Can we pray to the dead? Yes. Should we pray to the dead? NO.

Oblio · Aug 8, 2006

ThreeAM · Aug 8, 2006

Scott_LaFrance said:
You keep going on with the Old Covenant. I'll stick with the new one.

My Bad I thought Corinthians was in the new covenant.

And when is that victory over death declared for you and me?

1 Cr 15:52-55 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Cr 15:21-23 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ SHALL [Future tense] all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We are NOT made alive until the 2nd coming.

ScottBot · Aug 8, 2006

But what about St. Paul in Romans: "For I cannot wait to be apart from my body and with the Lord."

christianmomof3 · Aug 8, 2006

Oblio said:
Strawman

Thank you for the definition.

It seems that a straw man answer changes the topic to something else and refutes it.
I do not think that I did so with this:

deceived into thinking that their prayers are somehow not effective enough and that they need to pray to (or through) Mary or other dead people.

I have read many threads on this board about praying to dead people and angels and Mary and one point that was brought out was the belief that those dead people, angels and Mary are somehow on better terms with God than other people so it is good to pray to them because the Lord will listen to their prayers more. I did not make up that point - I learned it here on this board. The idea that dead Christians are not dead is to me a bit ludicrous because you cannot see and speak to them nor can they respond to you and honestly if someone thinks they are seeing and hearing dead people it is either deamons or they need to see a psychiatrist.
I imagine the same arguement is used by athiests about God. But, while we cannot see Him, we can hear Him and understand Him through our heart.

Leah · Aug 8, 2006

Asinner said:
I don't ask the dead to pray for me. I ask those who are alive in Christ. As far as I'm concerned, those that have gone on before me and are with Christ are way more alive than those here in the flesh.

God Bless

Bingo!

christianmomof3 · Aug 8, 2006

Scott_LaFrance said:
But what about St. Paul in Romans: "For I cannot wait to be apart from my body and with the Lord."

Paul does not say that we should talk to Him when He is apart from his body and with the Lord, nor do we see any accounts of Paul speaking to or praying to any one who had died and gone to be with the Lord before Him. He only prayed to the Lord.

Oblio · Aug 8, 2006

I have read many threads on this board about praying to dead people and angels and Mary and one point that was brought out was the belief that those dead people, angels and Mary are somehow on better terms with God than other people so it is good to pray to them because the Lord will listen to their prayers more.

this is not the same as

not effective enough and that they need to pray to (or through)

e.g. I can dig a hole to build a fishpond with a shovel and a pickaxe, or I can call a friend with a backhoe to help. This does not say that digging the pond by myself with handtools is uneffective, or that I need to call my friend.

Oblio · Aug 8, 2006

Another way to look at it is if intercessory prayer is because direct prayer is not effective enough then why would anyone ask for prayers of another Christian ? Evangelical Protestants don't believe this, neither do we.

ThreeAM · Aug 8, 2006

Scott_LaFrance said:
But what about St. Paul in Romans: "For I cannot wait to be apart from my body and with the Lord."

You have misinterpreted that verse.

Paul is speaking from the point of view of person who dies one moment they die and the very next concious thought is the resurection no matter how much time has elapsed. The last concious thought before death is followed by the next concious thought of the resurrection with no preception of time in between.

This was written in the New Covenant as well.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Orthosdoxa · Aug 8, 2006

ThreeAM said:
You have misinterpreted that verse.

Paul is speaking from the point of view of

I'm always interested when someone makes such an authoritative statement. What is such authority based on? ie, How are you sure where St. Paul is coming from? Is it enough that someone disagrees with you for you to make a bold statement that they do not interpret something correctly?

LK

ThreeAM · Aug 8, 2006

Anonykat said:
I'm always interested when someone makes such an authoritative statement. What is such authority based on? ie, How are you sure where St. Paul is coming from? Is it enough that someone disagrees with you for you to make a bold statement that they do not interpret something correctly?

LK

I make it based on the fact that God does not disagree with Himself.

Only God has immortality.

1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Our soul is not immortal we are mortals.

Ezekiel 18:20. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Orthosdoxa · Aug 8, 2006

But that's still YOUR interpretation of those verses.

LK

ThreeAM · Aug 8, 2006

Anonykat said:
But that's still YOUR interpretation of those verses.

LK

Yes and we know what Scott's and YOUR interpretation of the Roman's verse is also.

Trento · Aug 8, 2006

ThreeAM said:
I make it based on the fact that God does not disagree with Himself.

Only God has immortality.

1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Our soul is not immortal we are mortals.

Ezekiel 18:20. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

John 11:25-26 (New International Version)

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus said it i believe it and that ends that.

IgnatiusOfAntioch · Aug 8, 2006

revduane said:
When you use a web-site to help you quote your views, try not to write it word for word.

Yup, that's my post alright, nice attempt at sidestepping to avoiding the issue though.

Now let's address the matter these scriptures.

When the Bible is properly understood, it clearly directs the Faithful to ask our departed borotheren in heaven to pray with us and for us. In Psalms Ps. 103:20-21, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!". With Psalms 148:1-2 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!".

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation 8:3-4, we read that An angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God".

In Revalation 5:8 John also shows that those in heaven offer our prayers to God. John's vision shows "the twenty-four elders the leaders of the people of God in heaven fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints".

This passage clearly demonstrates thatThe saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Yours in Christ.

ThreeAM · Aug 8, 2006

Trento said:
John 11:25-26 (New International Version)

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus said it i believe it and that ends that.

Jesus was speaking about the gift of immortality which is given to us at the last trumpet at the resurrection not before.

Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

1 Cr 15:53-54-55 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

revduane · Aug 8, 2006

lionroar0 said:
Isaiah 8:19-22 (New International Version)

This is talking about those that consult mediums and spiritist. The CC and EOC probihit consulting mediums and spirists. This has nothing to do with praying to the Saints.

Peace

Just because something is done in the name of Jesus, or done out of good intentions doesn't make correct, biblically or otherwise.

Firefall · Aug 8, 2006

IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
Yup, that's my post alright, nice attempt at sidestepping to avoiding the issue though.

Now let's address the matter these scriptures.

When the Bible is properly understood, it clearly directs the Faithful to ask our departed borotheren in heaven to pray with us and for us. In Psalms Ps. 103:20-21, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!". With Psalms 148:1-2 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!".

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation 8:3-4, we read that An angel came and stood at the altar in heaven with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God".

In Revalation 5:8 John also shows that those in heaven offer our prayers to God. John's vision shows "the twenty-four elders the leaders of the people of God in heaven fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints".

This passage clearly demonstrates thatThe saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Yours in Christ.

Alright that is it! These verses have been quoted too many times with one point wrong about the context. I can't believe this issue hasn't been picked up yet.

"Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the alter. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand. The the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake." Rev 8:1-5 (NIV)

A saint is not always a martyr.

"...To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons..." Phil 1:1b

"...To all the saints in Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus..." Eph 1:1b

"To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints..." Rom 1:7a

Clearly, in all those three verses, the saints are living on earth as defined by the place names. Romans 1:7a also states that all those who are loved by God are called to be saints. That means you and I who are Christians are saints.

Nowhere else are saints referred to those who are already in heaven. And the verses in Revelation do not state that it is the saints that are already there that are offering the prayers to God - it is an angel!

The verses from Psalms are speaking solely of praise. Whilst praise can be a part of prayer, in no way do the verses imply that those from the heavens, and the heights pray or offer the petitions or requests in prayer of those on earth.

********

The belief that saints in heaven offer our requests to God is very unbiblical and is based on the assumption that the word 'saint' when mentioned in such verses precludes those on earth and refers to those in heaven, when the only verses that give a hint into such matters refer to saints on earth!

Furthermore, in this thread there seems to be an inconsistancy between the terms alive and dead. As Christians, our mortal bodies shall surely die, but we will be spiritually alive in the presence of Christ just as we are spiritually alive now. And we will not die the second death.

Peace,

Firefall.

revduane · Aug 8, 2006

stivvy said:
1 Tim. 2:11-15 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. Paul is emphasizing the womans primary role as the giver of natural life, just as a mans primary role is the giver of supernatural life. Again, Paul bases his teaching on Gods order of creation.

1 Cor. 14:34-35 the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. Notice that Paul says women should be silent in churches as even the law says. In verse 37, he reiterates what I am writing you is a command of the Lord. Paul is explaining that forbidding women to speak in church is a divine command from Almighty God (and not sexist or culturally motivated).

So are you still insistant to take the literal word? You need to be consistent then and follow these simple two examples. Need more? Hehehe

You need to study the Bible better. It was not a command from God.

Lotar · Aug 8, 2006

Firefall said:
Alright that is it! These verses have been quoted too many times with one point wrong about the context. I can't believe this issue hasn't been picked up yet.

"Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the alter. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand. The the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake." Rev 8:1-5 (NIV)

A saint is not always a martyr.

"...To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons..." Phil 1:1b

"...To all the saints in Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus..." Eph 1:1b

"To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints..." Rom 1:7a

Clearly, in all those three verses, the saints are living on earth as defined by the place names. Romans 1:7a also states that all those who are loved by God are called to be saints. That means you and I who are Christians are saints.

Nowhere else are saints referred to those who are already in heaven. And the verses in Revelation do not state that it is the saints that are already there that are offering the prayers to God - it is an angel!

Actually, the Apocalypse of St. John does speak of saints in heaven. Remember the martyrs wondering how long before the wicked are judged?

The verses from Psalms are speaking solely of praise. Whilst praise can be a part of prayer, in no way do the verses imply that those from the heavens, and the heights pray or offer the petitions or requests in prayer of those on earth.

They were petitions to the angels. Note that it address the angels, asking them to bless the Lord, and they honor the angels. The Psalter was the Jewish prayer book.

********

The belief that saints in heaven offer our requests to God is very unbiblical and is based on the assumption that the word 'saint' when mentioned in such verses precludes those on earth and refers to those in heaven, when the only verses that give a hint into such matters refer to saints on earth!

Furthermore, in this thread there seems to be an inconsistancy between the terms alive and dead. As Christians, our mortal bodies shall surely die, but we will be spiritually alive in the presence of Christ just as we are spiritually alive now. And we will not die the second death.

Peace,

Firefall.

No, saint does include those on earth. You are the one making the error in stating that saint does not include those who have fallen asleep in the Lord. We are to ask for the intercession of our fellow members of the Church. No where does the Bible exclude the dead from this commandment, for truly, they are not dead!

Can we pray to the dead? Yes. Should we pray to the dead? NO.

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