25 years in Faith Movement:The TRUTH

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SavedByGrace3

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Part of showing love to our children, is playing an active role in disciplining them. Hebrews 12:4-12 tells us that this discipline will be unpleasant, even painful. Hobie, if you want to give a well-rounded view of Scripture, you should not have skipped over these hardships out loving Father gives to us. You should have worked them into your message...

If in fact the Father uses such methods to accomplish His will, then why did not Jesus use them? He is the exact image of the Father and only did what the Father does. When did He ever tell someone to keep their sickness because the Father was using it to chastise them in some way? Beyond that, when did He ever put sickness on someone and tell them it was what the Father wanted for them? If this is a common method that God uses, then in the many many encounters Jesus had with people in the gospels He should have at least run up on a few of these folks. Where are they??? The overwhelming rule of the work, life, and ministry of Jesus is the He healed all. He did so only because it is the will of God that all be healed.

I agree that we need to be well rounded in scripture, but we also have to understand what is "exact image truth" and what is only "shadow truth". Taking vague inferences and circumstances and using them to overrule that which is foundational makes for some confusing and weak doctrine. In the end, we look to Jesus to find the exact image and will of God. When in doubt, look at Him!
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Quaffer,

IOW means In Other Words

you said,

Just a quick note of appreciation for your respectfull response to Hobie.

I believe there is more balance there than can adequately or fully be conveyed on paper. From my own experience I know that sometimes it's difficult to bring about a particular point and not come across as against another.


Well that is why you can post an answer. Hobie has had several posts to answer me, and he might yet. Until then, I agree with you, he seems unbalanced. (-:

Maybe you can explain what he is missing? If so, please do.

 

Thanks Mike,

Sorry if what I said sounded as if I was saying he seems unbalanced. . .I was not.

There are many things I'm chewing on simply because God is working on me in the area of faith in particular.  What Hobie is sharing is helping me to understand a little more of what God wants for me. 

I'm not rich in money and I don't necessarily believe God wants me to be.  However, I am greatly saddened when I see a need in the body of Christ and I am unable to give toward it.  I want to be able to obey God in the area of giving.  If I have only a penny I could at least start with that.

As I have grown in this area of faith, I find the principles work.  Whatever a man sows, he reaps.  Whether it's discord and bitterness or peace and forgiveness.  Whether it's poverty and sickness or prosperity and health.  If the person sows it, they can take it to the bank that they will reap it.

In my case, most of the poverty in my life generated through my family.  They were always poor farmers barely gettin' by and while I'm not a farmer :D  I was still barely gettin' by.  I do not believe God wanted it that way.  It does not bring Him glory to be unable to pay my bills.

I sought Him on the matter.  He showed me the areas where I was making the errors and I made the changes that needed to be made.  And during this I continued to pay tithes and give as I could.  (Giving and tithing are two different things).

Things improved greatly, but I was still far from glorifying God in that area of my life.  I continued to seek God.  What He showed me, not through the teaching of any one in particular, but in prayer and Bible reading on my own, was that my mouth was continuously out of line with His Word.  Such as, I would say "I'm poor"  but God says "He owns the cattle on a thousand hills"  How can I be poor?  Hmm. This was just one of many statements I changed. 

Now there will be some who will scoff at that but scoff away.  I did what God told me to do and things changed. 

In Prov it says, "death and life are in the power of the tongue".  I can speak death to my children, "you idiot, you'll never amount to anything", and I produce a child that believes they are what I said.  Or, I can speak the opposite, and produce the opposite. Throughout the OT this is shown with the blessings. Look at the blessings and curses in the family line of Noah.  Look at what happened to  each of his sons that proved out according to what he spoke.

God has given prosperity to all of us.  Ps 1 says, "and whatsoever he does WILL prosper."  Maybe it's our defination of prosper that needs to change.  I believe we are to prosper in all walks of our life.  2 Cor 9:8 says "in all circumstances and all situations".  I'm not there yet.  But I want to be.

The whole point of prosperity is to not only meet our own needs but the needs of others.  We are to be whole so that we can help others be whole. . . That's in body, soul, and spirit. 

While it's good to save the spirit, it's only 1/3 of what Christ died for.  It's a package deal.  We can choose not to use all the package provides.  It's our choice.  Jesus already paid the price, for the full package.  I personally, don't want to toss any of it to the side. 

Hopefully this helps you some.  I have not been able to completly read through all these pages yet. God has blessed me with an abundance of overtime. :clap:

God bless,

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Very often this faith will say "I believe in God, and I know that whatever happens is for our own good, and we just have to believe...". This faith will attribute evil things like death, sickness, or other tragedies to God, while also attributing good things like healing, prosperity, and baptism in the Holy Spirit to the devil.

My reply,
Who believes and says this rot? I don’t mean that there is not some who are so ignorant of the truth as to believe it, but I have never come across these people.

Hang around these forums long enough and you will. I have had people say that God is directly and personally responsible for the death of their children, that He directed the death of innocent millions, and personally directs wars, abortions, and endless other "rot" as you call it. The discussion usually goes like this:

I suggest to them that we can ask God for anything and that He will do it(like Jesus said in John 14:14).

They retort that to do this is to deny God His sovereignty and amounts to demanding that God do our will. They demand God is "in control of everything" and faith means to accept everything as being His will.

I respond that if God is "in control of everything" to the degree and in the way they suggest, then explain sickness, death, war, abortion, etc... I thought God was love and that He came to save us from these things.

They respond that these things must be the will of God as He is in absolute control of everything at all times. After all (they reason)to be all powerful means that there is no power that exists outside of God and therefore everything that occurs must and can only be His will. Hence (they say)  God is directly and personally responsible for all things, including pain, sorrow, and death. 

 

This is typical of the hole they dig for themselves, and I suspect someone will take this thread there eventually.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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 :angel: Rot . . .that's a perfect word for destructive words.

 

Prov 14:30 A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.

Prov 15:30 The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat.

Prov 16:24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

Prov 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine; but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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You don’t give any guidance from the Word on how to know when the sickness is just a cold, and when it is a result from straying from God.

It really does not matter what the source is. Either way, it is the will of God to heal us from it. If it is the result of sin, there is forgiveness and healing. If it is "just a cold" then He also heals.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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You have slipped into conjecture here. All sin not covered by the blood is sin unto death...

1Jo 5:16 If any one sees a brother man committing a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and God shall give him life--for those who do not sin unto death. There is such a thing as sin unto death; for that I do not bid him make request.
1Jo 5:17 Any kind of wrongdoing is sin; but there is sin which is not unto death.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The will of God varies for each child relative to their need and His plan.

And this of course is where we differ. I firmly believe that God deals with us according to covenant promises... and not on a "one to one" basis. The will of God as to health and prosperity are set just as His will concerning salvation is set. He is not sitting in heaven deciding who will be healed and who will not, what prayers will be answered and which ones will not, and who will be saved and who will not. He has already said yes to all these things and all we need do is believe. In fact if you do not know for sure it is His will that you receive, be healed, or be saved, then you cannot believe that He will do it. You can only believe if you know it is His will. Anything less is only hope.

1Jo 5:
14  And we have an assured confidence that whenever we ask anything in accordance with His will, He listens to us.
15  And since we know that He listens to us, then whatever we ask, we know that we have the things which we have asked from Him.


 
 
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Andrew

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quote: "In order to have faith you have to know absolutely that it is the will of God for you to receive"

I agree, but be ready for a no then. I would say that you go to the extreme hobart and tell God what to do."
--------------------
you still dont see the point Louis. God's will IS revealed in his Word. eg his will regarding healing is YES I WILL HEAL. And his Word does not change from case to case, leading to yes or no answers for different individuals. The Bible says that all the promises of God are YES and AMEN in Christ Jesus. We find out what these promises us, then we appropriate them by faith.

Hobart is not telling God what to do, but simply agreeing with God what He has said in his Word.

eg God says I AM the Lord who heals you. We say Amen.
God says By the stripes of Jesus you were healed! We say Amen!
God says "Surely he (Jesus) has born your sicknesses and pains." We say Amen!

How in the world does that constitute "telling God what to do"???
 
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SavedByGrace3

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"In order to have faith you have to know absolutely that it is the will of God for you to receive"

I agree, but be ready for a no then. I would say that you go to the extreme hobart and tell God what to do.

Thanks for the comment Louis.

But this is why many fail to receive. They do not receive because they do not(cannot) believe.

They do not(cannot) believe because they do not know for certain that the answer is yes.

These clear and simple statements of Jesus have been reasonsed away:

Joh 14:
12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
13  And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14  If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do.


Joh 15:
7  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


Mat 7:
7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8  for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9  Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone;
10  or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


Mat 21:
21  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do what is done to the fig tree, but even if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou taken up and cast into the sea, it shall be done.
22  And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.



This is not deep theology. He never intended for you to have to be a theologian or a Bible scholar in order to have faith. This is key! In fact He intends for us to have faith as a little child has faith. Just accept what it says and believe it because of Who is saying it. Love believes all things. (1 Cor 13) Faith is energized by love.(Gal 5:6). If you love, faith and belief come automatically. Faith comes not because of our abilities, decisions, or efforts: it comes because of the integrity of the one who is speaking. It is no longer in our hands. If He said it, we have no choice but to believe. You have to accept it. It is rebellion to deny. If He says I am healed, it is rebellion for me to deny it. It is true if we believe it or not. It is settled in heaven and has been since the passion of our Lord. He sent His word and healed me!
 
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SavedByGrace3

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You don’t want to think it would be His will that some might be given over to Satan and their body destroyed so that in the end they might find Him.
opps... you must have misread me. I am the one who was pointing this out in 1 Cor 5. (that one might in fact be delivered over to satan for the destruction of the flesh).
Point is.... the thing to do in that circumstance is to repent, get forgiven, and be healed. It is not the will of God that you sin, be sick, die young, or be damned. It is unfortunate that these things happen. But none of them are in the ultimate will of God for us. He did not create us and put us here to have to endure these things. The fact that He heals, saves, delivers, and answers prayers is ample proof that He wants us to be healthy and prosperous. If suffering, poverty, sickness, or death had any benefit for us in our relationship with God, then why are we not told to seek these things? Where did Jesus, Paul, or any of the apostles tell us to go and be sick or die so that our relationship with Him would improve? They did not.

Our relationship with God is established, sanctified, and perfected by and only by the work of Jesus.

This, in my mind, is the most important difference between what is commonly called the "Faith movement" and common Christianity. The Faith movement says to look to Jesus and His Word, whereas many(not all) "orthodox" churches think our suffering adds to what Jesus did on the cross and improves our standing with God or spirituality in some way. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. There is no suffering or poverty that you will endure that will improve your standing with God one iota. The maturity and your spiritual life is not improved or increased one bit by suffering or sickness. Your spiritual life is matured by your faith/love relationship with the Father, and that is established and perfected by Jesus. Not our efforts, but His.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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You assume that the goodness and integrity of God is wrapped up in what you would rather have, and not in what you are getting. And why? Because you assume God wants to give you what you want. But parents don’t give their children whatever the child thinks is right.

I don't recall the word want entering the discussion. But the fact is, if you can believe for something you 'want' you can have it. The key is: can you believe for it? If you know that it is the will God for you to have something, then you have every right to believe for it.

We are only limited by what we can believe for. What limits our faith? Faith is of the heart and is energized by love. Love believes. Love does not desire evil things so you cannot believe for evil things. Love does not believe for sin, or other things that are in the world. Since you cannot believe for these things, you cannot pray for them from your spirit.

What things are "of the world"?
Simple:

1Jo 2:
16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


You cannot ask for these things because they are not of the Father, and therefore not of the spirit that He has birthed into you. What can you believe for? A simple test is the "what is good and a blessing for my neighbor?" test.

For example: Jesus said to love thy neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them do to you. This is love at it's most basic level. If you would pray something for your neighbor out of love for him, then you could also pray for the same kind of thing... else you are not loving your neighbor as you are yourself. Not that I desire in my heart for the same things as my neighbor... but the principle is the same. You can ask for whatever you can believe for, and love is the determining factor in what you believe.

 

 

 
 
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SavedByGrace3

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But if the verse from Isaiah 53 means we are healed spiritually by His stripes and you think it means physically, then you do err from the Word. False confession of the Word is to no benefit. So I agree that we remain faithful to what the Word of God says, but I disagree with your interp, which is why I am here
And we enjoy having you!

But the concept of "spiritual healing" is found nowhere in the scripture. Jesus never healed anyone's spirit, and there is no indication that there is such a thing as sprirtual disease or sickness. The only time I have ever heard of "spritual healing" is in the new age movement, which is occult and wrong. God deals with our spirit by completely doing away with it and then recreating it after His image.

2 cor 5:17
(LITV) So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!


We are born again, not "spiritaully healed." The condition of the unregenerate spirit is incurable(it cannot be healed).

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is incurable; who can know it?

One cannot cure or heal a death spirit. A spirit can no more be healed than a leopard change it's spots.

Jer 13:23 
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.


We must be born again, not "spiritually healed."

Jn 3:7
(Webster)  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again.
 
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LouisBooth

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"his will regarding healing is YES I WILL HEAL. "

That's a "lie straight from the pits of hell". He doesn't always heal, I've explained that to you and shown it to you biblically.

Holbert, I agree we are to come before God assuridly, but I would rather come before him with reverance and not being demanding of him like you advocate.
 
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LouisBooth

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"But the concept of "spiritual healing" is found nowhere in the scripture. "

Are you seriuos? What do you think forgiving sins is all about. He did that and heals the man's spirit whose friends dropped him down, THEN as proof that he did it he healed him physically. Not the other way around. Oh boy oh boy, you're way off on this one.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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In fact, it is a profession of faith to trust God through good and bad.

I know what you are saying friend because I thought this way for the first few years of my Christian life. This is good in that it is certainly better than cursing God... but I have to ask who is receiving glory in it: God or man? One might say that the man is because he is in essence saying:
"look at me... look how faithful I am and how much I love God! I am suffering for God and am a good and faithful undergoer."

In my mind, this glorifies the man and his efforts to endure rather than God and His power to overcome. God wants us to be overcomers :clap: , not undergoers :cry: . 

Jesus wants us to ask and receive so that the Father be glorified.

Joh 14:
12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
13  And whatever any of you ask in my name, I will do, in order that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14  If you make any request of me in my name, I will do it.


I do not see where He said for us to suffer in religious devotional silence. That does not glorify God. I would rather do it His way, give Him the glory, and push all this religious stuff aside!
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Are you seriuos? What do you think forgiving sins is all about. He did that and heals the man's spirit whose friends dropped him down, THEN as proof that he did it he healed him physically. Not the other way around. Oh boy oh boy, you're way off on this one.
Sins are forgiven, bodies are healed. It does not say He healed the man's sins any more than He forgave his sickness. Again and again in scripture the distinction is made between healing and forgiveness.

Jam 5
15 and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working. .


Beyond that: 
the body is parallel to spirit, and
healing is parallell to forgiveness.
Bodies are healed of sicknesses.
But spirits are not forgiven. Sins are forgiven. Sickness is the condition of in body and it is the body that is healed, not the sickness. To compare healing and forgiveness is comparing apples and bowling. They are not even in the same category.
A sin is an action that needs to be forgiven.
A body is a thing needs to be healed.
There is simply no logical comparison between the two that one could use to combine or interchange them. It is true as we saw above that once sins are forgiven, then bodies can be healed. Sickness may be the result of sins commited. This fact just further proves the difference between the two. Once sins are forgiven(not spirits healed), then bodies can be healed. 


We are simply not healed of sins any more than we are forgiven of sicknesses. It simple does not make sense.

 
 
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LouisBooth

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"Sins are forgiven, sickness is healed. "

So we are nit picking now? Never does Christ say to people, you're saved, or salvation has come to you. He says, your sins are forgiven and go and sin no more..... In that passage he is refering to PHYSICAL healing, not spiritual healing. If you don't think spiritual healing happens, you're not lining up with the bible.
 
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Didaskomenos

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No "spiritual healing" in the Bible? 

Actually, the James 5 passage is a great example of "spiritual healing" being misinterpreted as primarily physical healing.  The word most people translate "sick" in this passage is actually the word "weary" (I can't imagine why).  There is another Greek word for "sick," and it's not used here.  Besides, the beginning of the passage makes it clear that James' concern is for those whose circumstance are bearing them down.  See:

James 5
13 Is any one of you in trouble?  He should pray.  Is anyone happy?  Let him sing songs of praise.
14 Is any one of you weary?  He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer offered in faith will deliver [lit. "save"] the weary one; the Lord will raise him up.  If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
(where this differs from the NIV, it is my own translation from the Greek)

Now, granted, one of the things that make people's spirits weary is physical sickness.  However, there are obviously issues of sin involved - cluing us in that James is referring to moral/spiritual problems that sometimes include physical problems, not just physical ones.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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If you don't think spiritual healing happens, you're not lining up with the bible.
I am presenting scripture after scripture...
Scripture is Bible/
 
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