U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

New hope,
appreciate your lengthy response, but sorry not convinced.

came upon all men simply means offered to "all men". Sinners simply mean sinners -- not "some sinners". Much more simply means much more in every sense, not just one sense.

Anyway, heard all the same-old arguments b4 (twisting "all" to mean "some"), so wont bother with it anymore.

Originally posted by humblejoe

Yes, but you say it is the deciding factor in salvation. If any word, thought, action, etc. that you commit can give or open the doors to salvation to you, then it is you that are doing the saving and effecting of your salvation. Then Christ's sacrifice becomes arbitrary at best.
Argh... I just don't think I have the heart to go over the "gift argument" again.

Click to expand...

No, I am not saying it is the deciding factor in salvation. Salvation is already provided for, that's all there is to it. We cannot do anything to add to it. The manner in which I execute free will is indeed the deciding factor in whether I accept the gift of salvation, but that's the way God designed it. God created free will. It is a good thing.

My free will is hardly a part of God's salvation work. Did I feel the whips strike my back? Did I hang on a cross suffering for hours? Did I die on that cross? Did I rise from the grave? That is the work of God's salvation, and it was all done by Christ, once and for all. For all sinners.

What part of all that did I have a hand in? None. Then how can you say that my simple decision to accept Christ means I had anything to do with teh work of salvation?

Arbitrary at best? Hardly. Without Christ dying on the cross for mys sins, I don't even have a chance of being saved. That's hardly arbitrary.

And about the argument against my "gift" scenario, nothing was said that makes me feel any different about it, so that's why I mentioned it again.

 

 

Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore
To be chosen by God when others are not seems pretty special, I'd say.

Click to expand...

I didn't say it wasn't a special thing to be chosen.  It, God's love, is the most special thing we could ever experience.  There is nothing like God's love.  What I said was there was nothing special, about the individual, that God used as the basis for choosing to save that individual.

Why are some chosen and some not?

Click to expand...

As I'm not God I can only speculate.  I believe that the only way we can truly understand something to it's fullest extent is to see the contrast to it.  The only way we can truly understand, and appreciate, God's love and mercy in our lives is to see His wrath poured out on the lives of those who live contrary to His Word.  You can only appreciate and recognize what righteousness is because there is unrighteousness.  There must be contrasts in life to see the fullness of God's love.

What is the basis of taht decision?

Click to expand...

I can only offer as an answer what the Bible says:

"according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:5)

No, we do not claim there was something about us that set us apart.

Click to expand...

Okay.  Maybe I've misunderstood.  Why are you saved?

In fact, we claim that we are not set apart until we become Christians.

Click to expand...

So how did you become a Christian?

Strict predestinists are the ones who think they are set apart to be saved, when others are not.

Click to expand...

No.  Predestinists understand that a person is set apart when they are saved.  We just don't claim to have had anything to do with the process, as you claim.  You see salvation and sanctification are different.  We can not participate in the process of being sanctified until we are saved from our totally unresponsive and fallen nature, by God.

By saying that, you are indeed in effect saying that you must be special in God's eyes;

Click to expand...

Incorrect and unsupported.

otherwise why would he have chosen you and not others?

Click to expand...

See above. 

And gee whiz, how many times do we have to tell you that by accepting God's gift, that is in no way or fashion "meriting" our salvation? We still didn't earn it. If God said "You worked so hard, so I'm gonna save you", then that would be earning it.

Someone offers you a gift because they love you. You accept it. Now, did you earn that gift? No. Did you "merit" that gift? No.

By the same token, you have the free will to accept. If you accept, good. If not, the giver isn't to blame. The recipient is to blame.

Click to expand...

Please tell me, S2S, what you think happened to the nature of mankind after the Fall.  Do you believe that mankind was totally depraved?  Do you believe they could do anything righteous?  Do you believe they sought after God?  Do you believe they could do anything to please God?

You say God has this wonderful gift and all you have to do is "accept it."  That sounds wonderful, except one thing.  How is it that you think a spiritually DEAD and UNRESPONSIVE being can respond and accept anything?

Now, if you don't believe that man was totally depraved and helpless, even though the Bible makes that very clear then this is moot issue.  Most mainstream Christians believe in the total depravity of man after the Fall.  There are, however, two camps with regard to when, and to what extent, God's grace is granted to them.  Look at this post by Blackhawk, the author of this series of threads, of which this thread is the second.

Romans 5:6
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The meaning of "still without strength" is made even clearer when read from the Amplified Bible:

Romans 5:6
While we were yet in weakness [powerless to help ourselves], at the fitting time Christ died for (in behalf of) the ungodly.

Where do you stand on the issue of total regeneration vs. previent grace?  An answer to that might go a long way to helping me understand what you're saying.

Thanks again.  I am very much enjoying this discussion with you.

Take care and God bless.

Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore
No, I am not saying it is the deciding factor in salvation. Salvation is already provided for, that's all there is to it. We cannot do anything to add to it. The manner in which I execute free will is indeed the deciding factor in whether I accept the gift of salvation, but that's the way God designed it. God created free will. It is a good thing.

My free will is hardly a part of God's salvation work. Did I feel the whips strike my back? Did I hang on a cross suffering for hours? Did I die on that cross? Did I rise from the grave? That is the work of God's salvation, and it was all done by Christ, once and for all. For all sinners.

What part of all that did I have a hand in? None. Then how can you say that my simple decision to accept Christ means I had anything to do with teh work of salvation?

Click to expand...

I hope you can clear up my confusion here.  First you say that all Jesus' death on the cross did was create the opportunity for you to be saved.  Christ dying on the Cross gave you the "chance of being saved" but His action did not actually make your salvation a gaurantee.  Right?  His action did not actually physically or spiritually change you.  That is what you are saying, right?  You didn't "feel the whips strike your back."  You didn't "hang on a cross suffering for hours."  You didn't "die on that cross or rise from the grave."  But all that those amazing things accomplished was to give you a "chance" at salvation.

So here's the reality of your viewpoint: Jesus, God Himself, is murdered and to "activate" your salvation YOU HAD TO ACCEPT.  Right?  His death wasn't enough.  He needed YOU to do something to make His death and resurrection manifest in YOUR life.  YOU had to "accept" His free gift for it to change anything in your life.  YOU accepted it, so now you are saved.  Is all that right?  His death didn't actually save you.  What saved you was YOUR DECISION TO ACCEPT God's "free gift."

Here's the reality of my viewpoint: I inherited a fallen nature that neither sought after God, nor desired to be with Him.  I was unresponsive to His obvious magnificence.  I was His enemy and I was fine with that.  I could not reconcile (get back in His good graces) myself to Him, nor did I desire to.  One day God decided, FOR THE GLORY OF HIS SON, to resurrect my heart and live for Him.  I didn't participate in it.  I didn't even know He was doing it.  Then, one day, I was able to see that God is righteous and I desired to live according to His Word.  I had still done nothing.  I had not said a prayer.  I had not been baptized.  Nothing.  However, I now felt that GOD HAD SAVED ME even when I was helpless to save myself.

Which one of those sounds more glorifying to God?  Which of those sounds like a God who will ensure that His children will be conformed to the image of His Son?  Which of those sounds like a God who is helpless to ensure His Will is done?

Without Christ dying on the cross for mys sins, I don't even have a chance of being saved.

Click to expand...

Is that what His death did for you?  Gave you a chance?

Take care and God bless.

Originally posted by NewHope


YOU had to "accept" His free gift for it to change anything in your life.  YOU accepted it, so now you are saved.  Is all that right?  His death didn't actually save you.  What saved you was YOUR DECISION TO ACCEPT God's "free gift."
Here's the reality of my viewpoint: I inherited a fallen nature that neither sought after God, nor desired to be with Him.  I was unresponsive to His obvious magnificence.  I was His enemy and I was fine with that.  I could not reconcile (get back in His good graces) myself to Him, nor did I desire to.  One day God decided, FOR THE GLORY OF HIS SON, to resurrect my heart and live for Him.  I didn't participate in it.  I didn't even know He was doing it.  Then, one day, I was able to see that God is righteous and I desired to live according to His Word.  I had still done nothing.  I had not said a prayer.  I had not been baptized.  Nothing.  However, I now felt that GOD HAD SAVED ME even when I was helpless to save myself.


Which one of those sounds more glorifying to God?  Which of those sounds like a God who will ensure that His children will be conformed to the image of His Son?  Which of those sounds like a God who is helpless to ensure His Will is done?
Is that what His death did for you?  Gave you a chance?
Take care and God bless.

Click to expand...

No, it was not my decision to accept salvation that saved me, it was his death on the cross that saved me. My decision just, as you say, rightly, "activates it in my life".

Here is a dialogue between me and God that might help explain it a little better:

God: Look, Mike, I've already died for you so that you might live eternally. You don't have to give me any money for it. You don't even have to "sign on the dotted line". I'm gonna hand it to you now.

Mike: Okay, I'll take it. Now, how much does it cost?

God: I'm telling you, it costs nothing.

Mike: Nothing? Not even a penny?

God: Not one red cent.

Mike: Okay then, I'll clean your yard and work it off for ya.

God: No you won't, because it's free. But I won't force you take it. It's up to you, if you want it. Just reach out.

Mike: That is strange. I think I'll pass for now, because I don't really believe that anything's free. Everything has a price. See ya later, God.

(3 months later)

Mike: Hey God, you there?

God: Yes.

Mike: Hey God, ever since you offered me that free gift, I've felt something strange, and am convicted of my sin, as if something is telling me I should've accepted your offer.

God: That's the Holy Spirit. I send him out to bring people to me.

Mike: Well, is it too late to change my mind?

God: No, it's not. here, it's totally free.

Mike: Wow, God, thanks a million. I'll take it!

And the gift is given.

Now, where in all that did Mike do anything to add to his salvation? Christ had already done the work. Mike just accepted it. That is not a work. That is simply accepting.

Also, just because someone doesn't accept God's gift doesn't mean that God is "helpless to ensure His Will is done". His death on the cross provided salvation. That is the victory. God gave us free will specifically because he wants us to be free to choose him. he knew when he planned it that way that some would not choose him. So, there is no failure there. It would be a failure if he has said "Christ will die on the cross and I will force certain people to accept Him" and then some of those certain people didn't accept him. But since he gives us a choice and presents the options to us, he cannot be blamed if we choose the worng thing.

 

Dear Slavenomore,

you said, [i[
quote:
Originally posted by mjwhite
Cmon
it was said..

WHY didn't you harden your heart and they did? Let me hear your boast.


mjwhite, to be honest with you, I am tired of seeing you accusing me and other brethern of boasting. You need to learn how to get your point across without insulting people. Since we've begun this discussion, I and others have been accused and ridiculed by you, and it's getting old.

The real funny thing is that you accuse us of "boasting" because we say that we choose to accept Christ. But according to you, God chose you and not some others. he favored you over them. Therfore, you are more special in God's sight than others. Now, how how can you claim that is not boasting, but at the same time say that when Andrew and Ben and I claim that we choose to accept Christ, taht is boasting?


What is insulting by asking you where your boast is? I boast too. i boast that salvation is wholly due to God. He saved me. Others he didn't save but damned to hell. He saved me with the emphasis on God and what He did and no emphasis on my part at all.

But didn't I have a part? Yes but my part was also totally due to God. You see from the heart the mouth speaks according to our Lord. God revealed in my heart the truth of His love as demonstrated by the cross. My confession of Him then is an aknowledgemnt of what in my heart i know is truth.

Those whose hearts have not had the same revelation from God cannot believe from their hearts nor then truthfully confess it with their mouths. They think the gospel foolishness [1st Cor. 1:18]. So my work of confessing it [or recieving it] is the fruit of His revelation to my heart. I beleive because I have a reason to believe. Those in hell are there because they sinned and knew it was wrong to do those things.

His mercy is mostly revealed by the cross. But that alone is ineffectual if He does not also revels it as truth to my heart. So that revelation is a fruit of His suffering for those he loves.

So when I ask you of WHY you are saved, who do you boast on? God or yourself? You boast on yourself for you say "I" as in "I recieved Him". You do not bring ALL the glory to God and say, "Why? but because God saved me!" Because if pressed, [as in why He doesnt save all], you will revert back to YOU by saying because of "I" [I recieved Him, they did not]. Now while that is true, it doesnt explain why you recieved Him and they did not, so it doesn't explain WHY at all. It merely explains part of the HOW.

So what are the reasons YOU recieved Him and they did not?

Dear All,

I am a firm believer in Total Depravity. In other words I believe that I was a slave to sin. I believe that even if I had a "choice" in my salvation then I would still choose sin because I am so evil. I believe that God is Almighty and He is all knowing. I just don't think that Ephesians 1 can be argued against. The Bible is very clear when it says:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He CHOSE us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."
Ephesians 1:3-4

Amen! We have been chosen! I believe that salvation occured 2000 years ago on a cross. Jesus's death and His resurrection saved me. God knew that I would be one of His own before the very foundations of the earth. He knew because He chose me.

We can talk all day about how we are saved. It is very important and wise to! It gets us to study our Bibles and seek God's face. But I think that we should also remember that "being saved" is a process. Paul even said that he was being saved. I post this not only as a public display of my beliefs and my joys, but as an encouragement as well. No matter how we are saved, don't forget WE'RE SAVED! I think that we can all say that sometimes we need to place down our theology disputes and rejoice in the grace that is Christ Jesus.
Thanking God for His Unconditional Election,
Calvinist

Interesting. I always come away from these types of discussions convinced that they are harmful because they revolve around trying to resolve a conflict far above human understanding. The Bible says we were foreknown and predestined (Rom 8:29) and also that we have choices and can fall away by turning away (2 Peter 2:21).

God knows, we don't. That's how I see it. Those who are saved have a sure salvation, but you don't know until you are dead whether that's you or not. Nevertheless, God gives us clear signs for us to tell our present state of grace, and if you constantly strive towards Him you can have peace of mind.

All the above is of course my opinion and not meant to be authoritative to anyone.

No doubt sin seperates us from God. Just because God chose us does mean we will not sin. Even Paul talks about struggling with the flesh. However we can still rejoice that we can come together and talk about these issues, and while we disagree on some, we still love each other as Christian Brothers and Sisters.
Delighting In God's Unconditional Election,
Calvinist

Originally posted by NewHope

Please tell me, S2S, what you think happened to the nature of mankind after the Fall.  Do you believe that mankind was totally depraved?  Do you believe they could do anything righteous?  Do you believe they sought after God?  Do you believe they could do anything to please God?
You say God has this wonderful gift and all you have to do is "accept it."  That sounds wonderful, except one thing.  How is it that you think a spiritually DEAD and UNRESPONSIVE being can respond and accept anything?
Where do you stand on the issue of total regeneration vs. previent grace?  An answer to that might go a long way to helping me understand what you're saying.
Thanks again.  I am very much enjoying this discussion with you.
Take care and God bless.

Click to expand...

No, I do not believe that man, left to his own devices, seeks after God. I do believe the Holy Spirit seeks after man, however. God gave to all men a conscience. That includes nonChristians. The Holy Spirit activates by "pricking the conscience" with conviction. Some people let what the Spirit is saying sink in, some do not. That is how I was saved. The Holy Spirit "pricked my conscience". I let Him in.

My salvation experience was very different than yours. I knew when it was happening that God was leading me to a choice. I remember very clearly that a sweet old man fom my church took me under his wing and would constantly witness to me. I remember it was a year or so after the Spirit started working on me that I finally gave in and let him in. And yes, it was a one time decision. At the moment I asked the Lord to be my Savior and Lord, I was crucified with Christ (my sin nature was destroyed). I became a new creation, and I became a slave to sin no more. I didn't realize all these things at that moment. I just knew that I didn't have the Lord and I wanted him. The Holy Spirit was "wooing" me. There was a conscious decision on my part.

I don't really know what "previent grace" means, but regeneration is the Spirit becoming a totally new creation (sin nature crucified, Holy Spirit moving in), so I definitely believe in regeneration.

Originally posted by calvinist

No matter how we are saved, don't forget WE'RE SAVED! I think that we can all say that sometimes we need to place down our theology disputes and rejoice in the grace that is Christ Jesus.
Thanking God for His Unconditional Election,
Calvinist

Click to expand...

Calvinist,

"Blessed are the peacemakers". That's you. I notice it here, and I notice it in the PMs you sent. That is a good quality that not many possess. Unfortunately, when it comes to theological debate, I don't have it.

 

NewHope,

You keep saying that accorsing to my beliefs, that it was my decision to follow Christ that saved me, not Christ's death on the cross. I'm going to address this for the last time.

If the death on the cross hadn't occurred, my decision to accept the death on the cross wouldn't mean squat. So, the actual work of salvation was Christ's death on the cross. Accepting that gift is NOT a work.

But, if you come right down to it, yes, I guess I did have a hand in "activating" salvation in my life. I made the decision to follow Christ. But that decision has no effect on the work of salvation at all. Christ still died 2000 years ago, he paid the price. He rose from the grave. He completed his work.

If someone made a really nice chair and offered it to me, and I refused to take it, does that mean that chair is not a chair? Does that negate what the carpenter did? No, it just means I decided not to have a chair in my life. The carpenter still had to buy the materials and go through the hard work of making that chair. My act of accepting or refusing the chair has absolutely nothing to do with the work of the chair.

Also, you are really splitting hairs with me when I said "the gift is given" and you say "No, the gift is taken". Yes, I took the gift, but only because it was offered to me. That's the "Given" part. Someone gives you a Christmas gift. 2 years down the road, that person says "oh, is that the watch I gave you?" Are you gonna say "No, that is the watch I took from you"? Of course you're not gonna say that. You wouldn't say that in "real life", so don't say that here. It's not realistic.

 

Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Slavenomore,

What is insulting by asking you where your boast is?
So what are the reasons YOU recieved Him and they did not?

Click to expand...

Maybe you didn't intend it to be insulting, but it certainly reads that way:

"C'mon, let me hear you boast". "Boasting" already has a negative connotation in our society, but when you throw that word around in a disagreement, that compounds it and it becomes even more inflammable.

For an answer to the second question, read a couple of posts above, where I address the Holy Spirit "pricking the conscience".

Folks, I bid you all adieu for a week. I'll be shoving off an adventure on the high seas (going on a cruise).

Bye Bye everyone.

I hope slavenomore has a wonderful trip.

And i hope when he returns, he explains how he knows everyone who ever lived recieved the same 'prick of the conscience' like he did.

This prick of the conscience doesnt explain why he knew the gospel to be true, yea true enough to stake his eternity on Jesus. Anyone else like to answer WHY they chose to accept Jesus?

Actually, regeneration is not an object like a watch. It is a condition. It is in no way like a material gift. It is an alteration of condition, death to life.

It is eternally evident that God elected some and did not elect others. The fact that God knows all means that God did not just choose based on merit. Neither does it alter the fact that God wants all to be saved. God unconditionally elected based on both. As strongly as the Bible teaches the God's sovereignty it also teaches man's freewill in the decision of salvation. Therefore we as mortal beings are incapable of covering this issue. We must understand that God is God and we are not. God is unlimited and we are limited in our state as a created being. We cannot disenfranchise either God's sovereign choice or man's freewill.

Originally posted by closer
As strongly as the Bible teaches the God's sovereignty it also teaches man's freewill in the decision of salvation.

Click to expand...

Where does it teach that man has freewill?

God is unlimited and we are.

Click to expand...

Actually, God is not unlimited.  He has limited Himself by His Word.

We cannot disenfranchise either God's sovereign choice or man's freewill. To do so would be heretical

Click to expand...

There is a definite need for distinction when referring to fallen man's ability to choose righteousness and regenerate man's decision to choose righteously.  I definitely discount fallen man's ability to choose righteousness and do not believe that anyone, including God, has "free will."

I also don't think it's a good idea, nor is it acceptable on this MB, to claim that because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation they are commiting heresy.  Try and refrain from doing so.

God bless.

I am sorry if I offended anyone. I am not attempting to say that if anyone disagrees with my interpretation they are heretics.
The Bible teaches freewill from the very issue of the first test. God the great architect knew from beginning to end what was going to happen. He planned it. At the same time He being God forces choice. Joshua asked the Israelites to choose whom they would serve. Without the ability to choose this is not only misleading, but also deceitful and a lie. The ministry of Jesus was one choice after another. Who is Jesus and what do we do? Everyman from the rich young ruler to Pilate had to choose. Jesus himself declared there was no middle ground. Freewill is based upon the general revelation of God to man. In all fields (Logic, history, science, etc...) man is capable of knowing their is a God. Also each man is responisble to choose how he will responed.
Is election unconditional? Without question. It is the complete and sovereign choice of God. How does this work in relation to man's freewill? That is a question that if God had wanted me to know the answer he would have told me.
Thank you for the correction regarding my statement on heresy as well it was a point well taken.