Early Christians - not fit to post at CF!?

Rochir · Jul 28, 2006

I saw a most interesting documentary about jesus Chrsit and the early 100 years after his death. His followers then seemed to have been so much more diverse and manifold, espousing gnostic and other ways and interpretations about how to get into a communion with God.

Many of those following Christ and his ideas about how to get to God in those days would be shunned by a site like this and not even recognized as Christians!

I believe that says a LOT about how His word and traching has been perverted by men and churches and how far we are removed currently from what the Master Himself achieved to teach!

Sad, really!

ElvisFan42 · Jul 28, 2006

Do you remember where you saw this or what the name of it was?

sidhe · Jul 28, 2006

Was the documentary "From Jesus to Christ"?

That's a really good PBS Frontline special dealing with such things.

KarateCowboy · Jul 28, 2006

Rochir said:
I saw a most interesting documentary about jesus Chrsit and the early 100 years after his death. His followers then seemed to have been so much more diverse and manifold, espousing gnostic and other ways and interpretations about how to get into a communion with God.

Many of those following Christ and his ideas about how to get to God in those days would be shunned by a site like this and not even recognized as Christians!

I believe that says a LOT about how His word and traching has been perverted by men and churches and how far we are removed currently from what the Master Himself achieved to teach!

Sad, really!

Why do you think they had the council of Nicea? It was because from the beginning there were heretics and wolves in sheeps clothing. Some people may not like true believers with our icky rules and yucky accountability that makes us to not do whatever we feel like does not give license to slander us.

sidhe · Jul 28, 2006

KarateCowboy said:
Why do you think they had the council of Nicea? It was because from the beginning there were heretics and wolves in sheeps clothing. Some people may not like true believers with our icky rules and yucky accountability that makes us to not do whatever we feel like does not give license to slander us.

I think it's interesting that you react like this...given that the quoted post did nothing to slander you. It just stated that there was a lot more variety in Christian belief in the beginning, and that the poster feels that some of these beliefs were closer to what Jesus said than what is taught today.

An important thing to remember when the term "heretic" starts flying around is this - to the heretics, you're a heretic. If people had voted differently at Nicea, you'd be appalled by people who believe that Jesus had a human nature, and wasn't purely divine. If Constantine had joined a different sect, you'd be having the eucharist licked by serpents. Orthodoxy and heresy are defined by the victors of history, not by divine decree.

Of course, I guess it's easy to forget all this when you're a True Believer[sup]TM[/sup].

Sidhe (definitely a heretical christian)

seebs · Jul 28, 2006

KarateCowboy said:
Why do you think they had the council of Nicea? It was because from the beginning there were heretics and wolves in sheeps clothing. Some people may not like true believers with our icky rules and yucky accountability that makes us to not do whatever we feel like does not give license to slander us.

I think you dropped a modifier in there.

And oddly, I saw this post immediately after another in which you portrayed those who disagree with you as lacking any kind of rules or accountability.

I should point out once again that this depiction is, in the vast majority of cases, gravely in error, and that such a response to disagreement promotes schism.

We had the council of Nicea because not all Christians agreed on many issues... But that wasn't what really made it necessary.

What made it necessary was that namecalling and contempt between factions gradually escalated into violence, and it seemed that declaring official answers to some of the contentious questions would reduce this conflict.

But in the end, the problem wasn't idle speculation on theological issues that have nothing to do with whether or not one has formed a saving relationship with Jesus; the problem was the progression from derision and dismissal to contempt and eventually hostility.

NothingButTheBlood · Jul 28, 2006

Rochir said:
I saw a most interesting documentary about jesus Chrsit and the early 100 years after his death. His followers then seemed to have been so much more diverse and manifold, espousing gnostic and other ways and interpretations about how to get into a communion with God.

Many of those following Christ and his ideas about how to get to God in those days would be shunned by a site like this and not even recognized as Christians!

I believe that says a LOT about how His word and traching has been perverted by men and churches and how far we are removed currently from what the Master Himself achieved to teach!

Sad, really!

Considering how the Christians here get along anyway what would the difference be?

KarateCowboy · Jul 28, 2006

seebs said:
I think you dropped a modifier in there.

And oddly, I saw this post immediately after another in which you portrayed those who disagree with you as lacking any kind of rules or accountability.

I should point out once again that this depiction is, in the vast majority of cases, gravely in error, and that such a response to disagreement promotes schism.

I should point out that your object is, in the vast majority of cases, gravely in error, and that responding to disagreement does not promote schism so much as disagreement itself promotes schism.

We had the council of Nicea because not all Christians agreed on many issues... But that wasn't what really made it necessary.

Whenever there is a disagreement in the body it is important to reconcile it. Paul himself taught this. What bothers me is how the OP is not so much the idea of disagreement as the fact that the OP is basically a fallacy that is being used to condemn modern Christians in a round-about matter.

What made it necessary was that namecalling and contempt between factions gradually escalated into violence, and it seemed that declaring official answers to some of the contentious questions would reduce this conflict.

So, people making up their own doctrines isn't the problem, it's people calling them on it that is?

But in the end, the problem wasn't idle speculation on theological issues that have nothing to do with whether or not one has formed a saving relationship with Jesus; the problem was the progression from derision and dismissal to contempt and eventually hostility.

Once again you seem to think that the problem is not people making up heretical doctrine as it is hurting eachother's feelings.

Rochir · Jul 28, 2006

ElvisFan42 said:
Do you remember where you saw this or what the name of it was?

I believe it may have been a BBC documentary they showed on a PBS like channel on German TV: It was called "Great mysteries" and this was the second part of the show "Jesus of Nazareth".

Since the Nicene Creeed, on which this site bases who it considers a Christian and who not, was not in effect until the 5th century AFTER Jesus died on the cross, anyone following the teachings of jesus from his death until about 400 years after would not be permitted to post in the CO section of this site!

And there were a great many who followed His teachings then! Even apostel and Jesus Himself would not have been permitted within the CO section, as their teachings and words had - so the biblical scholars and scientists state - had not much to do with what was cemented as the Christian basics in the 4th/5th century after His death!

A creed, created by men, taken as definition of who follows the teachings of Jesus Christs! He Himself would, I believe, have found this as absurd as it can get!

FadingWhispers3 · Jul 28, 2006

Why do I get the feeling that heresy has more to do with majority rule than adherence to truth?

Rochir · Jul 28, 2006

KarateCowboy said:
Why do you think they had the council of Nicea?

They had that council to consolidate Christianity as the state religion under Emperor Constantine. It brought together the least controversial commonalities of the new religion, casting aside any different and contrary approaches since those - like the Gnostic way of self-illumination and self-determination when seeking God - was too complicated and could not be corrupted for political gain and power!

Jesus words did never speak of a creed, but of a way to the Father, which - according to some - can be taken and reached by one's own powers. Jesus words empowered each and everyone, each and every single humna being could reach the Father, without the necessity of bishops and clerics!

That is a powerful message which was alife and well during the first few centuries after His death! Of course those who wished to rule the meek and poor hated that message and stamped it out as soon as they could possibly were able!

What i learned through those scholarly research results made me aware how close I may am in my believes to what those contemporaries of Jesus might have thought of him as well, and what likely His message to us was!
I am more grateful than ever that such a man walked the earth and tried to teach us well! :bow:

Somehow, I now feel most honored to be called a "heretic", for it nobles my believes and shows me how close to His words I may truly am!

ElvisFan42 · Jul 28, 2006

Rochir said:
I believe it may have been a BBC documentary they showed on a PBS like channel on German TV: It was called "Great mysteries" and this was the second part of the show "Jesus of Nazareth".

Since the Nicene Creeed, on which this site bases who it considers a Christian and who not, was not in effect until the 5th century AFTER Jesus died on the cross, anyone following the teachings of jesus from his death until about 400 years after would not be permitted to post in the CO section of this site!

And there were a great many who followed His teachings then! Even apostel and Jesus Himself would not have been permitted within the CO section, as their teachings and words had - so the biblical scholars and scientists state - had not much to do with what was cemented as the Christian basics in the 4th/5th century after His death!

A creed, created by men, taken as definition of who follows the teachings of Jesus Christs! He Himself would, I believe, have found this as absurd as it can get!

I can't find anything at BBC's site, and the German public site is, well, in German. I would like to have seen that, it's all very interesting.

wblastyn · Jul 28, 2006

KarateCowboy said:
Why do you think they had the council of Nicea? It was because from the beginning there were heretics and wolves in sheeps clothing. Some people may not like true believers with our icky rules and yucky accountability that makes us to not do whatever we feel like does not give license to slander us.

Apparantly your rules don't include not spewing hatred, and you don't have to be accountable since "The Bible says it, not me!"

FadingWhispers3 · Jul 28, 2006

Fresh and salt water CAN flow from the same spring!

Rochir · Jul 28, 2006

ElvisFan42 said:
I can't find anything at BBC's site, and the German public site is, well, in German. I would like to have seen that, it's all very interesting.

When i said BBC I rather meant it looked like a BBC documentary. I looked and found the following information about this 2 part documentary:

Linky

Made by Roel Oostra
Title: Die Großen Rätsel - Der Sohn Gottes (Myths of Mankind - the son of God)

HisEagle · Jul 28, 2006

As I see it, one has to be careful what he takes from such documentaries because after all, on what sources are they basing their research for the film? Can those sources be trusted, or are they biased?

DailyBlessings · Jul 28, 2006

It's true that a great many of the early Christians did not believe in the "fundamentals" that define Christianity on CF. Personally, I wish a more inclusive policy were adopted.

ElvisFan42 · Jul 28, 2006

Rochir said:
When i said BBC I rather meant it looked like a BBC documentary. I looked and found the following information about this 2 part documentary:

Linky

Made by Roel Oostra
Title: Die Großen Rätsel - Der Sohn Gottes (Myths of Mankind - the son of God)

Thanks, I translated the page, but it's not for sale, and I still don't speak German! ^_^

Probably would be PAL anyhow.

Aimee30 · Jul 29, 2006

I have a book by Geza Vermes called, The Authentic Gospel of Jesus. Inrestingly enough, this fellow says the writers of the gospels wove stories around Jesus's sayings. The funny thing is that the Catholic Herald is quoted as praising the fact that he can claim to know more than others about Jesus.
The man tries to say that most of the gospel is mythology woven around Jesus and a paper called the Catholic Herald can praise it? Seems pretty odd.
There is also the fact that I don't even agree with all of his interpretaions of scripture.
I however, thought this would be a thread about what some believe is the belief of the original Jerusalem church. The claim there according to one of my books sources--a book called "The Mythmaker"--claims that the original church thought of Jesus as just a man and that he would actually become the king of Jerusalem.
However, you mentioned the others like Gnostic Christians.
I've read some Gnostic scripture and most that I read seems a little far out, other than the Gospel of Thomas and maybe a few other works. Have you researched any of the differing sects beliefs? Some are quite unsual as well, if you ask me.

Early Christians - not fit to post at CF!?

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