Tim LaHaye´s New Book

Defender of the Faith 777 · Jul 3, 2002

Have you read THE RAPTURE?

It´s an apologetics book directed towards post-trib and mid-trib.

Just want to see what your opinions would be.

rainbow promise · Jul 14, 2002

These books to me are twisted. They take scripture out of context and twist them to fit the delusionary work of the books. These books will be the cause of many lost souls.

Many are so taken with these books that they are blind to truth.

Patmosman_sga · Jul 14, 2002

Originally posted by rainbow promise
These books to me are twisted. They take scripture out of context and twist them to fit the delusionary work of the books. These books will be the cause of many lost souls.

Many are so taken with these books that they are blind to truth.

Sad, but true.

lisa03wilson · Jul 16, 2002

It´s an apologetics book directed towards post-trib and mid-trib

I think he'd be making a better use of his time by writing books directed to people who don't ALREADY believe in Jesus.

Defender of the Faith 777 · Jul 16, 2002

Why are y'all post-trib? The book has many good points. Great points actually. I was a postribber for a very short time, just cause I thought I was so smart with the parable in Matthew 13, I think, and pretty much, that's it. But the fact that His bride, the church, is destined for trials but not wrath is very true. What's the point of the Tribulation? And exactly why would Christians go through it if we already believe? We don't need a big series of prophecies to come true.

If we are raptured, this will be no little issue. MANY will believe as a result. And I'm thinking MANY. There will be a new generation of Christians.

Patmosman_sga · Jul 16, 2002

I am neither pre-, mid- nor post-trib. All of these "rapture" views are based on an unbiblical dualism which sees "heaven" and "earth" as two separate places separated, apparently, by thousands of miles. The Bible does not speak of "heaven" and "earth" as two separate places, but as two different dimensions of the whole reality of the created order. In the beginning, God declared all of his creation, "heaven" and "earth" alike, "good." Therefore, it is erroneous to view "earth" (the physical realm) as inherently "bad" and "heaven" (the spiritual realm) as inherently good. "The whole creation," Paul writes, is destined to be "set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (Romans 8:18-25). In God's new creation, which those "in Christ" are already experiencing (2 Corinthians 5:17), "heaven" and "earth" will be fully integrated, fulfilling the prayer of every believer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Jesus himself will be personally present in the midst of the true Israel, God's chosen people, redeemed out of every nation, tribe, people and tongue.

To the first century Jew, the idea of being physically removed from the planet would have been totally foreign. We cannot import a worldview which is the product of mid-to-late 19th century Western European rationalism into our interpretation of 1st century Near Eastern apocalyptic literature. Instead, we must seek to understand how the words of Jesus (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), Paul (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) and John (Revelation) would have been received by their original audiences.

In particular, we must pay careful attention to the context of "one will be taken, the other left" in light of Jewish remnant theology. It would be much better to be "left" than to be "taken." To be "taken" was to be numbered among those who, as in the days of Noah, continued about their daily routine in complete ignorance of the judgment which was about to befall them. To be "left" was to be numbered among the "remnant," the true Israel, the firstfruits of God's new creation.

Paul must be understood within the wider context of all his writings, particularly Romans 8:12-25, 1 Corinthians 15:12-57, Philippians 2:5-11 and Ephesians 4:1-16. Throughout his epistles, and his discourses in Acts, Paul is utterly consistent. His hope is firmly grounded in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Therefore, the hope he points to in 1 Thessalonians, for example, does not concern being yanked off the planet if we are fortunate enough to be "alive" when Christ returns. Rather, it is the hope of resurrection, being raised out of death and into new life in and through Jesus Christ, both now and at the full consummation of the kingdom of God.

Revelation is the liturgy of the heavenly worship of the saints, Apostles, martyrs, angels and archangels which we on earth also participate in every "Lord's Day." In other words, if you want to see prophecy fulfilled before your very eyes, be sure to go to church this Sunday. Jesus will be there, and all his holy ones with him. There you will be "caught up" to "meet him," and there you will dine with him at his table. Worship is the defining act of God's true Israel, his New Covenant people, the Church. In worship, we are in touch with the "end" toward which we are moving.

As Scott Hahn has said, "The Church has always taught that the end is near--as near as your local parish church. And it's something you should be running to, not from."

Jenna · Jul 16, 2002

Well, I guess that I am the odd ball out then, because I really like the book series. I'm on the 6th book right now. I don't believe in the rapture in the sense that alot of people do, but Mr. LaHaye doesn't preach that his fiction series is the way that things are. Fiction is fiction.

Anywho, I can't think down on anything that actually had my pagan father looking for answers about God and actually talking to me about Christianity. To someone who feels that they know the Bible better, the series may just seem like hogwash. It does, however, pose alot of questions for those who are not Christian and at least gives believers a place to start, something to talk about that doesn't seem like a sermon to otherwise defensive people.

Anything that causes my mother (lapsed Christian), father(wiccan), and sister (self-centered) to actually pick up the Bible to find out what is really up, well....I'm for it.

Patmosman_sga · Jul 16, 2002

Apocalyptic tales of judgment and wrath are supposed to serve precisely that purpose with regard to the unbelievers. The problem with "rapture" theology, however, is that it tends to degenerate into a message of escape from the world, rather than of engaging the world with the Gospel of Christ.

Jenna · Jul 16, 2002

*shrugs* I've haven't gotten into all of that, so I'm sure that you have witnessed more than I have on the matter. In all honesty, I started reading the books because my mom said they were intriguing. She picked one up by "accident" and really ended up liking the action and suspence as well as the way that they portray a Christian's connection with God.

As far as delving into rapture theology and such, I don't even go there. In all honesty, I don't have the slightest preoccupation with any of it, and haven't even read the book of revelation since I was about 10 years old. It doesn't matter to me one way or another whether people are brought up to heaven before or after any tribulation or how any of the end days will turn out. I would much rather expend my energy with the real message of salvation for those who would like to accept it.

I guess it's just not worth it to me, as I feel that no matter how or when I die or when Jesus comes again, I'll be on my way to the best place I could ever imagine. Instead of trying to put my finger on who is the anti-christ or what symbolism means what, I'm gonna just see how many people I can take with me when I go.

postrib · Jul 16, 2002

...His bride, the church, is destined for trials but not wrath...

Amen. Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), not one of which is poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation.

...What's the point of the Tribulation? And exactly why would Christians go through it if we already believe?...

I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end. I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

...If we are raptured, this will be no little issue. MANY will believe as a result...

Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

...There will be a new generation of Christians...

In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" How could that be when being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" are mutually exclusive?

"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

...the idea of being physically removed from the planet...

Note that no verse says the rapture takes us any higher than the clouds.

...be sure to go to church this Sunday. Jesus will be there, and all his holy ones with him. There you will be "caught up" to "meet him,"...

I believe our catching up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air as he is descending at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) will be as literal as Jesus' ascension into a cloud (Acts 1:9), for Jesus must come back from heaven (Acts 3:20-21) just as literally as he left (Acts 1:9-11). He literally went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven. He will literally return from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives: "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4).

Jesus' 2nd coming will be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), will be seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7), will bring the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Defender of the Faith 777 · Jul 17, 2002

Question: Revelation starts off the first three chapters with nothing BUT the church. How do you account for Christ's bride being absent during the time of His wrath?

How do you interpret 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:4-9 and etc? Not to mention the parable where one is taken while the other is left working in the field.

I'll respond to both of your posts at the same time once you answer this.

psst. That was kinda long lol. I don't really have the attention span for it all. A little over my head. I'll focus on both though. TTYL Jesus lvoes you!

Susan · Jul 17, 2002

Jenna you aren't alone! I'm pre-trib, and I'm a huge fan of the books.
Another thing: where you stand on eschatology is NOT a condition of salvation. Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone, not by an eschatolgy (which is by definition a work.)
There will be pretribs, midtribs, posttribs, amills, postmills, and even some partial preterists in Heaven. There will also be all of these who not in Heaven because they placed their faith in their own works rather than Christ's finished work.

So peace, all, and let us focus on evangelism rather than proper eschatology.

Susan · Jul 17, 2002

Hey Defender I agree with you! Nice to see you back here ! :wave:

postrib · Jul 17, 2002

...How do you account for Christ's bride being absent...

Note that the bride isn't absent from the tribulation, for there are no Christians outside of the bride; all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32). We Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost, saved in no different way than Christians who have died or will die before the tribulation. Many of us will be slain for the word of God and cry out to the Lord (Revelation 6:9-10); we will have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14); we will have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17) and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12) and will be in the Lord (Revelation 14:13); if we die, we will enter into heaven itself (Revelation 15:2); some of us will be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and we will all live and reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4).

...during the time of His wrath?

How do you interpret 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:4-9...

Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), not one of which is poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation.

...one is taken while the other is left...

Note that Matthew 24:37-44 refers to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:29-31. There's no 3rd coming of Christ. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

I believe the ones "taken" at the 2nd coming are unbelievers who are killed, just as Noahs flood "took" evil men away (Matthew 24:39-40). The carcasses of the ones "taken" are eaten by eagles and other birds (Luke 17:36-37, Job 39:30, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21).

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

The ones "gathered together" at Christ's 2nd coming are his elect (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). So I believe Christians won't be the ones "taken" or the ones "left," but the ones "gathered together."

...let us focus on evangelism rather than proper eschatology...

Note that these aren't opposed to each other. I believe preaching the rapture's timing is important because Jesus said it's possible for those who get saved to subsequently "be offended" by tribulation and "fall away":

"The same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:9-12).

"They, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation [peirasmos] fall away" (Luke 8:13). "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try [peirasmos] you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

rollinTHUNDER · Jul 17, 2002

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
Question: Revelation starts off the first three chapters with nothing BUT the church. How do you account for Christ's bride being absent during the time of His wrath?

How do you interpret 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 5:4-9 and etc? Not to mention the parable where one is taken while the other is left working in the field.

Hello Defender of the Faith,

This is an excellent question. I hope to be posting another new thread that will attempt to answer this question. Be patient though, because I have already put a lot of study time into it and it's probably over half way done, but I also need a break from it. I hope to have it up by next week, God willing.

rookie · Jul 19, 2002

I'm with Jenna and Susan. I have read every single one and love them. But I look at it as a good suspense novel. There are some things in the stories make me wonder if something isn't in the right order, (and an example doesn't come to mind at the moment). But otherwise, I enjoy reading them.

rookie

Defender of the Faith 777 · Jul 22, 2002

That's absolutely preposterous. You just gave me, from what I have seen, a bunch of verses that could go either way and a bunch of typing.

Also, you mention that the believers will be given special immunity. Pardon, other than the seal with the locusts, which doesn't even have to refer to believers, could you offer support for that.

The absence of the church in chapters 4-18 fascinates me. Also, chapter 18 is about Christ coming down, with the church to establish the New Jerusalem. I think it's New Jerusalem or something. lol, goes to show you my ignorance in Revelation. All of a sudden, it's the church again, conveniently the theme yet again of Revelation, right after the Tribulation.

The rapture has one big intention: conversion. When people see hundreds of millions of people just disappear, there'll be hardly any way out of it. They'll see the truth. There will be a new generation of believers, MUCH MUCH more than if we were down here too. That would speak for itself dramatically. BTW, the earliest manuscript with the rapture dates back to the old "Pseudo-Ephram" in the 4th century. Pseudo means ghost, we have a discovery site, but no identified author, just FYI if you were wondering whattup with the name or something.

postrib · Jul 23, 2002

...you mention that the believers will be given special immunity...

I mentioned that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation.

...the seal with the locusts...

I believe only those of us Christians who will receive a particular seal of God in our forehead will be protected from the locusts: "It was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Revelation 9:4). I believe this refers back to Revelation 7: "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads" (Revelation 7:3).

I believe it's possible that those of us Christians who are not one of the 144,000 could suffer under the locusts (just as we will suffer in many other ways during the tribulation, none of which ways will be the wrath of God) as I believe only the 144,000 will receive the particular seal referred to in Revelation 7: "I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel" (Revelation 7:4). I believe there will be more than 144,000 of us Christians on the earth at that time. Note that later when the 144,000 are already before the throne in heaven (Revelation 14:1-3), there are other of us Christians still suffering and dying on the earth under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13).

...doesn't even have to refer to believers...

Note that the 144,000 are Christians who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

...The absence of the church in chapters 4-18...

I'm glad you agree that the 24 elders in chapters 4-5 aren't the church.

But we find Christians referred to throughout chapters 6-18 (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4).

...chapter 18 is about Christ coming down, with the church...

Do you mean chapter 19? At the rapture, most of the church will be returning "with" Christ from the 3rd heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14), as most of it will have died before or during the tribulation.

...The rapture has one big intention: conversion...

What verse are you thinking of here?

Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

...There will be a new generation of believers...

Appointed to wrath?

...the earliest manuscript with the rapture dates back to the old "Pseudo-Ephram" in the 4th century. Pseudo means ghost...

Doesn't pseudo mean false? Isn't that a forgery?

Kyle · Jul 23, 2002

1 Thes. 5 says Christ will come like a thief in the night.  You can never plan for a thief.  Thiefs strike when least expected.  If a purse snatcher could not steal a purse after repeated attempts because he always he walked around with a t-shirt that said "I will steal your purse at 6pm on Thurday, Suzie Purscarrier" for example, then he would not be a thief, he'd be a dummy.

When the anti-christ signs the peace treaty, the 7 year tribulation will begin(Daniel 9:7).  Follow?

Great.

So, once the peace treaty is signed, anyone that isn't under delusion [ "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie" 1 Thess 2:11] will know that Christ will return at the end of 7 years.  So how could Christ be coming like a thief, if Believers knew the exact day He was coming?

 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat 24:42).

God intended for us to see the big picture, and that is the whole Truth of His Word, and nothing but the Truth.  Like Paul said, "don't believe me, get in the Scriptures to understand it for yourself daily" (Acts 7:11).

 

http://www.jiloa.org

Jesus Is Lord Of All (JILOA)

isshinwhat · Jul 23, 2002

BTW, the earliest manuscript with the rapture dates back to the old "Pseudo-Ephram" in the 4th century.

Have you ever read Ephraem the Syrian, whom the author of the Pseudo-Ephraem works styled his after? They are beautiful. Ephraem had a real gift for song and poetry, which is how he wrote a majority of the works we have by him today. Here is the quote Defender spoke of.

For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

At first glance this looks like he is promoting a pre-trib rapture, but taken in context, we see what was meant by the author. Take this passage from passage 4.

Whenever therefore the earth is agitated by the nations, people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks, by caves and caverns of the earth, by graves and memorials of the dead, and there, as they waste away gradually by fear, they draw breath, because there is not any place at all to flee, but there will be concession and intolerable pressure. And those who are in the east will flee to the west, and moreover, those who are in the west shall flee to the east, and there is not a safer place anywhere, because the world shall be overwhelmed by worthless nations, whose aspect appears to be of wild animals more than that of men. Because those very much horrible nations, most profane and most defiled, who do not spare lives, and shall destroy the living from the dead, shall consume the dead, they eat dead flesh, they drink the blood of beasts, they pollute the world, contaminate all things, and the one who is able to resist them is not there. In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them.

This sounds like the Christians are left in the trib to me.

And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come!

With this passage in mind, then, the following bolded passage becomes a warning, a "watch out, you really don't want to be here through this" kind of thing, rather than a pre-trib doctrinal statement. The tribulation being spoken of would then be the final outpouring of wrath on the unbelievers after the Second Coming, and the gathering is the gathering spoken of in the last sentence of the above passage.

See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

God Bless,

Neal

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