I have alot riding on Christ

NarrowPathPilgrim said:

Hmmm, so if I acquired a world view which taught that murder is good. Then murder would be good? Each person decides for himself what is right and wrong?

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Of course I would say no because I believe murder is wrong. If you acquired this world view, I would say you were wrong and you would say I was wrong. We then have a disagreement, but there is no Law that tells us who is right.

jfer45 said:

The Jews didn't even have a notion of a heaven or hell back in the time of the Ten Commandments.

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What???
Here are a few references to hell:
Deuteronomy 32:22; 2 Samuel 22:6; Job 11:8; 26:6; Psalms 9:17; 16:10; 18:5; 55:15; 86:13; 116:3; 139:8; Proverbs 5:5; 7:27; 9:18; 15:11, 24; 23:14; 27:20; Isaiah 5:14; 14:9, 15; 28:15, 18; 57:9; Ezekiel 31:16, 17; 32:21, 27; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2; Habakkuk 2:5;
Heaven is mentioned 7 times in Genesis 1 alone! You REALLY need to read your Bible. Isaiah 11, 65, and 66 are extremely clear.

BigChrisfilm said:

Have you ever looked at a women with lust? Also, have you ever hated someone?

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BigChrisfilm, Hatred does have its proper place, in fact, it is not only permissible, but in some instances, required. It should be noted that I am not referring to a personal hatred, but rather to a righteous hatred.


Serving My King,
Zach Doty

BigChrisfilm said:

I have choosen to put all my faith in Christ. I don't think I need baptism. I don't think I need sacrements. I don't think I need works. I don't think I need traditions. I don't think I need Mary. I don't think I need the sabbath. I have alot riding on Christ. Does anyone think that when the day of Judgement comes, that Christ will not be enuff to get me into heaven?

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That is my opinion as well. To assert that you need to do all those religious things in addition to having faith in Christ to get into heaven put simply says that Jesus' sacrifical death on the cross is not enough to get you into heaven.

That said, works and so on are the fruits of your Christian faith as others and you yourself have said. James tells us that it is impossible to be a true Christian and not have any 'evidence' or 'fruit' to show for it.

I think that baptism is a good way to show God, yourself, and other people that you're serious about having a relationship with God through Jesus. It doesn't save you, it is just an outward reflection of an inward faith. That's really all what baptism is, publically stating that you're livin' for the King.

That said, you do need to be spiritually baptized - which is done by the Holy Spirit upon conversion when you place your faith in Christ, I think.

As for Mary, she was a sinner just like you and me. She is of no help what-so-ever to me and my situations. I believe that she is still dead and in the grave - so praying to her is pointless. Similarly with the New Testament saints.

Lastly, you do keep the Sabbath in Christ who completed the Old Testament Law.

NarrowPathPilgrim said:

Hatred does have its proper place, in fact, it is not only permissible, but in some instances, required. It should be noted that I am not referring to a personal hatred, but rather to a righteous hatred.

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Well, I've never heard of righteous hatred before...

I've heard of righteous anger and this was displayed in the Person of Jesus Christ several times, but righteous hatred? It sounds a bit of a contradiction in terms.

GreenLeader said:

Well, I've never heard of righteous hatred before...

I've heard of righteous anger and this was displayed in the Person of Jesus Christ several times, but righteous hatred? It sounds a bit of a contradiction in terms.

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Here are a few verses which will illustrate my point:

Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Psalms 97:10 - Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Amos 5:15 - Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

Psalms 139:19-24
19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Leviticus 20:23 - And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Leviticus 26:30 - And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Deuteronomy 32:19 - And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Psalm 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 5:6 - Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psalm 10:3 - For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.

Psalm 11:5 - The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 53:5 - There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

Psalm 73:20 - As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

Psalm 78:59 - When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:

Psalm 106:40 - Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

Proverbs 6:16-19 - These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Proverbs 22:14 - The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.

Lamentations 2:6 - And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Hosea 9:15 - All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Zechariah 11:8 - Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Malachi 1:3 - And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Sincerely, Zach Doty

Jesus is enough to save both legalists and antinomanists, even if they both sin by calling each other those things

BigChrisfilm said:

I have choosen to put all my faith in Christ. I don't think I need baptism. I don't think I need sacrements. I don't think I need works. I don't think I need traditions. I don't think I need Mary. I don't think I need the sabbath. I have alot riding on Christ. Does anyone think that when the day of Judgement comes, that Christ will not be enuff to get me into heaven?

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HE has a lot riding on YOU.

One thing YOU do need is Communion and I am not speaking of Liturgy or the Eucharist in and of themselves - BUT the healing Communion of being in the Body of Christ and in a fellowship of believers where you can minister and receive ministry and Prayer.

I can see your call to radical dependency, joy and wonder and I can see your anointing and your Faith growing - it will exponentially increase if you come under the Corporate Anointing in whatever expression of Church the LORD calls you to be identified with - there is a man here in the EO [TAW forum] - his name is OrthodoxyUSA - ask him to impart some of his anointing to you in Prayer and you will understand the importance of "meeting together" - he has a pastoral and evangelical ministry - he will minister to you and it will be powerful.


Mark

NarrowPathPilgrim said:

What???

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Heaven, in Hebrew Bible times, was the dwelling place of God. It was above the dome ("firament") that seperated the primordial waters above from the water below.

Hell is not the same thing as Sheol. Sheol is not a place of suffering, but it is associated with many things including worms, maggots, and wickedness.

BigChrisfilm said:

I have choosen to put all my faith in Christ. I don't think I need baptism. I don't think I need sacrements. I don't think I need works. I don't think I need traditions. I don't think I need Mary. I don't think I need the sabbath. I have alot riding on Christ. Does anyone think that when the day of Judgement comes, that Christ will not be enuff to get me into heaven?

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So, for you it is only about getting into heaven?

Who knows? Best bet is to actually listen to what Christ is telling you instead of just saying "I trust Chirst" and not doing what he says to do....How can you beleive that Christ is God and then refuse to do what it is that he commands you to do?

Deny yourself. Pick up your cross and follow after him.

(Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Luke 9:23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Eternal salvation is secured by faith alone. But, that is not all there is. We are saved from sin, sins, death, and the world according to the Bible and there may be some others I can't remember off of the top of my head. The Bible does not say that dead people go to heaven or that heaven is our eternal destination. It tells us in Revelation that our eternal destination is to be a part of the New Jerusalem. There is dispenstational reward and purnishment referred to in the Bible. Matthew speaks of inheriting the kingdom of the heavens which is a reward in the millenial kingdom and that will be determined by the amount of Christ we have gained during our lifetime. The virgins who do not have oil (the Spirit of the Lord) in their vessels (souls) are still saved believers, but they have not grown in Christ and have not consecrated themselves to Him during their lifetime so they will suffer the punishment of the outer darkness in order to mature them during the millenium so that they will be ready to join the overcoming believers in the New Jerusalem.
We need to be those who are constantly seeking Christ and devoting our lives to Him and who are enjoying Him with other believers. Baptism is not required for eternal salvation - the thief on the cross was not baptised, but he was saved, but it is an act of obedience to show your faith before the living believers and before the angels and demons who are watching. It is highly recommended in the Bible and is linked to salvation from the world. Mark 16:16 says "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned."

Sorry to come into this kind of late. Jfer mind if I raise a few objections to your points?

jfer45 said:

The Bible is not from God, but pointing towards the Spirit, God the Sacred etc… Friend, I can only say it so many times and in so many ways (all in English of course). I make no truth claim about the afterlife (which includes heaven and hell or any other name referring to a place after this life).

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This is a truth claim about the afterlife, since the bible makes claims about the after life. A negative claim is still a claim.

Simply put, I do not believe mental assent is what God is looking for? I sometimes ask myself a simple, but enlightening question: Does God really care what is in our heads when we die?

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The bible makes it very clear that faith in Christ is more than mental assent. Mental assent may be necessary, but it isn’t sufficient.

Morality, I believe, is discerned from mulitple sources. Our parents, friends and society all contribute to our notion to what is good and true; basically, we acquire our world view from our surrondings.

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Do you believe in personal responsibility?

I do not believe these have eternal implications though. The Jews didn't even have a notion of a heaven or hell back in the time of the Ten Commandments.

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This has logical problems. It’s a form of circular reasoning. You need to first assume the Jews text wasn’t inspired and was made up in order for this to follow, otherwise the absence of a claim isn’t its negation.

Jfer45 I have a more specific question for you so I know where you are coming from, are you an epistemological skeptic? Or only a religious skeptic?

Also, If there is a God Jfer, can we agree he is unique?

eoe said:

Who knows? Best bet is to actually listen to what Christ is telling you instead of just saying "I trust Chirst" and not doing what he says to do....How can you beleive that Christ is God and then refuse to do what it is that he commands you to do?

Deny yourself. Pick up your cross and follow after him.

(Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Luke 9:23) And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

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Recognize that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. If we are to trust in our works in addition to the cross and grace of Jesus Christ, then we are to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect. The sacrifice was useless if we need to do good works in order to be saved. What makes you think that anything is more pleasing to God than the sacrifice of His own Son? There is nothing more pleasing to Him than that, recognize that.

Recognize that salvation is through Faith Alone, though Faith is never alone.

To the glory of God,

Randy

BigChrisfilm said:

Hey, have you ever lusted after a women, or hated someone?

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I would consider myself a saint if my lust was limited to "a woman".

BigChrisfilm said:

So, is salvation of faith, or faith plus works?

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If you have faith, you will in turn have works. Do the works save you? No. The Bible says that faith without works is dead, meaning if you have true faith, there will be works to show forth. It's like this; if you truly have Christ in your life, your life will reflect and others will begin to see a change in you. That is 'works'. Not necessarily anything you do or don't do.

JonF said:

Sorry to come into this kind of late. Jfer mind if I raise a few objections to your points?

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No, not at all.

JonF said:

This is a truth claim about the afterlife, since the bible makes claims about the after life. A negative claim is still a claim.

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No, I do not claim to know if there is or is not an afterlife.

JonF said:

The bible makes it very clear that faith in Christ is more than mental assent. Mental assent may be necessary, but it isn’t sufficient.

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Are you talking about the "giving your heart" to Jesus metaphor? Would not you then have to give your mental assent that there is something more than "head" stuff (i.e. the soul, heart, whole self etc.)

JonF said:

Do you believe in personal responsibility?

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In what context? Do you mean to ask if I believe in holding one accountable for wrongful deeds?

JonF said:

This has logical problems. It’s a form of circular reasoning. You need to first assume the Jews text wasn’t inspired and was made up in order for this to follow, otherwise the absence of a claim isn’t its negation.

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How is it circular? Most Christians covertly believe that sinning as some sort of long-lasting, eternal implication attached to the act. I was merely stating that to the Hewbrews, forgiveness from sin was, for the most part, part of the here and now, part of life.

JonF said:

Jfer45 I have a more specific question for you so I know where you are coming from, are you an epistemological skeptic? Or only a religious skeptic?

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Well it is a hobby of mine to study religion. I am also a critical thinker. At one time, I was a conservative and fundamental Christian. I believed the Bible to be the word of God, and I took most things in the Bible to be literally true and historically accurate accounts. I no longer see the Bible this way.

JonF said:

Also, If there is a God Jfer, can we agree he is unique?

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Well if God is God, and nothing else is God I am sure God is unique.

jfer45 said:

No, not at all.

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No, I do not claim to know if there is or is not an afterlife.

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I know you don’t directly make any claims about the afterlife but your interpretation about the bible is a claim about the afterlife in of it self.

Are you talking about the "giving your heart" to Jesus metaphor? Would not you then have to give your mental assent that there is something more than "head" stuff (i.e. the soul, heart, whole self etc.)

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I’m not big on metaphors but something along those lines. Like I said, head stuff is necessary but not sufficient. Since we are on a metaphor kick, just like flower is needed to bake a cake, other things are needed too. You can’t have a biblical faith in Christ with out a mental assertion, but you also can’t have a biblical faith in Christ with out heart stuff too.

In what context? Do you mean to ask if I believe in holding one accountable for wrongful deeds?

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In all context. Responsibility for ones own personal actions. The problem with the claim that morality is subjective and solely contingent on social conditioning is that it runs into problems with personal responsibility. How can you blame someone for the lack of morality in their actions if morality is bestowed by something other than themselves?

How is it circular? Most Christians covertly believe that sinning as some sort of long-lasting, eternal implication attached to the act. I was merely stating that to the Hewbrews, forgiveness from sin was, for the most part, part of the here and now, part of life.

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Let me rephrase my response a bit, I seem to be having trouble saying exactly what I’m thinking today.

Let me try to explicate your argument:
1. Christianity holds the OT as authoritative.
2. The Jews wrote the OT.
3. When the Ten Commandments were written the Jews had no concept of hell.
-----
C. Thus the Ten Commandments shouldn’t be applied to hell in any manner.

The problem with this is how you apply line #2. You assume since the Jews wrote the OT, the truths contained in the OT are a product of Jewish understanding. This is a form of denying inspiration. In order for the conclusion of this argument to be sound, you need to make this assertion.

Well it is a hobby of mine to study religion. I am also a critical thinker. At one time, I was a conservative and fundamental Christian. I believed the Bible to be the word of God, and I took most things in the Bible to be literally true and historically accurate accounts. I no longer see the Bible this way.

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What about epistemology in general?

Well if God is God, and nothing else is God I am sure God is unique.

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The nothing else is God part is the one im trying to get you to agree too. Can we agree because of the virtues of what it means to be a God, God would have to be unique (notice the capitol G)

JonF said:

I know you don’t directly make any claims about the afterlife but your interpretation about the bible is a claim about the afterlife in of it self.

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What do you mean by "but your interpretation about the bible is a claim about the afterlife in of it self"?

JonF said:

I’m not big on metaphors but something along those lines. Like I said, head stuff is necessary but not sufficient. Since we are on a metaphor kick, just like flower is needed to bake a cake, other things are needed too. You can’t have a biblical faith in Christ with out a mental assertion, but you also can’t have a biblical faith in Christ with out heart stuff too.

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Well, I see the heart stuff in a metaphorical way. I believe that giving ones heart to Jesus means to honor and trust the relationship. It is not so much about believing certain iffy statements to be true.

JonF said:

In all context. Responsibility for ones own personal actions. The problem with the claim that morality is subjective and solely contingent on social conditioning is that it runs into problems with personal responsibility. How can you blame someone for the lack of morality in their actions if morality is bestowed by something other than themselves?

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It is simple. The words good and bad are merely labels humans use to identify what is favorable or not favorable to them. I do not find favor in murdering becaue this would led to a society where I would not be safe; therefore, I believe murder is wrong. I do not find it wrong becaues there is some Moral Law or Code behind it, but because I logically reduce what is good for me, society and others. Some people do not come to the same conclusion and this is why humans have differences in morality.

JonF said:

Let me rephrase my response a bit, I seem to be having trouble saying exactly what I’m thinking today.
Let me try to explicate your argument:
1. Christianity holds the OT as authoritative.
2. The Jews wrote the OT.
3. When the Ten Commandments were written the Jews had no concept of hell.
-----
C. Thus the Ten Commandments shouldn’t be applied to hell in any manner.
The problem with this is how you apply line #2. You assume since the Jews wrote the OT, the truths contained in the OT are a product of Jewish understanding. This is a form of denying inspiration. In order for the conclusion of this argument to be sound, you need to make this assertion.

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Yes, I do deny divine inspiration for the Hebrew Bible. However, I do believe the prophets and people of the Hebrew Bible point to God and indentify what they think God is like. They quite possibly could have experienced God in some way, but obviously there is no way to prove this in the modern sense of proving things.

JonF said:

What about epistemology in general?

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Well, I am skeptical when I believe it is nearly impossible for someone to know what they say they know. That is why, in modern times, fundamental Christians resort to saying "have faith" when challenged with iffy statements about their faith. They believe that the more one believes iffy statements to be true about the Bible, Jesus and God, the stronger and firmer ones faith is.