Can we pray to the dead? Yes. Should we pray to the dead? NO.

Peaceful Dove · Aug 12, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Funny how this thread is running parallel to the masturbation thread!

Almost same folks, same mindset?

mike1reynolds · Aug 12, 2006

Sex and death are very similar in some regards. To loose your self totally in another person is a sort of death, transfiguration and rebirth.

Hindu scripture talks about how evil people not only hate God, but hate the divine spark within themselves. Satan wants us to hate good things, like the oldest Church and true meaning of Union. Anything that helps leads us too true Union and to keep us firm in our resistance to inappropriate temptations is a good thing. To fear these things is paranoia. Even sugar can be abused, everything must be done with balance and moderation.

revduane · Aug 12, 2006

Peaceful Dove said:
Rev,
I spent over 30 years being a spiritual counselor in the Catholic Church. In many ways I have to agree with you.
Much of what you say is true. However, it has been my experience that many of these things you talk about have become more of a superstition than anything. Individual Catholics, mostly very poorly trained in the Faith have over time added to actual approved practices and corrupted them. I have worked with hundreds, maybe even thousands (I lost track a long time ago) of Catholics and discovered new things almost each time.

Remember though Rev., most Catholics do not have much more than a third grade religious education. Unlike other denominations (and non-denominations) Catholics are rather unique in the variety of cultures that are carried into the faith. For example, my in-laws are Italian and I was introduced in to the belief of the "evil eye" by my mother in law and her discription of an old woman known in the Italian neighborhood who could break the evil eye by dangling an egg over a persons head and some other mumbo jumbo. Of course we know this is witchcraft but no, not my mother in law. This was part of the Catholic Church and this lady (who broke spells) was a real saint.
That is only one example of some of the Cultural stuff.
People simply bring their background and baggage with them into the Church. Common sense tells you that this extreme example has nothing to do with Catholicism.

I have admitted many times that I have seen reverence to our Catholic heros, Mary, Joseph, Mother Teresa and the like carried to extremes. They do stick out like a sore thumb and will insist they are CATHOLIC. When I explained that idolotry is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church they deny that their extreme behavior is not idolotry.

I remember an old nun who told my son and his class of elementary school classmates if they should swing a Rosary over their heads and should die before going to confession they would go straight to hell. Scared the dickens out of my third grade son.
This nun and I went round and round, she insisted she was "taught" it was a sin. Finally the Priest interceded and corrected her in rather strong terms.

I do not excuse any of it or blame you and the folks in your support group.

Please believe there are many of us in the Charismatic Renwal in the Church whose main ministry is evangelizing Catholics and teaching.

A billion Catholics is a major job though.
It is one of the things Vatican II addressed. Priest now must go through continual education and with some exceptions are doing a far better job in Spiritual direction and teaching.

Hey there Peace.

I always respect your viewpoints. You are someone that thinks things through. I appreciate your outlook on this subject. Not because you may agree with me on several points. But you discuss it with me in the form that it was meant. To see if all of those practices were necessary, and Godly.

Thank you for looking at the whole picture.

Blessings. Rev.

Peaceful Dove · Aug 12, 2006

revduane said:
Hey there Peace.

I always respect your viewpoints. You are someone that thinks things through. I appreciate your outlook on this subject. Not because you may agree with me on several points. But you discuss it with me in the form that it was meant. To see why all of those practices were necessary, and Godly.

Thank you for looking at the whole picture.

Blessings. Rev.

Thanks Rev. I feel the same way about you.

A few times I have even helped some former Catholics to understand just a little bit better why certain things happen and why they are not precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.

It is very easy to turn a symbolism (and Catholics love symbols) into a superstition. Very easy.
One of the biggest things, though as I mentioned is the diverse cultures in the Catholic Church.
Just think about it. Africans, Italians, Irish, American Indian, Asian, Oriental, all of the different Latin American countrys ...wow the list goes on and on. Each one with different practices that ended up included in their faith walk.

Please don't be too harsh on the Catholic Church. I know you are a bigger man than that.

CaliforniaJosiah · Aug 12, 2006

MY perspective...

revduane said:
First of all the Bible does not say that we can.

There is not one place in the Bible that David, Paul, Peter, Daniel, or Abraham ever prayed to the dead. Jesus certainly didn't. When Jesus taught us how to pray. He never said to pray to dead people. He didn't say to ask dead people to pray for us. Nor did He ask dead people to join Him in Prayer.

The Bible DOES say that necromancy (praying to the dead for divination) is an abomination before God.

"There shall not be found among you any one that makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: And because of these abominations, the Lord thy
God doth drive them out before thee." Deuteronomy. 18:10-12.

Also see. 1 Samuel. 28:3-20..Isaiah 8:19-22.

It is very clear in the Bible that the punishment for talking to the dead for divination is very severe, if not repented of.

Praying to the dead might not be full blown necromancy, but it could easily be the first step to it. Just think about all of the people that have said that a dead person from the Bible, and or a saint came to visit them. That IS a form of necromancy, and usually never recognized as one. And it is an abomination before God, the Bible is clear about it, and there is no arguement.

If a person says they were visited, or whatever by a dead person saint or otherwise. They will never rebuke that spirit, because in the persons mind it is the saint, or the dead person they were talking or praying to, so Satan dupes them into believing in post mortem divination. God would not set up a system that would open the door for this kind of abomination.

It could be said that too many people are praying to saints at once, and that is why it fails. I still will not believe that god would set up a true system built to fail. Without man messing it up and choosing to sin.

Respected...

I consider this a matter of adiaphoron - a subject to which the Bible does not address.

Certainly, believers are invited - even encouraged - to pray for believers, and I suspect this includes the whole company of the communion of saints - both those on earth and those in heaven. I find no compelling reason to suspect that our brothers and sisters in heaven cannot or desire not to pray for us. On the other hand, I realize this is a subject not addressed in Scripture.

We are also invited to request the prayers of fellow believers. Whether our fellow believers now in heaven can hear our requests is an issue not directly addressed in Holy Scripture, but I suspect if they know our needs, they care and pray about it. But again, I cannot norm this affirmingly by Scripture.

Surely, the believers in heaven will be heard for their prayers - no less than others. But I also suspect no more than others.

MY perspective.

Pax.

- Josiah

.

Trento · Aug 12, 2006

revduane said:
First of all the Bible does not say that we can.

There is not one place in the Bible that David, Paul, Peter, Daniel, or Abraham ever prayed to the dead. Jesus certainly didn't. When Jesus taught us how to pray. He never said to pray to dead people. He didn't say to ask dead people to pray for us. Nor did He ask dead people to join Him in Prayer.

It could be said that too many people are praying to saints at once, and that is why it fails. I still will not believe that god would set up a true system built to fail. Without man messing it up and choosing to sin.

God Himself commanded the friends of Job to ask him for His intercession that their sin might not be imputed to them (Job 42:8). How, then, can it be wrong or superfluous to invoke the intercession of the saints in heaven?
The invocation of the saints was a practice of the early Church is proved by the numerous inscriptions of the tombs of the Roman 1 St Century catacombs preserved to this day.

We have also the testimony of one of the greatest Protestant philosophers, Leibnitz, for the claim that the veneration and invocation of the saints is founded in reason, on Holy Scripture, and on the tradition of the Church. He writes,
Because we justly expect great advantage by uniting our prayers with those of our brethren here on earth, I can not understand how it can be called a crime if a person invokes the intercession of a glorified soul, or an angel. If it be really idolatry or a detestable cult to invoke the saints and the angels to intercede for us with God, I do not comprehend how Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Amrbose, and others, who were hitherto considered saints, can be absolved from idolatry or superstition. To continue in such a practice would indeed not be a small defect in the Fathers, such as is inherent in human nature - it would be an enormous public crime. For if the Church, even in those early times, was infected with such abominable errors, let any one judge for himself what the Christian faith would eventually come to. Would not Gamaliel's proposition, to judge whether Christ's religion be divine or human from its effects, result in its disfavor?"
The veneration of the saints differs from the worship of God in the following:

1. We adore God as our supreme Lord. We honor the saints as His faithful servants and friends.

2. We adore God for His own sake. We honor the saints for the gifts and prerogatives with which God endowed them.

There is a difference between the prayer to God and the invocation of the saints. We pray to God asking Him to help us by His omnipotence; we pray to the saints to help us by their intercession with God.

The supposition that we need a passage to tell us something is okayto do is the very essence of legalism-the idea that one must have special permission before one is allowed to do something, the principle "Whatever is not expressly permitted is prohibited." A fundamental principle of all law-a principle which legalism rejects-is that whatever is not expressly prohibited is permitted. God gave us intellects and expects us to use them. The function of his law is to set boundaries to make sure we know what we are not permitted do.

Nothing can be more legalistic than the idea you have to have an express biblical permission before you can do something. Legalistic, soul-scarring misunderstanding is a key part of the Pharisaical mindset that Jesus condemned, for if one follows this principle consistently, one will most assuredly "tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders" (Matthew 23:4)

kamikat · Aug 12, 2006

Peaceful Dove said:
Bury a statue upside down in their yard!!!!!
What the heck is that about?

I have been a Catholic for over 50 years and that is a new one on me!

ROFLOL LORD HAVE MERCY!

Really?!?! It's very common around here. You can buy the kits in the local grocery stores, usually in the Hispanic aisle. In fact, my sister claims to have sold her house in less than a week of being on the market because of this tradition, about a month ago.

http://www.stjosephstatue.com/

kamikat

kamikat · Aug 12, 2006

Oh, and don't forget about the book "St Joseph, My Real Estate Agent", by Stephan J. Binz

HisKid1973 · Aug 12, 2006

Peaceful Dove said:
Please believe there are many of us in the Charismatic Renewal in the Church whose main ministry is evangelizing Catholics and teaching..

I sense you and I would have wonderful fellowship together..You are totally unlike those of Catholic faith that I have been around in the past. They were party hearty and the Catholic girls from the next town were commented about when I was in high school...shalom..Kim

catlover · Aug 13, 2006

kamikat said:
Really?!?! It's very common around here. You can buy the kits in the local grocery stores, usually in the Hispanic aisle. In fact, my sister claims to have sold her house in less than a week of being on the market because of this tradition, about a month ago.

http://www.stjosephstatue.com/

kamikat

I can sell my house if i do that?? Wow...

Catherineanne · Aug 13, 2006

Peaceful Dove said:
Almost same folks, same mindset?

Not quite. You will not find me there. :wave:

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 8, 2010

ScottBot said:
Can we keep debating this topic? Yes.

Should we keep debating this topic......

Yes

Jpark · Apr 8, 2010

Never mind.

Athanasias · Apr 8, 2010

Why do we Pray to saints? What does the bible show us?

The word Pray has a broad meaning, Any dictionary will show this. It can mean worship or communication to God. Or it can also mean to simply "ask another human being". The word itself comes from Prithie Or I pray thee, or I ask you.

When a Catholic prays to God he is asking God to help him and he is also worshiping God. But when a Catholic prays to Mary or the Saints, they are simply "Asking" those saints to pray for them to God. Just like you would ask your Christian friends(the body of Christ on earth) to pray for you we Catholics also ask our departed brothers(the body of Christ in heaven) to pray for us. We do this for several reasons.

1) We do not believe that Christ has two bodies(one in heaven and one on earth) we believe that there is only One body of Christ(Eph 4:4). That one body exist in both heaven and on earth.

2) We believe that God wants his Body to pray and intercede for each other (1 Tim 2:1)

3) We believe that the prayers of the righteous man avails much(James 5:16)
and who is more righteous than those in heaven?

4) We believe that those in heaven hear our prayers to them and offer them up like incense before Gods heavenly Throne(Rev 5:8) on our behalf.

We also see this understanding as a apostolic tradition that was taught and practiced in the early Christian communities and liturgies of the Christian Church.

We first and foremost pray to God directly and develop a relationship with him.
We do not worship saints. We worship God alone!

Gods Bless you all in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

JamesAH · Apr 8, 2010

Ah I see everyone's favorite thread bumper is at it again

prodromos · Apr 8, 2010

LLoJ strikes again

LiturgyInDMinor · Apr 8, 2010

Another thread revived! woot.

Tangible · Apr 8, 2010

He's fortunate. On most boards "thread necromancy" is a serious offense.

Stryder06 · Apr 9, 2010

Athanasias said:
Why do we Pray to saints? What does the bible show us?

The word Pray has a broad meaning, Any dictionary will show this. It can mean worship or communication to God. Or it can also mean to simply "ask another human being". The word itself comes from Prithie Or I pray thee, or I ask you.

When a Catholic prays to God he is asking God to help him and he is also worshiping God. But when a Catholic prays to Mary or the Saints, they are simply "Asking" those saints to pray for them to God. Just like you would ask your Christian friends(the body of Christ on earth) to pray for you we Catholics also ask our departed brothers(the body of Christ in heaven) to pray for us. We do this for several reasons.

1) We do not believe that Christ has two bodies(one in heaven and one on earth) we believe that there is only One body of Christ(Eph 4:4). That one body exist in both heaven and on earth.

2) We believe that God wants his Body to pray and intercede for each other (1 Tim 2:1)

3) We believe that the prayers of the righteous man avails much(James 5:16)
and who is more righteous than those in heaven?

4) We believe that those in heaven hear our prayers to them and offer them up like incense before Gods heavenly Throne(Rev 5:8) on our behalf.

We also see this understanding as a apostolic tradition that was taught and practiced in the early Christian communities and liturgies of the Christian Church.

We first and foremost pray to God directly and develop a relationship with him.
We do not worship saints. We worship God alone!

Gods Bless you all in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias

All that would be fine and dandy if it weren't for the fact that the dead know nothing (Ecc 9:5). Nor do they praise God (Ps 115:17). Interestingly enough Point 3 sounds a lot like the work that the Holy Spirit does.

Thekla · Apr 9, 2010

How can anyone in the body of Christ be dead ? Wouldn't that make the body of Christ gangrenous ?

Paul attests that nothing - not even death - can separate us from the love of God. Further, see Philippians 1 vs. aprox 20 on ...

Can we pray to the dead? Yes. Should we pray to the dead? NO.

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my love is bigger than a cadillac

my love is bigger than a cadillac

Thank You Jesus For Interceding For Me

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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