain? The idea of a thorn in ones side demands it. Was Paul NOT to endure it? Did he not pray more than once that it be removed? Do you think Paul means that all three prayers happened at one time? No then Paul prayed over some period of time and had to endure at least until it was removed, IF it ever was.
Please give us some verse where we are called to be 'endurers' rather than 'overcomers'.
Endurers are overcomers. You simply do not seem to understand what an endurer or an overcomer is.
2nd Tim 3:11
Mat 10:22
1st Peter 2:19-24
James 5:11
Hebrews 12:7
2nd Tim 4:5
2nd Tim 2:10
2nd Tim 2:1-3
Mark 13:13
Ps 89:29
James 1:12
So whether it is the discipline of the Lord, or the persecutions of the enemy, or the temptation to sin, we are to endure. To overcome means to conquer, to prevail, to get the victory. To endure is what you do while you are prevailing, while you are conquering, while you are getting the victory. And who is it that conquers for us? It is Christ. So while we wait for the victory we trust in God. And in the prevailing, we trust in God until He delivers us. And once you have your eyes fixed on the prize, you run the race with patience, enduring the pain and pressing on towards the goal.
quote:
by trusting God [a trust God supplies by Grace] and that through the ordeal, God's power would be made perfect.
If I understand you correctly, the power of God is imperfect(???), and He needs our help (i.e. our enduring the ordeals of pain and suffering) to perfect it...
The scripture says that His strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul then says he therefore took pleasure in his weaknesses that through them he would be made strong. You seek to twist my words instead of dealing with the scripture itself. I never said [as the scriptures did not either] that the power of God was imperfect. But you, a self proclaimed teacher of the Word, do not seem to know what this passage means. You distort it to match your doctrine and then distort my words as to buttress up your position. That is sad.
quote:
God used the thorn to get His will accomplished through His servant Paul.
So God had to make paul sick to accomplish His will?
Did I say that Paul was sick? Are you paying attention to your INDIVIDUAL debaters, or are you assuming they all agree with eachother? Like I reproved you before, throwing all of them into one big pot and assuming they are all the same is a false way of dealing with people. Sure, it is easier for you, but it is sin.
I believe the clear meaning here is that the power of God can only be manifested, or completed, or consummated (not "perfected"as if it were imperfect) where there is some weakness for it to manifest against. If nobody were sick... nobody would ever be healed, and that aspect of the power of God would never be manifest. Not to say God goes around putting sickness on people just so He can heal them. Nor did He allow this demon of satan to persecute Paul just so He could remove it. But the principle is there. Paul already had the grace or authority and power of God to remove this demon himself.
If Paul had this authority, why didnt he simply exercise it? You simply assume Paul had it. Nor does the Scripture tell us that God allowed it so He could remove it. Nor does it say it was ever removed. But the reason the thorn ws there is told us, verse 7.
And lest I should become exalted above measure or in abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan, to buffet me, lest I become exalted above measure.
Now Satan would like to see the servants of God puffed in pride beyond measure would he not? God allowed this thorn from Satan to do afflict Paul in order to accomplish not what satan wanted, but God had another goal in mind: so that Paul would not be exalted above measure. For Pauls mission was to show Christ, not exalt Paul. But God knowing the frailty and sinfulness of humans, knew that Paul would be exalted either by others or possibly by himself due to his ministry. So God allowed there to be a problem in Pauls life that Paul could only endure and overcome by trusting God. So Paul learned that by enduring , he was overcoming and was thankful for the thorn and other weaknesses.
The term "grace" is constantly used in reference to the power, authority, ministry, and gifts of God at use in the church and believers:
Act 4
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 14
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Grace and power are used separately in the above verses.
Rom 1
4 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 12
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
2Co 9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Gal 2
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Phi 1
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
None of those verses prove your point.[/I]
Paul had the GRACE (calling, ministry, power, and authority) sufficient to accomplish what he was asking God to do for him: remove the demon.[/I]
That is pure conjecture and imagination on your part. If Paul had the power why did he ask God three times for God to remove it? Why did he take pleasure in having it? Your whole interp of this passage is wrong.
quote:
by trusting God [a trust God supplies by Grace] and that through the ordeal, God's power would be made perfect.
If I understand you correctly, the power of God is imperfect(???), and He needs our help (i.e. our enduring the ordeals of pain and suffering) to perfect it...
The scripture says that His strength is made perfect in weakness. Paul then says he therefore took pleasure in his weaknesses that through them he would be made strong. You seek to twist my words instead of dealing with the scripture itself. I never said [as the scriptures did not either] that the power of God was imperfect. But you, a self proclaimed teacher of the Word, do not seem to know what this passage means. You distort it to match your doctrine and then distort my words as to buttress up your position. That is sad.
quote:
God used the thorn to get His will accomplished through His servant Paul.
So God had to make paul sick to accomplish His will?
Did I say that Paul was sick? Are you paying attention to your INDIVIDUAL debaters, or are you assuming they all agree with eachother? Like I reproved you before, throwing all of them into one big pot and assuming they are all the same is a false way of dealing with people. Sure, it is easier for you, but it is sin.
I believe the clear meaning here is that the power of God can only be manifested, or completed, or consummated (not "perfected"as if it were imperfect) where there is some weakness for it to manifest against. If nobody were sick... nobody would ever be healed, and that aspect of the power of God would never be manifest. Not to say God goes around putting sickness on people just so He can heal them. Nor did He allow this demon of satan to persecute Paul just so He could remove it. But the principle is there. Paul already had the grace or authority and power of God to remove this demon himself.
If Paul had this authority, why didnt he simply exercise it? You simply assume Paul had it. Nor does the Scripture tell us that God allowed it so He could remove it. Nor does it say it was ever removed. But the reason the thorn ws there is told us, verse 7.
And lest I should become exalted above measure or in abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan, to buffet me, lest I become exalted above measure.
Now Satan would like to see the servants of God puffed in pride beyond measure would he not? God allowed this thorn from Satan to do afflict Paul in order to accomplish not what satan wanted, but God had another goal in mind: so that Paul would not be exalted above measure. For Pauls mission was to show Christ, not exalt Paul. But God knowing the frailty and sinfulness of humans, knew that Paul would be exalted either by others or possibly by himself due to his ministry. So God allowed there to be a problem in Pauls life that Paul could only endure and overcome by trusting God. So Paul learned that by enduring , he was overcoming and was thankful for the thorn and other weaknesses.
The term "grace" is constantly used in reference to the power, authority, ministry, and gifts of God at use in the church and believers:
Act 4
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 14
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Grace and power are used separately in the above verses.
Rom 1
4 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 12
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
2Co 9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Gal 2
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Phi 1
7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
None of those verses prove your point.[/I]
Paul had the GRACE (calling, ministry, power, and authority) sufficient to accomplish what he was asking God to do for him: remove the demon.[/I]
That is pure conjecture and imagination on your part. If Paul had the power why did he ask God three times for God to remove it? Why did he take pleasure in having it? Your whole interp of this passage is wrong.