The Jews and Psalm 22 question

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LittleLambofJesus

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Taken from another board thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3202647-questions-on-psalm-22.html

"To understand the extent and the manner in which the church tampered with the Jewish scriptures, let's examine the verse that you insist "proves" that Jesus is the messiah. Psalm 22:16 in the King James Version (KJV) reads,
Dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet.
It isn't difficult to understand why Christians are so confident that this verse contains a clear reference to Jesus' crucifixion. Of whom, missionaries ask, other than Jesus, could the Psalmist be speaking? To which other individual in history, whose hands and feet were pierced, could the Bible be referring?

To understand how Christian translators rewrote the words of King David, let's examine the original Hebrew words of this verse with a proper translation.


Dogs have encompassed me.

A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they
are at my hands and my feet.
I would like to ask the jews if this is indeed the correct translation of Pslam 22 and if so, then I will be that much closer in harmonizing the book of Revelation with the OT and the NT Christ. Thanks and peace.

Dogs have encompassed me.
A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a LION, [[SIZE=+2] 03738 karah [/SIZE][SIZE=+2] 0738 'ariy ] [/SIZE]they
are at my hands and my feet.
Zephaniah 3:1 Woe to her who is rebellious and polluted, To the oppressing city! 2 She has not obeyed [His] voice, She has not received correction; She has not trusted in the LORD, She has not drawn near to her God. 3 Her princes in her midst [are] roaring LIONS; [[SIZE=+2] 0738 'ariy][/SIZE] Her judges [are] evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning. 4 Her prophets are insolent, treacherous people; Her priests have polluted the sanctuary
There are 2 different greek words used for "pierce" in the NT.

(Young) John 19:34 but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce [#3572] his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water; 3572 nusso
(NKJV) Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye [#3788] will see [#3700] Him, even they who pierced [#1574] Him. And all the tribes of the land will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

ekkenteo (Strong's 1574) occurs 2 times in 2 verses:

(NKJV) John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced [#1574]."
 

muffler dragon

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Psalm 22

1. For the conductor, on the ayeleth hashachar, a song of David.
2. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.
3. My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent.
4. But You are holy; You await the praises of Israel.
5. Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them.
6. They cried out to You and they escaped; they trusted in You and they were not shamed.
7. But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples.
8. All who see me will mock me; they will open their lips, they will shake their head.
9. One should cast his trust upon the Lord, and He will rescue him; He will save him because He delights in him.
10. For You drew me from the womb; You made me secure on my mother's breasts.
11. Upon You, I was cast from birth; from my mother's womb You are my God.
12. Do not distance Yourself from me, for distress is near; for there is none to help.
13. Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.
14. They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion.
15. I was spilled like water, and all my bones were separated; my heart was like wax, melting within my innards.
16. My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.
17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.
18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me.
19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.
20. But You, O Lord, do not distance Yourself; my strength, hasten to my assistance.
21. Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog.
22. Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.
23. I will tell Your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You.
24. You who fear the Lord, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, honor Him, and fear Him, all the seed of Israel.
25. For He has neither despised nor abhorred the cry of the poor, neither has He hidden His countenance from him; and when he cried out to Him, He hearkened.
26. Because of You is my praise in the great congregation; I pay my vows in the presence of those who fear Him.
27. The humble shall eat and be sated; they shall praise the Lord, those who seek him; your hearts shall live forever.
28. All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You.
29. For the kingship is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations.
30. They shall eat all the best of the earth and prostrate themselves; before Him shall all those who descend to the dust kneel, and He will not quicken his soul.
31. The seed that worships Him; it shall be told to the generation concerning the Lord.
32. They shall come and tell His righteousness to the newborn people, that which He has done.

In your "harmonization" of Revelation with the Tanakh, I would point you towards verse 6. Apparently, your "christ" is a worm, and not a man. Or are you just being selective with what verses you pick out of context?
 
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peepnklown

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arunma said:
are you asking Jews about the meaning of a Christian Scripture

May be he wants a perspective outside the box?
I mean…why ask a Christian about the meanings of a Jewish Scripture, eh?

Lamb said:

It doesn’t have ‘pierced’ in the text…so why harmonize something that doesn’t go together?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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peepnklown said:
May be he wants a perspective outside the box?
I mean…why ask a Christian about the meanings of a Jewish Scripture, eh?
It doesn’t have ‘pierced’ in the text…so why harmonize something that doesn’t go together?
Hi peep. Most christians do not even attempt to accurately translate the symbolic/metaphorical NT scriptures, and even I can agree on some of the Jewish translations of the OT, as long as I can harmonize them to Daniel and Revelation. Most christians are still awaiting a "physcal" return of Jesus and a "physcial" reign of HIM on earth for a 1000yr period, which is unscriptural in my view.

Can you give your view of my post # 1. Thanks.
 
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peepnklown

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Lamb said:
Can you give your view of my post #1

I have said this before…Psalms 22 doesn’t have the word ‘pierced’ in the text…so I don’t see how you are going to ‘harmonize’ your text.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Zephaniah 3:1 Woe to her who is rebellious and polluted, To the oppressing city! 2 She has not obeyed [His] voice, She has not received correction; She has not trusted in the LORD, She has not drawn near to her God. 3 Her princes in her midst [are] roaring LIONS; [[SIZE=+2] 0738 'ariy][/SIZE] Her judges [are] evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning. 4 Her prophets are insolent, treacherous people; Her priests have polluted the sanctuary

(NKJV) Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye [#3788] will see [#3700] Him, even they who pierced [#1574] Him. And all the tribes of the land will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

ekkenteo (Strong's 1574) occurs 2 times in 2 verses:

(NKJV) John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced [#1574]."
peepnklown said:
[/color]
I have said this before…Psalms 22 doesn’t have the word ‘pierced’ in the text…so I don’t see how you are going to ‘harmonize’ your text.
I had this posted in another thread but would like to put it here as it ties into the reign of David I believe.

How do the Jews view the "Lord" and the Temple in Malachi 3 for example? . [Provided it ever existed in the first place]. Thoughts? Peace and Shalom.

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. Y@hovah said to my Lord [ 0113 'adown], "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

(Young) Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple Doth the Lord [0113 'adown] whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Y@hovah [#03068] of Hosts.
Matthew 21:12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.
 
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ChavaK

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arunma said:
LLJ, I've never quite understood your motives. Why, again, are you asking Jews about the meaning of a Christian Scripture?

That's strange- I thought Tehillim (Psalms) is part of the Hebrew bible (Tanach):)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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ChavaK said:
That's strange- I thought Tehillim (Psalms) is part of the Hebrew bible (Tanach):)
I guess I am a Hebrew Christian then [might be of the Tribe of Dan, but not sure], just not a Jewish Hebrew of Judah. :wave:

Jeremiah 31:31 Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have CUT with the house of Israel And with the house of Judah a new [#02319 chadash] covenant,

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating new [#02319 chadash] heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.
 
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arunma

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muffler dragon said:
ChavaK:

It's all a part of arunma's perspective. You'll get used to it over time. ;)

Well, to be fair, many of the Jews on this forum go so far as to approve of my perspective. After all, it does give me the ability to appreciate Judaism on its own merits, apart from the various fundamentalist Christian end-time theories that are floating around. Nonetheless, I suppose I should elaborate for our new Jewish friend.

ChavaK said:
That's strange- I thought Tehillim (Psalms) is part of the Hebrew bible (Tanach):)

Please allow me to explain my views on the relationship between Christianity and Judaism in a nutshell: I recognize no such relationship. It is my belief that Christianity and Judaism are two entirely separate religions which recognize two separate deities. The God recognized in Christianity is our blessed and holy Trinity. The god of Judaism is a deity with characteristics very different from the God of the Christians. It so happens that Christians and Jews have some common Scripture (namely the Old Testament/Tanakh). But this problem is largely nullified by the fact that we have such vast differences in interpretation of that Scripture. For the purposes of Christianity, I consider the Old Testament to be an exclusively Christian Scripture which exists to testify about Christ Jesus and his church (which is identical to Israel as described in the Old Testament). I consider such men as Moses, Samuel, and King David to be Christians, because they looked forward to the coming of Chris. This is why I refer to the Psalms as Christian Scripture.

I realize this is a very brief explanation to a theology that should probably be described in more detail. But does this help to clarify?
 
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muffler dragon

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arunma said:
Well, to be fair, many of the Jews on this forum go so far as to approve of my perspective. After all, it does give me the ability to appreciate Judaism on its own merits, apart from the various fundamentalist Christian end-time theories that are floating around. Nonetheless, I suppose I should elaborate for our new Jewish friend.

For the record, I wasn't being derogatory. It was a statement of fact. I meant no disrespect.
 
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arunma

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muffler dragon said:
For the record, I wasn't being derogatory. It was a statement of fact. I meant no disrespect.

I think it is I who owe you the apology. I didn't detect any disrespect in your last post, but I'm sorry if I conveyed otherwise.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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ChavaK said:
That's strange- I thought Tehillim (Psalms) is part of the Hebrew bible (Tanach):)
Yes, and we do thank the Hebrews for bringing us Christians the OT/OC, otherwise, it would have been impossible to interpret Daniel and Revelation.

Question. Is the Temple mentioned in Malachi 3 the same one that the Lord Jesus came to in the NT and the one mentioned in Daniel 9, or is this a "Future" jewish temple? Thoughts?
(Young) Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto His temple Doth the Lord [0113 'adown] whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Y@hovah [#03068] of Hosts.
Daniel 9:24 70 7's, he is decreeing [#2852] on your people and your holy city, to shut up[#03607] the transgression[#06588] and finish[#08552] sealing[#02856] up sin["02403] and to atone/cover[#03722] over iniquity[#05771] and come into/enter[#0395] in righteousness[#06664] of eons[#05769] and to seal up[#02856] vision[#02377] and prophet[#05030] and to annoint[#04886] holy[#06944] holy ones[#06944] .
Daniel 9:25 and you shall know and you shall be intelligent/wise[#07919] from going forth of [a ] word to turn back/return [#07725] and to build up [#01129] Jerusalem until an annointed one [#04899], a prince/ruler [#05057] Dan 11:22]], 7 7's, and 60 and 2 7's, she shall return and she is built broad place/square and sharp/gold/diligent and in distress/constraint of the times.
 
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Question: Both Matthew (27:46) and Mark (15:34) use Psalms 22:2: "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" as the last words spoken by Jesus from the cross. Why should Jesus have thought himself as separated from God at the very moment when, according to Christian theology, he was fulfilling God's plan?

Answer: It is certainly questionable why the Jesus of Christian theology should have expressed this sentiment. Luke and John omit this cry in their crucifixion accounts, and instead, imply that Jesus himself was in complete control of the event. According to Luke, the Final cry of Jesus was: "Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46), words taken from Psalms 31:46. John also views the crucifixion not as an abandonment by God, but as the conclusion of Jesus' divine mission, in which he peacefully surrenders his soul to God: "He bowed his head and gave up his spirit" (John 19:30).

Some Christian commentators explain Jesus' feeling of abandonment, as recorded by Matthew and Mark, by claiming that he had in mind, not only the despairing words of verse 2, but also the trusting words with which this psalm ends. But this is conjecture on their part. What matters is that Jesus made use only of the opening words of the psalm, expressing despair, and failed to continue with the concluding words of the psalm, which are expressive of hope and trust in God.

Are we to believe that Jesus, who is supposed to be God's equal, and His only begotten son, fell into deep depression and anguish because God refused to help him in his hour of need? Wasn't his death essential for the reason Jesus supposedly became incarnate? Why should he offer prayers to be saved from a fate that he is knowingly supposed to endure in order to redeem mankind from the power of sin? How could Jesus have entertained the thought that God forsook him? If Jesus is who Christianity claims him to be then he knew that by his death mankind was given the only means of attaining salvation. If, as the Gospels assume, Jesus knew and predicted long in advance the events surrounding his death, and if these events were neither a surprise nor a defeat, but a working out of a divinely designed plan, what sense does it make for Jesus to complain: "My god, my God, why have You forsaken me?"

Earlier, in Gethsemane, Jesus is alleged to have prayed that God should spare him from having to undergo his bitter fate. However, Jesus added that not his will, but God's will, should be done (Matthew 26:36-45, Mark 14:32-41, Luke 22:41-44). Why did Jesus give vent to feelings of despair and failure while supposedly knowing that he was really acting out a preordained cosmic plan? It is said that he knew what was to occur: "From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day" (Matthew 16:21; Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22); and "After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said: 'I am thirsty'" (John 19:28).

On the one hand, did Jesus have foreknowledge of events as the evangelists claim? On the other hand, in those last agonizing minutes on the cross, did he truly feel personally abandoned, his mission coming to grief as recorded by Matthew and Mark? If Jesus did feel abandoned, he could not be the Messiah that the New Testament authors believed him to be. If he were the Messiah, as envisioned by the New Testament, he would have known that the crucifixion was essential to his mission. Yet, if he knew this, he knew he wasn't abandoned, but was working out the divine plan. In that case, his words of despair were deceiving, something unbefitting the true Messiah.

Question: Why do the respective Jewish and Christian renderings of Psalms 22:17 (16 in some versions) differ in the translation of the Hebrew word ka-'ari?

Answer: Christians see in this verse an opportunity to make the claim that the psalmist foretold the piercing of Jesus' hands and feet as part of the crucifixion process. They maintain that the Hebrew word ka-'ari in verse 17 (16 in some versions) should be translated as "pierce." They render this verse as: "They pierced my hands and my feet." This follows the Septuagint version, used by the early Christians, whose error is repeated by the Vulgate and the Syriac. However, it should be noted that the Septuagint underwent textual revisions by Christian copyists in the early centuries of the Common Era; it is not known if the rendering "pierced" is one of those revisions.

In any case, this rendering contains two fallacies. First, assuming that the root of this Hebrew word is krh, "to dig," then the function of the 'aleph in the word ka- 'ari is inexplicable since it is not part of the root. Karah consists only of the Hebrew letters kaph, resh, and he, whereas the word in the Hebrew text, ka-'ari, consists of kaph, 'aleph, resh, and yod. Second, the verb krh, "to dig," does not have the meaning "to pierce." Karah generally refers to the digging of the soil, and is never applied in the Scriptures to the piercing of the flesh (cf. Genesis 26:25; Exodus 21:33; Numbers 21:18; Jeremiah 18:20, 22; Psalms 7:16, 57:7). There are a number of words that are used in Hebrew for piercing the body: rats'a, "to pierce," "to bore with an awl" (Exodus 21:6); dakar, "to pierce" (Zechariah 12:10, Isaiah 13:15); nakar, "to pierce," "to bore," "to perforate" (2 Kings 18:21). This last word is used in a very significant sense in the last verse cited: "It [the reed] will go into his hand and pierce it." Any of these words would be far better suited for use in this passage than one that is generally used to denote digging the soil.

The correct interpretation of the verse must be based on the elliptical style of this particular psalm. The text should read, in effect: "Like a lion [they are gnawing at] my hands and my feet." Ellipsis (the omission of words) is an apt rhetorical device for a composition in which suffering and agony is described. A person in agony does not usually express his feelings in complete round sentences. Such a person is capable of exclaiming only the most critical words of his thoughts and feelings. In this case: "Like a lion . . . my hands and my feet!" Similarly, in verse 1 we find broken phrases rather than whole sentences: "Far from helping me . . . the words of my roaring."

Examining Psalm 22, we find that verses 17, 21, and 22 express parallel thoughts. In verse 17, the psalmist speaks of "dogs" and "a lion," which are metaphoric representations of his enemies, and in verses 21 and 22 respectively, he beseeches the Almighty to save him "from a dog's paw" and "from a lion's mouth." Thus, in verse 17, where he complains of the lion, the missing words are understood, and it is to be read: "Like a lion [they are gnawing at] my hands and my feet." This is the most plausible interpretation of the text. Rashi's interpretation of the verse--"As if crushed by the mouth of a lion are my hands and my feet"--is similar in thought to the one we have offered though differently stated. While these interpretations fit with the diction of the entire psalm, the Christian translation--"They pierced my hands and my feet"--does not.

Grammatical proof of the correctness of the Masoretic text is seen by the use of the qamatz under the kaph in ka-'ari, which is the result of an assimilated definite article. Thus, the literal translation would be "Like the lion. . . ." While in English, a noun used in a general sense is recognized by having no article, either definite or indefinite, in Hebrew, as well as in many other languages, such nouns take the definite article. For example, "Work is good for man" in Hebrew would be "The work is good for man." (Cf. Amos 5:19 with the English translation.)

The metaphorical terminology used by the psalmist to express in physical terms his mental anguish is comparable to similar usage found in Jeremiah 23:9. There the prophet exclaims: "My heart within me is broken, all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine has overcome."

As a result of a careful study of this verse, we see that the Christian claim that Psalms 22:17 (16 in some versions) foretells that Jesus' hands and feet would be pierced has no truth to it.

Question: Did the Roman soldiers divide up Jesus' clothing in fulfillment of Psalms 22:19 (18 in some versions)?

Answer: Psalms 22:19 (18 in some versions) reads: "They divide my clothes among them, and for my garment they cast lots." A misunderstanding by the author of the Gospel of John influenced the way he applied this verse to his version of the division-of-the-clothing incident (John 19:24; cf. Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34).

The author of John misinterpreted the Hebrew parallelism as referring to two separate acts. In biblical poetry, which is based on parallel structure, the repetition of an idea does not indicate its duplication in reality (cf. Zechariah 9:9). Seeking to harmonize this crucifixion story with the psalm, John states that the soldiers divided Jesus' garments among themselves, but that they could not divide the inner garment, which was seamless, so they cast lots for it. "They said therefore to one another: 'Let us not tear it, but let us decide by lot whose it will be'" that the Scripture might be fulfilled: 'They divided my outer garment among themselves, and for my apparel they cast lots'" (John 19:24). Evidently, John created this legendary casting of lots to meet what he believed to be a messianic requirement of Psalm 22. In this way, the crucifixion tradition was rounded out to agree with what John thought was the prophetic message of this psalm.

But, what is the truth of the New Testament claims? If Jesus was scourged as part of the crucifixion process and then his clothes were once again placed on his wounded bloody body (Matthew 27:26, 31; Mark 15:15, 20, John 19:1) why would the soldiers want to divide up these blood soaked garments? Indeed, if the scourging continued along the route to the crucifixion, Jesus' clothing would be nothing but bloody rags of no value to the soldiers. For that matter, it is questionable if the soldiers would have placed a purple robe on the scourged body of Jesus. Purpled dyed material was extremely expensive and reserved for royalty.

It is probably for this reason that the story arose that he was wrapped in a purple robe, the color symbolic of royalty. The truth is that there is no truth to the New Testament claims.


Kind Regards
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It is probably for this reason that the story arose that he was wrapped in a purple robe, the color symbolic of royalty. The truth is that there is no truth to the New Testament claims.
And we are suppose to take Muslims and Jews words for that?

Sorry, but perhaps you can explain and prove to the Jews that Christ did come to them, using just your own Qur'an bro.

I myself do not ponder on alleged contradictions or inconsistencies in the NT, but would rather prove to the Jews and Atheists that Jesus was indeed the one to come to the Jews and Israel, including using the Inspired Book of Revelation in the NT.

That comes first and foremost, then we can start delving into those other claims. :wave:

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, "This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words."

Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than [that of] Abel.

Hebrew 9:20 saying, "This [is] the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 Therefore [it was] necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Reve 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Taken from another board thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3202647-questions-on-psalm-22.html

"To understand the extent and the manner in which the church tampered with the Jewish scriptures, let's examine the verse that you insist "proves" that Jesus is the messiah. Psalm 22:16 in the King James Version (KJV) reads,
Dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet.
It isn't difficult to understand why Christians are so confident that this verse contains a clear reference to Jesus' crucifixion. Of whom, missionaries ask, other than Jesus, could the Psalmist be speaking? To which other individual in history, whose hands and feet were pierced, could the Bible be referring?

To understand how Christian translators rewrote the words of King David, let's examine the original Hebrew words of this verse with a proper translation.


Dogs have encompassed me.

A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they
are at my hands and my feet.
I would like to ask the jews if this is indeed the correct translation of Pslam 22 and if so, then I will be that much closer in harmonizing the book of Revelation with the OT and the NT Christ. Thanks and peace.

Dogs have encompassed me.
A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a LION, [[SIZE=+2] 03738 karah [/SIZE][SIZE=+2] 0738 'ariy ] [/SIZE]they
are at my hands and my feet.
Zephaniah 3:1 Woe to her who is rebellious and polluted, To the oppressing city! 2 She has not obeyed [His] voice, She has not received correction; She has not trusted in the LORD, She has not drawn near to her God. 3 Her princes in her midst [are] roaring LIONS; [[SIZE=+2] 0738 'ariy][/SIZE] Her judges [are] evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning. 4 Her prophets are insolent, treacherous people; Her priests have polluted the sanctuary
There are 2 different greek words used for "pierce" in the NT.

(Young) John 19:34 but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce [#3572] his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water; 3572 nusso
(NKJV) Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye [#3788] will see [#3700] Him, even they who pierced [#1574] Him. And all the tribes of the land will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

ekkenteo (Strong's 1574) occurs 2 times in 2 verses:

(NKJV) John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced [#1574]."
 
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Well, maybe the Masorite hebrew says "Like a lion are my hands and my feet" but a hebrew text, 1000 years older than any masoretic manuscript we have, says otherwise:

From pages 518 and 519 of The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible:

Psalm 22 is a favourite among Christians since it is often linked in the New Testament with the suffering and death of Jesus. A well-known and controversial rendering is found in verse 16 (17 in masoretic), where the Masoretic Text reads, "Like a Lion are my hands and feet," whereas the Septuagint has "They have pierced my hands and feet." Among the scrolls the reading in question is found in the Psalm scroll found at Nahal Hever (abrev. 5/6HebPs), which reads, "They have pierced my hands and my feet" !


So, we have two early witnesses to Psalm 22 and it's reading of "they have pierced my hands and my feet" - That is the Dead sea Scroll named 5/6HebPs which is roughly dated to around the first century BCE/BC, and the Greek Septuagints of the 4th Century.

Obviously, there was no difference of the Psalm between those 5 centuries - 100 BCE to 350 CE, yet within 650 years of that date, the Masoretic Aleppo Codex has the changed Like a lion are my hands and my feet."

Obviously, the Masorites have some explaining to do.
 
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So, we have two early witnesses to Psalm 22 and it's reading of "they have pierced my hands and my feet" - That is the Dead sea Scroll named 5/6HebPs which is roughly dated to around the first century BCE/BC, and the Greek Septuagints of the 4th Century.

Obviously, there was no difference of the Psalm between those 5 centuries - 100 BCE to 350 CE, yet within 650 years of that date, the Masoretic Aleppo Codex has the changed Like a lion are my hands and my feet."

Obviously, the Masorites have some explaining to do.

Right...

The GREEK Septuagint (a translation of the original) which has been found to be flawed even moreso with regard to the Nevi'im and Ketuvim over and above it's mistranslations of the Torah should, in your eyes, be esteemed as a reliable source on the EXACT wording of the Hebrew-speaking David. And the Masorites have explaining to do. :doh:

edit:

Would you, perchance, have the following:

1) The DSS Psalm 22 in Hebrew available?
2) A working knowledge of Hebrew or know people who do?
 
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