billwald said:Repeat my challange to find ONE verse in Exo through Deut that obligates gentiles living outside the land to any part of the Mosiac Covenant.
Mark 7:
1 Then the Pharisees, and some of the scribes gathered together to him, having come from Jerusalem.
2 Now when they saw some of his disciples eating bread with defiled, that is, unwashed, hands, they found fault.
3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, dont eat unless they wash their hands and forearms, holding to the tradition of the elders.
4 They dont eat when they come from the marketplace, unless they bathe themselves, and there are many other things, which they have received to hold to: washings of cups, pitchers, bronze vessels, and couches.)
5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, Why dont your disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?
2:...and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to Yahweh (That's us), speak, saying, Yahweh will surely separate me from his people; (!!!)
The Thadman said:1) Everything is not ritually clean. Pork is still ritually unclean as far as the Bible teaches. Jesus' exchange with the Pharisees in Mark is a debate against Jewish Oral Tradition:
clinzey said:But Jesus did declare all foods clean - Mark 7:19. Cleanliness isn't a ritualistic matter anymore, it's an issue of the heart.
1 Then the Pharisees, and some of the scribes gathered together to him, having come from Jerusalem.
2 Now when they saw some of his disciples eating bread ((NOTE: He was eating BREAD. Not ritually unclean food.)) with defiled, that is, unwashed, hands, they found fault.
3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, dont eat unless they wash their hands and forearms, holding to the tradition of the elders.
4 They dont eat when they come from the marketplace, unless they bathe themselves, and there are many other things, which they have received to hold to: washings of cups, pitchers, bronze vessels, and couches.) ((NOTE: This is found nowhere in the Torah, so this must be an issue of the oral tradition. See "tradition of the elders"? This in Aramaic or Hebrew would be the Gemara of the Fathers, i.e. part of the works that were later compiled as the Talmud.))
5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, Why dont your disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?((NOTE: No pork, no shellfish. Bread ))
6 He answered them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
This people honors me with their lips,
But their heart is far from me.
7 But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the tradition of menthe washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things.
9 He said to them, Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother; and, He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.
11 But you say, If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever profit you might have received from me is Qorbani
12 then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother,
13 making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this.
14 He called all the multitude to himself, and said to them, Hear me, all of you, and understand.
15 There is nothing from outside of the man, that going into him can defile him; ((NOTE: Paranoid rigorous washing of hands anyone?)) but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man.
16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!
17 When he had entered into a house away from the multitude, his disciples asked him about the parable.
18 He said to them, Are you thus without understanding also? Dont you perceive that whatever goes into the man from outside cant defile him,
19 because it doesnt go into his heart, but into his stomach, then into the latrine, thus making all food clean? ((NOTE: He would have not called pork or shellfish "food." ))
20 He said, That which proceeds out of the man, that defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the hearts of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, sexual sins, murders, thefts,
22 covetings, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, an evil eye ((NOTE: An "evil" eye is a very Jewish idea.)), blasphemy, pride, and foolishness.
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
If taxgatherers entered a house all that is within it becomes unclean; even if a gentile was with them, they may be believed if they say `We did not enter,' but (if a gentile was with them) they may not be believed if they say `We entered but we touched naught.' If thieves entered a house only that part is unclean that was trodden by the feet of the thieves
-- M.Tohoroth 7:6.
14 I know, and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself; except that to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
The Thadman said:Now looking at the entirety of the verse:
Pharisees made NO distinction between ritual impurity and moral sin, believing that they were one in the same.
seangoh said:Hi trucker, first off, i'm SDA so let me put things in proper perspective.
I believe that Jesus died for my sins and He did everything possible to save us. We didn't have to do anything. IOW, i'm just sitting down here typing away knowing that God had done something that i couldn't do. He saved the world and that if i believe and accept it, i will be saved.
Now with this knowledge, i know that i am saved and so i'm extremely grateful! So the next question is "what do i do??" or "what is the proper response?" or "what do you want me to do Lord?". Of course i know i'm already saved, but i just want to do something that is pleasing to God in this life and i want to make sure it is. So the guidelines that i see are in the 10 commandments which of course includes the Sabbath commandment.
I see it often that if couples are so in love with each other, they would do anything to make the other happy. This would include asking "i know you love me already and i'm grateful for you BUT what can i do to make you happy?i really want to behave in a proper way and to please you"
Jesus represented human race in saving us. And i am certain that he wouldn't leave us without any guidelines in ways we could express ourselves such that it would be pleasing to Him. The 10 commandments are essentially the guidelines in this world to please Him. They DO NOT replace the sacrifice of Jesus nor do they provide salvation to us. It is just a proper response!
Lastly, christians would agree that the whole salvation message is wrapped up in one word "Love".
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. " Matt 22:37-40
I would propose a hierarchy of commandments if you will.
At the top level you have LOVE.
The second level you have love to God, and love to neighbor. In verse 40 it goes on to say "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
So the third level would be the 10 commandments. 1st 4 commandments describes our response to God. Last 6 describes our response to our neighbor.
Is there a 4th level? Yes. When Jesus came, he demonstrated what the 4th level was. He came to earth to demonstrate the SPIRIT of the law. Note that the 3rd level (10 commandments) is the LETTER of the law. And the religious leaders of that day were just keeping the LETTER without the SPIRIT. So one purpose Jesus came was to re-introduce the SPIRIT into the law and to teach them the proper way of true obedience. So the 4th level would be like "You murder too if you have angry thoughts against your brother". IOW, it gets more specific as you go down the levels. But yet, the top level is LOVE. That's why i say, LOVE is enough. But do not forget how many things would be hanging on that word LOVE.
If i am truly grateful for Jesus' death for me on the cross, i would bother to ask "what do you want me to do Lord?You did everything and i just want to live a pleasing life wholly and acceptable to you". Jesus answers "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15. John goes on to say "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."1 John 5:3
I've been an SDA all my life and his commandments provide freedom (James 1:25) and satisfaction to my life because i know it is pleasing to Him. There is nothing more i can do than to obey because i know Jesus saved me already.
Hope you get a better picture of SDAs. Of course some demonstrate in such a way that the 10 commandments are SOO necessary as if they are necessary for salvation but it's not what we believe.
trucker said:John 20:26: NO WORSHIP. It says after 8 days. If his first appearance was on a Sunday, his next would be on a Monday if the period of time was 8 days. This does not help your case
Thadman,
You are not counting the way the Jews did and are using their statement with todays method. Use one method only. If yyou use their statement count the way they did, or make a correct assement using after 7 days the way we count today.
trucker
clinzey said:I have looked at the entire verse. While it begins over a discussion over ritual washing, it ends on a note about all foods. By not washing then the food consumed by unclean hands becomes unclean, no? Jesus said that nothing going into a man from the outside can defile - he never said "except for pork and shellfish."
Leviticus 11:46-47:
46 This is the Torah on the animal, and of the bird, and of every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth,
47 to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean, and between the living thing that is may be eaten (food) and the living thing that may not be eaten. (not food)
Deuteronomy 14:3
3 You shall not eat any abominable thing.
The Thadman said:Secondly: Unclean animals were NOT food to a Jew.
clinzey said:I disagree with this point. If Jews did not view it as food (even forbidden food) then there would be no need for an injunction against it. And as Paul says, "Food does not bring us near to God."
Andre said:Mark 7
18 And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
Thus He declared all foods clean... This part is there in the text, it was written by Mark, I think it's pretty clear to me.
That's where you an I might dissagree, I don't see a contratiction there, and I take everything in the Bible as the Word of God and not the interpretation of the writer.The Thadman said:That's a Markan parenthesis which the majority of scholars will agree is not part of the original text. The rest would agree that it is Mark's own private interpretation, as the other two Syntopic Gospels do not have such a remark. Mark did not know Jesus, and as a result was not present when these words were spoken.
In short, do we hinge on the words of Mark or God?
Additionally, the issue still stands that Levitically unclean animals were not food to a Jew, God forbade it. The entire debate started over eating bread with un-ritually-washed hands. There is no record of Jesus ever partaking of any food that was ritually unclean, nor record of any of the Apostles or his Disciples either. This would have made a HUGE stir in the Jewish population, and there would have been some record of it.
Shlomo,
-Steve-o