Isreal = The Church ?

There isn't. But then I live and work with Arabs every day of the week so just perhaps I'm biased.

karen freeinchristman said:

What is the opinion around here regarding whether or not there is a theologically important reason to help Israel keep its land? (This question isn't only asked of Contra, it's just that his post sparked it.)

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For the Christian, there is no theological reason for Israel to keep the land, but they have it (some of it) now and God seems to be happy with them to keep it until His return. It's His business.

To the devout Jew, there is a theological reason to be back in the Holy Land- it belongs to Israel.

There are Christians that believe the return of Israel to the Holy Land is a fulfillment of prophecy, and that this event marks accelerates events leading up to the return of Christ.

SirTimothy said:

There isn't. But then I live and work with Arabs every day of the week so just perhaps I'm biased.

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Yep, they will give you their own opinion about things, that's for sure. I personally think they're badly educated on the history of the matter though.

I guess I'd have to ask what you mean by "theologically important".

When you get into questions of land ownership, or right to land its very hard to come up with a just standard. Particularly with that land.. it has been held by so many people down through history.. who is to say which ones have the right to it? Before the Israelites, it was canaanite tribes, after the Israelites it was philistines, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Christians, Turks, Arabs, now Jews.

This is where the saying "posession is 9 10ths of the law" comes in... with land there almost is no such thing as "justice" its just a matter of who holds it, and who can keep it.


In the case of "the Holy Land" however, there is something special. This land is the one land in the whole world that God claimed belonged to him.
Christians often say God gave the land to the jews.. this is only partially true. If you read closely God said the land was his, and the Jews were tenants and care takers of the land.

Is it not ironic that this land which has for the better part of 4000 years been a barren rocky strip of land with little natural value has been perhaps the most fought over peice of land in the world.. in history. Could this be because it is the only peice of land which God claimed for himself?? The tithe of creation as it were.

The question of wether Israel has a right to the land hinges on wether you believe God honors his promises or not. If you believe that God can revoke a promise because of infidelity.. then its possible that Israel has no more right than anyone else... if, however, you believe that God's promises are eternal and not dependant on human fidelity (as I do) then I think you have to believe that Israel has a right to the land. Not because they own it.. but because God promised it to them to use and inhabit.

Cromwe11 said:

In the case of "the Holy Land" however, there is something special. This land is the one land in the whole world that God claimed belonged to him.
Christians often say God gave the land to the jews.. this is only partially true. If you read closely God said the land was his, and the Jews were tenants and care takers of the land.

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Interesting!

Is it not ironic that this land which has for the better part of 4000 years been a barren rocky strip of land with little natural value has been perhaps the most fought over peice of land in the world.. in history. Could this be because it is the only peice of land which God claimed for himself?? The tithe of creation as it were.

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I have read that some parts of Israel are extremely fertile and diverse in flora.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Daniel 11:40 "At the time of the end, the king of the South will engage him in battle, but the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. He will invade countries and sweep through them like a flood."

Daniel 11:10 "His sons will mobilize for war and assemble a large number of armed forces. They will advance, sweeping through like a flood, and will again wage war as far as his fortress."

Daniel 11:26 "Those who eat his provisions will destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall slain."

Here's what it's all leading up to when the Spiritual Israelites are attacked worldwide:

Zechariah 9:14 "Then the LORD will appear over them, and His arrow will fly like lightning. The Lord GOD will sound the trumpet and advance with the southern storms."

The Cherubs direct involvement of those with negative energy, to bring terror upon them:

Psalm 83:15 "so pursue them with Your tempest and terrify them with Your storm."

The Cherubs physical involvement in the actual slaying of the masses in opposition of Christ's Kingdom once the pawns have done their part in setting the stage leading up to Armageddon:

Jeremiah 25:31, 32, 33 ""The tumult reaches to the ends of the earth because the LORD brings a case against the nations He enters into judgment with all flesh. As for the wicked, He hands them over to the sword -- [This is] the LORD's declaration."This is what the LORD of Hosts says: Pay attention! Disaster goes forth from nation to nation. A great storm is stirred up from the ends of the earth." Those slain by the LORD on that day will be [spread] from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned,gathered, or buried. They will be like manure on the surface of the ground."

This will be in fulfillment of Revelation 14:19, 20 "So the angel swung his sickle toward earth and gathered the grapes from earth's vineyard, and he threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses' bridles for about 180 miles."

A message to Christ's Ministers:

Jeremiah 25:30 ""As for you, you are to prophesy all these things to them, and say to them: The LORD roars from on high; He raises His voice from His holy dwelling. He roars loudly over His grazing land; He calls out with a shout, like those who tread [grapes], against all the inhabitants of the earth."

Christ's warning about the time of the end:

Matthew 24:3, 4, 7, 8 "While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age? Then Jesus replied to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these events are the beginning of birth pains."

A warning to the masses and Satan and his troops (both demonic and mortal) of this planet, from the Cherubic Order:

Ezekiel 38:18-22 "Now on that day, the day when Gog comes against the land of Israel"[this is] the declaration of the Lord GOD "My wrath will flare up. I swear in My zeal and fiery rage: On that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals of the field, every creature that crawls on the ground, and every human being on the face of the earth will tremble before Me. The mountains will be thrown down, the cliffs will collapse, and every wall will fall to the ground. I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains"the declaration of the Lord GOD "and every man's sword will be against his brother. I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed. I will pour out torrential rain, hailstones, fire, and brimstone on him, as well as his troops and the many peoples who are with him."

If you want to survive, make positive energy your spiritual makeup:

Romans 13:12 "The night is nearly over, and the daylight is near, so let us discard the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light."

Is Yahweh slow respecting his promise?

2 Peter 3:9, 15 "The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. Also, regard the patience of our Lord as [an opportunity for] salvation, just as our dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you." But even Yahweh has His limits on remaining patient. The hourglass is nearly empty. The opportune time is nearing its end. It has now been 6,000 years with Dawn on the loose, and Mankind following his every lead.

Time frame to Yahweh - His conception of time is different from us mortals. Don't let this fact escape your notice:

2 Peter 3:9 "Dear friends, don't let this one thing escape you: with the Lord one day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years like one day."

Psalm 90:4 "For in Your sight a thousand years are like yesterday that passes by, like a few hours of the night."

Know that you're living in the last days. NOW is the time to straighten out your hearts:

2 Timothy 3:1-5 "But know this: difficult times will come in the last days. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the form of religion but denying its power. Avoid these people!"

Words to those of a positive energy:

Proverbs 11:4-6 "Wealth is not profitable on a day of wrath, but righteousness rescues from death. The righteousness of the blameless clears his path, but the wicked person will fall because of his wickedness. The righteousness of the upright rescues them, but the treacherous are trapped by their own desires."

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hezbollah's war flag is emblazened with an AK-47 rifle. They consider themselves the saviors - warriors of their cause. They fight carnal warfare, just like the Cherubs fight spiritual warfare - therefore, they mistakenly believe themselves to be warriors of their false god. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yahweh has done this to their minds:

2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11 "and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. [They perish] because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, "[/FONT]

Thanks for your contribution, Emeth. Welcome to Christian Forums!

I find your post about the Cherubs and positive/negative energy very interesting. I can't find fault with it, although I wonder - where have you found your information about what Cherubs do?

karen freeinchristman said:

I have read that some parts of Israel are extremely fertile and diverse in flora.

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This is the case today, but it is a fairly recent development, do entirely to the ingenuity and industry of the Israelis.

They have done remarkable things with the land there. Including pioneering technology in desalination of water to use for irrigation, and methods of irrigation itself.
During the reign of the Ottoman Turkish empire one of the ways in which taxes were assessed was by the number of trees on a person's land. The result in Israel was that the land was almost entirely deforested during this period to avoid paying more taxes.

Since the rebirth of Israel in 1948 the Israeli's have been working hard to rehabilitate the land and they have succeeded. Not only is there much more vegitation, and much greater variety etc, but it has begun to affect the environment even in areas which are not actively irrigated etc.

One of my family recently went to Israel and spent a good deal of time in the south near the dead sea in the negev. He reported that it was quite amazing.. all across the desert there were growths of shrubs and bushes etc, even those arid regions were experiencing vegitation.. but the really amazing thing was that it ceased instantly at the border. On the Israeli side there was growth, on the egyptian side nothing but sand.
He even showed me a satalite map he had purchased and it was amazing, you could literally see the borders of israel plain as day on the satalite imagery because the land was darker due to vegitation while the land all around was utterly barren.

Cromwe11 said:

This is the case today, but it is a fairly recent development, do entirely to the ingenuity and industry of the Israelis.

They have done remarkable things with the land there. Including pioneering technology in desalination of water to use for irrigation, and methods of irrigation itself.
During the reign of the Ottoman Turkish empire one of the ways in which taxes were assessed was by the number of trees on a person's land. The result in Israel was that the land was almost entirely deforested during this period to avoid paying more taxes.

Since the rebirth of Israel in 1948 the Israeli's have been working hard to rehabilitate the land and they have succeeded. Not only is there much more vegitation, and much greater variety etc, but it has begun to affect the environment even in areas which are not actively irrigated etc.

One of my family recently went to Israel and spent a good deal of time in the south near the dead sea in the negev. He reported that it was quite amazing.. all across the desert there were growths of shrubs and bushes etc, even those arid regions were experiencing vegitation.. but the really amazing thing was that it ceased instantly at the border. On the Israeli side there was growth, on the egyptian side nothing but sand.
He even showed me a satalite map he had purchased and it was amazing, you could literally see the borders of israel plain as day on the satalite imagery because the land was darker due to vegitation while the land all around was utterly barren.

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Very informative. Thanks.

The doctrine that says the Church replaced Israel ("replacement theology") is of the Devil.

However, when one has swallowed all the doctrines of the Reformers and some of the Fathers in total it is almost impossible to read the scriptures without adopting their interpretation of them.

Simply put, replacement theology is simply a way of saying God doesn't have lasting covenants and doesn't mean what He says.

I don't have the time or inclination to explain this- but let me just say that it took me years of research and prayer to come to the conclusion that on this one topic- the Reformers were wrong and so were their teachers.

Read Romans 9-11 with the eyes of its author and audience, and you'll soon see that Israel has a place today.

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Which reformers said the Church replaced Israel? Who were their teachers who were also wrong? Did the reformers say that the Church came into existence after Israel? So that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not in the Church? Who was the reformers' teacher if it was not Augustine? Augustine makes no distinction between Israel and the Church, and if there is no distinction, there is no replacement.

Read Romans 9-11 and see that Israel has a place today? The reformers did and saw this. They saw both Israels:
-Israel the visible bearer of the promises of God, just as visibly rejecting these promises (especially in the institution of the Roman Catholic church)
-Israel the remnant, elect unto a faith which is never a posessed work but a matter of grace (especially in the doctrine of justification by faith)

I just heard that the prime minister of Lebanon is requesting that the other Islamic nations help them to stop "Israeli Terrorism". We may soon be called to help our ally Israel. Whether there is a Theological reason or not, we may soon have to decide if there is a good political reason.

Yeah jtb, that is kinda of depressing.

The old saying coined by some "alternative" thinker goes "a terrorist is someone with a bomb but not an air force". However, I think that is rubbish.

The problem as I see is that the term "terrorist" has become hackneyed and is thrown around far too easily. The ill-educated masses north and east of Israel throw it around in much the same manner as one would expect elementary school children to when engaged in "name calling". In other words, it lacks real substance but it will do for the sake of argument.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say on this thread. I've been trying my darndest not to get involved in CF during this period because I feel there are really too few friends for me here on this topic.

ContraMundum said:

Yeah jtb, that is kinda of depressing.

The old saying coined by some "alternative" thinker goes "a terrorist is someone with a bomb but not an air force". However, I think that is rubbish.

The problem as I see is that the term "terrorist" has become hackneyed and is thrown around far too easily. The ill-educated masses north and east of Israel throw it around in much the same manner as one would expect elementary school children to when engaged in "name calling". In other words, it lacks real substance but it will do for the sake of argument.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say on this thread. I've been trying my darndest not to get involved in CF during this period because I feel there are really too few friends for me here on this topic.

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PM me I would be interested in your thoughts.

Of course, what Israel is doing /is/ terrorism in the eyes of the Arab world, as it's no worse than what any Arab has done to Israel.

SirTimothy said:

Of course, what Israel is doing /is/ terrorism in the eyes of the Arab world, as it's no worse than what any Arab has done to Israel.

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I think people confuse terror and terrifying things like conventional warfare with terrorism, which I consider a methodology and philosophy that conducts a different kind of war.

...but that's just my point of view.

jtbdad said:

I just heard that the prime minister of Lebanon is requesting that the other Islamic nations help them to stop "Israeli Terrorism". We may soon be called to help our ally Israel. Whether there is a Theological reason or not, we may soon have to decide if there is a good political reason.

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Let's see - Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East is it not? That is reason enough. Not to mention we have been ally's with them for decades. When you have regimes like Iran, etc calling for a "cleansing" - I think that's pretty darn scary. We have some little Hitlers in that area that aren't only after our Jewish allies - they're after any Christianized country that promotes liberty and freedom (even socialist countries).

I don't believe in the whole re-established Israel for Christ to return - but I do believe we need to protect/help out a sovereign democratic nation that is surround by and being attacked by Islamo-fascists. And if indeed this is Armageddon - then so be it - what a glorious time for His return!

Let's see - Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East is it not?

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No. Lebanon is also. Iraq was until America decided that they wanted someone american-friendly in there and stuck Saddam in place. Democratic doesn't necessarily mean pro-american.

We have some little Hitlers in that area that aren't only after our Jewish allies - they're after any Christianized country that promotes liberty and freedom (even socialist countries).

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Are you saying that socialist countries aren't promoting of liberty and freedom? If so that's one of the stupidest things I've heard all week.

I don't believe in the whole re-established Israel for Christ to return - but I do believe we need to protect/help out a sovereign democratic nation that is surround by and being attacked by Islamo-fascists.

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Most Arabs are not islamo-fascists. However both Israel and America's actions of late have on the whole tended to encourage and strengthen those tendencies amongst the arab nations.

Timothy

I agree Aymn, and what's more I think people need to think about whose side they are on.

Quite firmly on the side of the underdog--that's the Arabic people I'm afraid. Until Israel gets of it's high horse of supremacy, I'm afraid I'm not real interested in giving them the time of day.

Timothy

Aymn27 said:

Let's see - Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East is it not? That is reason enough. Not to mention we have been ally's with them for decades. When you have regimes like Iran, etc calling for a "cleansing" - I think that's pretty darn scary. We have some little Hitlers in that area that aren't only after our Jewish allies - they're after any Christianized country that promotes liberty and freedom (even socialist countries).

I don't believe in the whole re-established Israel for Christ to return - but I do believe we need to protect/help out a sovereign democratic nation that is surround by and being attacked by Islamo-fascists. And if indeed this is Armageddon - then so be it - what a glorious time for His return!

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I didn't say there wasn't I just said we may need to decide if there was.