Revelation's "Satan" is not Satan!

lordvoldemort · Aug 17, 2006

The Ottoman Centuries: The rise and fall of the Turkish Empire, by Lord Kinross

"A people who saw themselves not simply as Turks. . .But Osmanlis, followers of Osman (Ottoman comes from). Theirs was simply one among the ten successor-states which survived from the Selijuk Empire and the Mongol protectorate- and still one of the smallest. . .," page:25.]

from this as well as what John an Daniel describe as "Ten horns" and the fact that the Ottoman Empire over took the Byzantium Empire (which was part of the Roman Empire) the same as Ptolomey and Selecuid empire were part of the Macedonian empire of Alexander the Great.

So I believe that the 7th empire already came.

Now i have a question to those that see the 7th empire as future. John writes "Five have fallen and one is and one is yet to come, but there will be an 8th and it will be of the 7th and it will go into perdition." Now obvious it seems like there will be 8 empires and the 8th one will come from the seventh one after its obvious defeat, so who is the 7th one and who is the 8th one according to your belief.

lordvoldemort · Aug 17, 2006

Phoenix said:
The beauty of good commentary argues against you.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/beast17.htm

That is an opinion, just as mine is an opinion. That does not mean they are infallable, that means with the information they have and their preceptions they create their opinion. Just as I take what i know and create my opinion.

I do not take anyone at face value, i research what they say and see if it stands. The traditional view of this passage i found to be lacking with the text at hand and the use of the word and the descriptions of what is being said.

I did not wake up one day and say "Oh, Satan in revelation does not exist!" No, I came to this conclusion through many trials and erros, trying to ascertain what the passage meant. And that meant looking at the book and the bible with no presuppostions of meanings, which many people approach the bible with.

Let it say what it says with out what you have been told and what you think the passages mean and let God speak to you and you may come across something new and different.

I have talked to people and when they look at the bible without their traditional glasses, tend to agree more with what i say or come to the same conclusion i did, independant of my influence.

brother daniel · Aug 17, 2006

lordvoldemort said:
, so who is the 7th one and who is the 8th one according to your belief.

Beloved Voldmort,
I differ with the standard lineup because Assyria never controled the RICH Sea trade. It stayed under control of the EGYPTION Israelites, OF Carthage, called PHONECIANS BY THE GREEKS

The unbroken maritime syndacate, that is leviathen, the seven headed Beast coming out of the sea is:
Egypt
Israel
Babylon
Persia
Greece
Rome
ANGLO AMERICA

And ZIONIST ISRAEL is the 8th, Very small in number but controling global banking.

I have no doubt that the Ottoman Turks with there Jewish, Khazar system of religious and political plurelism were gnostic forunners of
the Corsican Revolution 0f 1755
The American Revolution of 1776
and the French Revolution of 17891799)

My point is Satans business is sex slavery and the war racket .

But to wrap it up here is the scripture that identifies the eigth head.
Ezekiel. 21:24
And thou PROFANE WICKED PRINCE OF ISRAEL, whos day is come when INIQUITY shall have an end.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Phoenix · Aug 17, 2006

I can certainly understand what your saying but your setting up a pretty good double standard when you say

And that meant looking at the book and the bible with no presuppostions of meanings, which many people approach the bible with.

and then go on to say

The traditional view of this passage i found to be lacking with the text at hand and the use of the word and the descriptions of what is being said.

Because the nature of what you believe is implying something on text in which you've learned and then saying it's not ok for others to do so.

This only allows you to feel good about and back up what you say - it gives you an out to say you believe what you want and i'll believe what i want.

Actually i have no problem with that.

However, oh him who wisheth to kill Harry Potter, in the commentary i linked it lets Scripture interpret Scripture. It doesn't force meaning on the text and even argues against itself in some points. It's pretty solid. If your going to argue against a non traditional view you'll have to do a lot better than that.

If anyone else would like this it's a good link from Duke University.

http://www.ntgateway.com/rev.htm

lordvoldemort · Aug 17, 2006

Phoenix said:
However, oh him who wisheth to kill Harry Potter, in the commentary i linked it lets Scripture interpret Scripture. It doesn't force meaning on the text and even argues against itself in some points. It's pretty solid. If your going to argue against a non traditional view you'll have to do a lot better than that.

If anyone else would like this it's a good link from Duke University.

http://www.ntgateway.com/rev.htm

Im arguing for a non traditional view, im not arguing a non traditional view.

What i was saying was that when i come to my conclusion with little presupostion of meaning. Like most people come to revelation with the presuppostion that "Satan" is Satan (which is reasonable) but for this book it is wrong to do. Of all the books, this is a book to come to with a clean slate and then build up from there.

Im all for scripture interpreting scripture. But as i said revelation should not be taken like the other books of the bible, it should be approached with a clean slate, and then built up from there.

brother daniel · Aug 17, 2006

brother daniel said:
Beloved Voldmort,
I differ with the standard lineup because Assyria never controled the RICH Sea trade. It stayed under control of the EGYPTION Israelites, OF Carthage, called PHONECIANS BY THE GREEKS

The unbroken maritime syndacate, that is leviathen, the seven headed Beast coming out of the sea is:
Egypt
Israel
Babylon
Persia
Greece
Rome
ANGLO AMERICA

And ZIONIST ISRAEL is the 8th, Very small in number but controling global banking.

I have no doubt that the Ottoman Turks with there Jewish, Khazar system of religious and political plurelism were gnostic forunners of
the Corsican Revolution 0f 1755
The American Revolution of 1776
and the French Revolution of 17891799)

My point is Satans business is sex slavery and the war racket .

But to wrap it up here is the scripture that identifies the eigth head.
Ezekiel. 21:24
And thou PROFANE WICKED PRINCE OF ISRAEL, whos day is come when INIQUITY shall have an end.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Satan is Satan. He speaks through any who are not listening to the Holy Spirit.

with love in Christ
brother daniel

Phoenix · Aug 18, 2006

But as i said revelation should not be taken like the other books of the bible, it should be approached with a clean slate, and then built up from there.

Maybe i should ask that you define " clean slate " before i answer.

youdahman · Aug 18, 2006

voldemort, context alone proves Revelation is talking about the Satan that tried to tempt Jesus. we have the reference to "his angels" for one.

Another is the reference to that old snake, the devil, which is a reference to Genesis when Eve was tempted into sin by Satan masked as a snake.

Now on to the reason why you believe Satan in Revelation is not THE SATAN is because it has 7 horns and 10 heads.

Recall when Peter was in the spirit of Satan, what did Jesus do?

Matthew 16:23 (Whole Chapter)
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

if you understand this, then you can understand the symbolism of Satan with 10 heads and seven horns. THis means that those 10 heads and seven horns which represent the endtime enemy of Christ People will be under the control and spirit of Satan when they shall seek to destry God's People much similar in the way Satan was in control of Peter during Matthew 16.

lordvoldemort · Aug 18, 2006

Phoenix said:
Maybe i should ask that you define " clean slate " before i answer.

No presuposition of what things are or mean.

Most people take what they "know" and apply it to Revelation, where as it should be, take what revealtion says and apply it to the bible.

The way i came up with my conclusion is that i took what revelation said and then applied it to what the bible says, not what others say the bible says or what the "proper" meaning is.

lordvoldemort · Aug 18, 2006

youdahman said:
voldemort, context alone proves Revelation is talking about the Satan that tried to tempt Jesus. we have the reference to "his angels" for one.
Angels in the greek menas messangers or followers, you could be an angel of Paul, or a messanger of Paul. The angles mention here is the followers of the Empire, the messangers of the Empire.

Another is the reference to that old snake, the devil, which is a reference to Genesis when Eve was tempted into sin by Satan masked as a snake.
That too is not right, "Satan" is described as a "Dragon" a reptile, a Snake. It is refering to Daniel description of the last empire, a beast with ten horns (John refers back to by the description of it) The context in Genesis and in Revalation do not fit nor match each other.

Now on to the reason why you believe Satan in Revelation is not THE SATAN is because it has 7 horns and 10 heads.

Recall when Peter was in the spirit of Satan, what did Jesus do?

Matthew 16:23 (Whole Chapter)
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
As I said when i answered this earlier, it is refering to Peter not to "Satan" at that moment Peter became an enemy of christ when he tried to hinder him from going to the cross.

if you understand this, then you can understand the symbolism of Satan with 10 heads and seven horns. THis means that those 10 heads and seven horns which represent the endtime enemy of Christ People will be under the control and spirit of Satan when they shall seek to destry God's People much similar in the way Satan was in control of Peter during Matthew 16.
I think you are reaching a bit, trying to tie these two passages together, one you are asking me to see the verse the way you do (obvious I don't) also I as said, The description of Satan in Revelation is matching the same description of the other beast of Revelation and to Daniel. That alone tells me that they are all the same thing.

Just because "Satan" is mentioned does not mean that it is refering to the being that tempted Christ. Just as i used the word Messiah, just because it is mentioned or used does not mean it is refering to Christ. Isaiah used it to refer to Cyrus the Great of Persia.

youdahman · Aug 19, 2006

lordvoldemort said:
Just because "Satan" is mentioned does not mean that it is refering to the being that tempted Christ. Just as i used the word Messiah, just because it is mentioned or used does not mean it is refering to Christ. Isaiah used it to refer to Cyrus the Great of Persia.

What more can one do? You see the bible texts and in its context. You see the bible sayign it clearly giving it 3 characteristics, DEVIL, Satan, SERPENT, it is talking about one thing, the enemy of God. This should be one of the easy ones, but you are trying to see something that is not there.

Best advice i can give you is to pray about it and ask the holy spirit to give you understanding, and not your own understanding.

Provers 3:5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Also, where in the bible does it talk about Messiah being Cyrus?

brother daniel · Aug 19, 2006

lordvoldemort said:
Just because "Satan" is mentioned does not mean that it is refering to the being that tempted Christ. Just as i used the word Messiah, just because it is mentioned or used does not mean it is refering to Christ. Isaiah used it to refer to Cyrus the Great of Persia.

Beloved voldmort,

Your stance as a devils' advocate is not a wise one for a disciple of Jesus.

You are taking a one person position and presenting it as truth. So far no brother or sister in Christ in HIS Spirit agreed with you on your personal interpetation of Satan.

If you don’t care, so be it.

We all have much to learn. You seem attached to your personal conclusions and defending them with many sunjective word.

I thank you for drawing my attention to the GOG TURKS
They are a peace of the puzzle.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

lordvoldemort · Aug 19, 2006

youdahman said:
What more can one do? You see the bible texts and in its context. You see the bible sayign it clearly giving it 3 characteristics, DEVIL, Satan, SERPENT, it is talking about one thing, the enemy of God. This should be one of the easy ones, but you are trying to see something that is not there.

Best advice i can give you is to pray about it and ask the holy spirit to give you understanding, and not your own understanding.

Provers 3:5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Also, where in the bible does it talk about Messiah being Cyrus?

You see it that way, also I know professors that are Christian and are concervative that agree with what I say on Satan in Revalation, that it is not refering to Satan nor to Genesis. And it was a concervative that got me thinking alot about what i know believe. That is becasue he Knows the Greek and Hebrew very well and he baes his conclusions on that.

What i see here is little understanding of where i am coming from, everyone here wants me to see it from their POV and yet few want to see it from mine. "Im leaning on my own understanding" "Satan has be doubting" etc.

Im the forum heretic everyone throughs tomatos at :sigh:

Isa 45:1 Thus says the LORD to Cyrus His anointed (mâshîyach or Messiah), Whom I have taken by the right hand, To subdue nations before him And to loose the loins of kings; To open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

Ahh, because i do not agree with you, this is my "own understanding" :sigh:

lordvoldemort · Aug 19, 2006

brother daniel said:
Beloved voldmort,

Your stance as a devils' advocate is not a wise one for a disciple of Jesus.

You are taking a one person position and presenting it as truth. So far no brother or sister in Christ in HIS Spirit agreed with you on your personal interpetation of Satan.

If you dont care, so be it.

We all have much to learn. You seem attached to your personal conclusions and defending them with many sunjective word.

I thank you for drawing my attention to the GOG TURKS
They are a peace of the puzzle.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Im not taking a devils advocate here, what i have said is what i believe, if no one wants to agree with me, then so be it, but i was never asking that to begin with. But as you said, from where i can from you learned something. Now is it possilbe then i could be right in my interpretation? Because I have no denied Satan, I know an evil entiy exist.

What i am denying is the traditional stance on "Satan" in revelation.

lordvoldemort · Aug 19, 2006

My stance and belief on this is no different from a stance or belief on the rapture.

The rapture does not appear in the bible and yet many believe it (because it is sociably acceptable).

Just because you do not beleive or see what i believe, does not make me wrong, nor does it make you right.

What i would like to see is more respect for someone you do not agree with. I have respected all of you, responded to all of your questions and objections and i like to say i respect what others say and beleive even if i dont agree with them. I hope i have come across that way.

I simpy would like the "You are wrong and here is why. . ." to stop and engage me in the points you disagree with. For example if you beleive that Satan is refering to Genesis, then quote the verse and state your reason, that is disagreeing with respect, without saying "you are wrong".

I disagree with many here, yet I do not recall myself ever saying so and so is wrong here is why or "you are under satan doubt" or whatever, so i request the same respect. My opinion is that if i lived 1000 years ago, all of you would string me up and quater me

.

brother daniel · Aug 19, 2006

lordvoldemort said:
Im not taking a devils advocate here, what i have said is what i believe, if no one wants to agree with me, then so be it, but i was never asking that to begin with. But as you said, from where i can from you learned something. Now is it possilbe then i could be right in my interpretation? Because I have no denied Satan, I know an evil entiy exist.

What i am denying is the traditional stance on "Satan" in revelation.

beloved vildmort,

My own stance is non traditional but is based on much scripture and history study.

The only problam I find in your stance is it lacks scriptual support.

There is a God and there is a Holy Spirit or comforter that reminds us of Jesus and his word,

When I am the only one that shares my point of view, when measured by the scriptures, then I forsake my solo view point

Our Lord does not have us guessing thats why we are sent out by twos.

You can be sure it is the same Satan that appeared unto God in Job and Jesus in Matthew, and powered the seven headed beast.

Remamber Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of this world.

Big deal, since it is all for Jesus at his taking.

Your focus on the Ottoman turks is excessive since they are a modern ethnic and language group in Anatolia. As a language and culture their home land is much further north and east.

Please dont try and twist the snake out of Satan.

Perhaps you would do well with another subject?

With love in Christ
brother daniel

lordvoldemort · Aug 19, 2006

I've used scripture and history to back up what i have said, so please dont tell me i have not done that.

I know history and scripture as well. (other wise i would not have attempted this subject.)

I used history to show the patter that i used to supprot my claim, i used the "dragon's" of revelations to show my POV, I used daniel description as well to support what i said.

So dont tell me i did not use scripture, i just used it in away that was not in "traditional" format.

I will recount what i said.

John says there are 8 empires, he said five have fallen, one it and one is yet to come, and a 8th will rise out of the seventh.

I showed that there are seven consecutive empires (no one wants to accept that, that is fine, but there are seven consecutive empires) Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Perisa, Macedonia (Ptolmey and Selecuid), Roman (Rome in West and Byzantine in East) and the Ottoman Empire (which defeated the Byzantine's).

I quoted from a Ottoman History book that 10 tribes united together to become the Ottoman Empire and that the Ottoman Empire is the only empire in history to have that characteristics.

I showed that there is a string of seven empires (see above).

Satan in Revelation in my opinion is not Satan that templed Jesus, as i said the context of the characteristics is the same as the other dragons mentioned in Revelation (It means that all dragons in revaltion is Satan or that all the dragons represent the same thing) they can not be either/or and that is what i am saying, i am keeping the context together, if there were differences then i would/could accept an alternate meaning, but in Hermenuetics you must use the book as the first primary source to explain itself, since the dragon (seven heads and ten horns) are mentioned at least 4 times all in the same description, then that tells me that they are the same thing.

If you can not find an answer in the "primary" book then you look at other books the author written, then the style of books that are similar (in this case Daniel, comes the closes) then you look at the NT, then you look at the OT, then you look at works written around the same time and then expand from there.

That is the rule to properly uses hermenuetics on the bible and that is how i came to my conclusion and that is a rule used by most biblical scholars.

I know one of the problems is that I have a different POV than most here, I hold a what some would call a "liberal" view of the bible. I hold to the JEDP Theory (by Richard E. Friedman). As well as other ideas, so i do not hold the same view as many here, and it is becoming quite clear that someone who is not insinc with what is believed here is not welcomed, so what is the point of having a forum, where everyone beleives the same thing and when someone comes in with a different POV is criticized or not repsected.

If I met you all 1000 years ago, most of you would draw and quater me. This is my last post for this website, cheers all. Sorry I could not enter into a conversation with anyone, which was my intention, but every time i do, i get bashed or criticized personally.

I will just stick with the Wiki and post historical accounts there. Feel free to see those, if you wish. I have done two, one on Solomon and Assyria.

Good luck.

Throw your party, the heretic left (that is my view of what i think many of you think of me here, I have no repsect for conservative Christians anymore, you all proved once again that a Christian is "conservative" and if one is not, then. . . :sigh:

) Honestly, if i did not have a strong faith in God and Jesus Christ, you all would have convinced me he does not exist.) He said loved your brothers and sisters as I have loved you, well apparently that is not what it means in conservative Christianity (love your fellow conservatives).

wmc1982 · Aug 19, 2006

I would poop in my pants if I saw something with 7 heads and 9 horns coming at me.

brother daniel · Aug 19, 2006

lordvoldemort said:
I've used scripture and history to back up what i have said, so please dont tell me i have not done that.

I know history and scripture as well. (other wise i would not have attempted this subject.)

I used history to show the patter that i used to supprot my claim, i used the "dragon's" of revelations to show my POV, I used daniel description as well to support what i said.

So dont tell me i did not use scripture, i just used it in away that was not in "traditional" format.

I will recount what i said.

John says there are 8 empires, he said five have fallen, one it and one is yet to come, and a 8th will rise out of the seventh.

I showed that there are seven consecutive empires (no one wants to accept that, that is fine, but there are seven consecutive empires) Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Perisa, Macedonia (Ptolmey and Selecuid), Roman (Rome in West and Byzantine in East) and the Ottoman Empire (which defeated the Byzantine's).

I quoted from a Ottoman History book that 10 tribes united together to become the Ottoman Empire and that the Ottoman Empire is the only empire in history to have that characteristics.

I showed that there is a string of seven empires (see above).

Satan in Revelation in my opinion is not Satan that templed Jesus, as i said the context of the characteristics is the same as the other dragons mentioned in Revelation (It means that all dragons in revaltion is Satan or that all the dragons represent the same thing) they can not be either/or and that is what i am saying, i am keeping the context together, if there were differences then i would/could accept an alternate meaning, but in Hermenuetics you must use the book as the first primary source to explain itself, since the dragon (seven heads and ten horns) are mentioned at least 4 times all in the same description, then that tells me that they are the same thing.

If you can not find an answer in the "primary" book then you look at other books the author written, then the style of books that are similar (in this case Daniel, comes the closes) then you look at the NT, then you look at the OT, then you look at works written around the same time and then expand from there.

That is the rule to properly uses hermenuetics on the bible and that is how i came to my conclusion and that is a rule used by most biblical scholars.

I know one of the problems is that I have a different POV than most here, I hold a what some would call a "liberal" view of the bible. I hold to the JEDP Theory (by Richard E. Friedman). As well as other ideas, so i do not hold the same view as many here, and it is becoming quite clear that someone who is not insinc with what is believed here is not welcomed, so what is the point of having a forum, where everyone beleives the same thing and when someone comes in with a different POV is criticized or not repsected.

If I met you all 1000 years ago, most of you would draw and quater me. This is my last post for this website, cheers all. Sorry I could not enter into a conversation with anyone, which was my intention, but every time i do, i get bashed or criticized personally.

I will just stick with the Wiki and post historical accounts there. Feel free to see those, if you wish. I have done two, one on Solomon and Assyria.

Good luck.

Throw your party, the heretic left (that is my view of what i think many of you think of me here, I have no repsect for conservative Christians anymore, you all proved once again that a Christian is "conservative" and if one is not, then. . .) Honestly, if i did not have a strong faith in God and Jesus Christ, you all would have convinced me he does not exist.) He said loved your brothers and sisters as I have loved you, well apparently that is not what it means in conservative Christianity (love your fellow conservatives).

Beloved voldmort,
There is no heretic party being thrown here.
You have twisted scripture to suit your own understanding.
In Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 and 7 God makes it clear who Satan is.
Job 1:6 shows the same Satan coming before God.
then there is Zachariah 3:1,2,3,

And of course, Matthew 4:10
Mark 1:13
Luke 4:8
John 13:27
2 Cor. 2:11
2 Cor. 11:15
2Thess. 2:9
etc.

All the same Satan. It makes no sense to wash it away.
With love in Christ
brother daniel

lordvoldemort · Aug 19, 2006

brother daniel said:
Beloved voldmort,
There is no heretic party being thrown here.
You have twisted scripture to suit your own understanding.
In Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 and 7 God makes it clear who Satan is.
Job 1:6 shows the same Satan coming before God.
then there is Zachariah 3:1,2,3,

And of course, Matthew 4:10
Mark 1:13
Luke 4:8
John 13:27
2 Cor. 2:11
2 Cor. 11:15
2Thess. 2:9
etc.

All the same Satan. It makes no sense to wash it away.
With love in Christ
brother daniel

You proved my point, from the get go i got no respect, no discussion on the merits, from the moment i opened this thread I was dead wrong in the eyse of everyone. No one discussed anything other than trying to show me "I'm wrong" which everyone assumed. Even though i responded to everyone's objection and question, so I wasted my time here. I responded to those verse by another person.

From your point of view im already wrong, so there is no point in continuing this, no matter what i say or what i present "Im Twisting scripture" now how am i to deal with that, i cant.

I can go on about you and your obsession with Sex and Jews and conspiracy, but I did not. What I disagreed with i stated and then left it alone, because i was dealing with you with what we could discuss, but you see me as "wrong" from the get go, no way i can argue or present anything because you already labled me as "twister of Scripture."

I will not be reading anymore reponses, so no one waste their time in responding to anything, I cant discuss anything "becasue I "twist scripture".

Revelation's "Satan" is not Satan!

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