Brennan Manning -- Erwin McManus

JJB said:

Who are these men?

Anyone here familiar with either of their teachings?

I was at an event where both of these men were speaking.

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Brennan Manning is one of my foremost heroes.
He was/is a Cathoic Priest. His teaching is completely about the grace of God.

I read Brennan Manning's book the Ragamuffin Gospel and liked it. I know Rich Mullins was also very moved by his preaching although he usually did not like preaching. It is not very deep theological stuff but it serves a purpose of reminding all that we are saved by God's grace.

Erwin McMannus is the pastor of Mosaic church, a multicultural, multicongregational congregation in the LA area...

http://www.mosaic.org/

I read one of Manning's books, I forget the exact title, Abba's Love maybe?

Anyway, it did speak to me and where I was at that point in my life. It'd probably still speak to me even now if I bothered to pick it up again. It's a book I'd definitely recommend though (you know, if I knew the correct name )

Edit: I think the title may be Abba's Child, now that I think about it, if anyone is interested.

JJB said:

THanks UponThisRock for responding.

Unfortunately what I've been reading is less than hopeful to me.

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Well, I don't know much about the individual Brennan Manning. Really not even enough to call him a "hero", but his writing of The Ragamuffin Gospel, to me, is very heroic.

JJB said:

Thanks for responding peeps. I may have to read one of manning's books for myself to see. But the event I was at, he was talking from the stage and sounded like a new age kinda guy. That's why I'm asking.

For any of you that have responded so far: What other books do you read? Do you read only "current" authors?

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Well, a few months ago I read A Generous Orthodoxy by Brian D. McLaren. I absolutely loved the book and he referred to Manning's The Ragamuffin Gospel several times so I got it. I then got Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller simply because Brian McLaren reccommended it. And I just finished reading McLaren's newest book The Secret Message of Jesus (it's not at all Gnostic even though the title sort of sounds like it). I have absolutely loved those 4 books and they have all greatly inspired me. Now, they are all modern, but I haven't read them because they are modern because I love the oldies too.
I'm very interested in new emergent authors and theologians such as Brian McLaren, Rob Bell, and Dallas Willard.

So, in a nut shell, the modern things are sort of my favorite, but the old things are their foundation.

JJB said:

Hi Adam,

Have you ever compared what the emergent fellas say compared to what is considered classic orthodox christianity? That could be an interesting activity.

Say, compare a sermon by Spurgeon to a sermon by McLaren. See where they agree and where they do not...something like that.

Have you ever heard a sermon by the guy in Seattle, the pastor of Mars Hill -- let me think of his name -- Mark Driscoll? He's a young guy who sounds very interesting. Quite orthodox on issues that demand orthodoxy. I'm sure most of the emergent leaders have dissed him, but I find him quite compelling, surprisingly.

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Pastor of Mars Hill? I haven't heard of the Mars Hill in Seattle, only the Mars Hill in Grand Rapids, which is where Rob Bell is pastor. Interesting that these two men who seem to be quite different (though I don't know that they are for sure) pastor churches of the same name. Hmmmm, well, anways. Yes, that would be a very interesting search indeed--of comparing the teaching of classic religious leaders to that of leaders of emergent. Sounds like a must do to me.
I think that I would see lots of difference, but upon looking closely wouldn't see as many differences as I would different points of emphasis.

JJB said:

That's funny. I didn't know there was more than one Mars Hill church. I guess it shouldn't be that surprising, tho, as that's a place mentioned in Acts.

http://lite.marshillchurch.org/site/downloads/sermons/theological_topics/culture/

There is a link to Mark Driscoll's sermons...I was trying to find the one i listened to recently. It was really top-notch.

Anyway, I am enjoying our pleasant conversation in the midst of GT which is usually full of postulating and positioning (and I know because I've done my own good share of it). Thanks Adam!

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Yes, I read some of his blog, his teachings don't seem to be too different from many Emergent leader, even though he himself is opposed to them.
Yes, I've enjoyed this also, very much. A rarity for GT.

JJB said:

Thanks for responding peeps. I may have to read one of manning's books for myself to see. But the event I was at, he was talking from the stage and sounded like a new age kinda guy. That's why I'm asking.?

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I would describe Manning as mystical. (in a good way) Read Ragamuffin Gospel if you read only one of his books.

JJB said:

For any of you that have responded so far: What other books do you read? Do you read only "current" authors?

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I read a lot of the church fathers. Read the Theological Orations by Gregory of Nazianzus or On the Incarantion by Athanasius.

Most current authors I read tend to be historical theologians about the Church fathers. Behr, McGuckin to name two.

I am about to read Girl Meets God: On the Path to a Spiritual Life. It has been highly recommended by a friend of mine.

Here is a synopsis I found on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1565123093/sr=8-8/qid=1155315521/ref=sr_1_8/103-7203346-4381457?ie=UTF8

From Publishers Weekly
Raised by a lapsed Baptist mother and secular Jewish father, Winner feels a drive toward God as powerful as her drives toward books and boys. Twice she has attempted to read her way into religion to Orthodox Judaism her freshman year at Columbia, and then four years later at Cambridge to Anglican Christianity. Twice she has discovered that a religion's actual practitioners may not measure up to its theoretical proponents. (Invariably the boyfriends or their mothers disappoint.) It is easier to say what this book is not than what it is. It is not a conversion memoir: Winner's movement in and out of religious frames, but does not tell, her tale. It is not a defense of either faith (there is something here to offend every reader); and Winner, a doctoral candidate in the history of religion, is in her 20s young for autobiography. Because most chapters, though loosely related to the Christian church year, could stand alone, it resembles a collection of essays; but the ensemble is far too unified to deserve that label. Clearly it is memoir, literary and spiritual, sharing Anne Lamott's self-deprecating intensity and Stephen J. Dubner's passion for authenticity. Though Winner does not often scrutinize her motives, she reveals herself through abundant, concrete and often funny descriptions of her life, inner and outer. Winner's record of her own experience so far is a page-turning debut by a young writer worth watching.
Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc.

Hi JJB

I attend an ELCA parish that is part of a redevelopment strategy within the synod and our worship is emergent. I have read some Brian McLaren, Dallas Willard, and a couple of other books about children and youth ministry in the postmodern world...

The theology is completely orthodox, at least McLarens, but I'm unsure about the application. We have been having an emergent service for about 3 years now and it keeps getting wierder and more people keep leaving the Church. I'm more of a traditional high Church kind of person myself and it's been driving me nuts lately the stuff that's been going on in worship.

IRT Brennan Manning, I have read the Ragamuffin Gospel and Abba's Child and I wouldn't consider him emergent, per se, but I do like his writings... I consider them devotional...

JJB said:

Welcome to the discussion Stumpjumper.

I'm sorry to hear about your church. Have you talked to your pastor?

What does an emergent service look like? Darkened lights, candles, that kind of stuff?

Yeah...postmodernism.

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Thank you.

The service is contemporary in regards to the hymns (if you can call them hymns) but interspersed with some more traditional practices. We have the Lord's Supper every week (actually at every service or even meeting) by intinction which is actually rare for Lutheran Churches as they usually only have communion on the first and third Sundays of the week.

Our Liturgy diverges from the normal Lutheran Liturgical cycle and we have interactive Sermons... Sometimes we have prayer beads; sometimes we do stations of the Cross, sometimes we meditate.

Sometimes I like it and really feel closer to God and God's presence, sometimes I'm clueless....But, I have certainly grown in my faith...

JJB said:

Stumpjumper,

Is your faith feelings-oriented?

Would you endorse these emergent teachers like Bell, Manning, McManus, Kimbal, et al.? I'm not sure I understand your position on them. Just looking for clarification.

After what I heard from Manning and McManus, I am not so sure they are preaching the Christ of the bible. But I've only heard them that one time.....

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I would not consider Brennan Manning emergent. He is a Catholic Priest and, although he is from the liberal spectrum with the Catholic Church, I don't see a great connection between him and some of the emergent positions...

I have no idea about McManus or Kimbal but I am familiar with McLaren who self-identifies as emergent. If you are interested, I would read A Generous Orthodoxy by McLaren as it's a good overview of the thought in a certain section of that field...

I would say that I have a rather large experiential foundation for my faith but I certainly believe correct beliefs are important as well. Truth does not contradict truth, IMO...