SCORE ANOTHER POINT FOR THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

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Covenant Heart

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Why is it that we always approach the Revelation from the standpoint that it intends to convey an exact outline of specific places, persons and events? How do we get people to question that premise? Forget that the entire book is a vision, and that vision reports are a well defined literary genre! Never doubt that we are reading the book incorrectly!

While referring to past time and future time, the Revelation is concerned mainly with timeless truths and spiritual realities that are applicable for God’s people in every age. We don’t need to be expert in Biblical apocalyptic or symbolism to get John’s point. This gives the Revelation back to the church. That’s good. This book has a vital message for us. We must not surrender it to self-proclaimed experts in prophetic divination. To read the Revelation as a coded book to be deciphered to produce literal, end-time prophecies is disingenuous. It impoverishes, weakens and divides the church needlessly over esoteric notions. This book is an apocalypse, a vision, a prophecy, an epistle and a worship manual. We need to do justice to each purpose. To read John’s vision primarily as predictions misses that it is above all a work of profound theology.

John freely reinterprets and adapts earlier prophecies to his purpose. The descriptions of the plagues of the seven trumpets (Re 8:6-9:21) and the bowls (16:1-21) show a very schematized pattern that conveys meaning in itself. Among other things, their content recalls the plagues of Egypt and the Exodus, Jericho’s fall to Joshua’s army, the locusts of Joel, Sinaic theophany, the contemporary fear of invasion by Parthian cavalry and likely the eruptions of Vesuvius that had recently terrified the whole Mediterranean world. John takes people’s worst experiences and fears of wars and natural disasters, he magnifies them to apocalyptic proportion, and then casts them in Biblical terms. His point is not to predict a sequence of events. His point is to explore the meaning of divine judgment impending on a sinful world. Above all else, the Revelation is to be read theologically!

John’s symbols and images resonate with the social, political, cultural and religious world of his day. First century people understood these images (Vesuvius’ eruptions–not nuclear war!). Rooted in John’s day, these images are not timeless symbols, no. But the opposite error is to be avoided also–reading them as coded messages to be translated into prophecies about literal places and people. The last of seven bowls results in the fall of Babylon in an earthquake of unprecedented power (Re 16:17-21). If this is a literal prediction, it is soon contradicted by later images of the fall of Babylon. Images must be known in their first century context before we contextualize them to our own time. Where the Revelation is concerned, the extremes of the historist and futurist interpretative systems are to be shunned. Of course granting that, we lose our impetus for endless speculation about these futuristic odysseys.

Plotted on a map, the seven churches stand in order of a circular visit beginning at Patmos. A little sensitivity to this work may suggest that this is deliberate, and that John–carried by the Spirit–gives us a vision with a very unusual feature. These letters introduce the vision in a way that invites us to read the book from seven very different perspectives within a broader situation common to all of the churches. The spiritual pathologies seen in the seven letters relate to the contents of John’s broader vision–injustice, compromise, corruption, heresy, war, purity, martyrdom, truth, worship, witness and final victory, etc. Such are the theological issues of the vision. There is God’s answer to the modern, secular heresy that wastes us everywhere. It is needed desperately to shape in us his vision of the Christian in the world. We must face those issues! But instead of using John’s vision to shape our engagement in a battle that rages all around us, the very word we need today is pushed into the future! Then we wring our hands and wonder why it is so bad.

What’s bad is our refusal to apply this weapon–this book–to our day. The remedy is not to hatch creatively new and ever more expansive eschatologies. No, in each church, the call is to "hear" what the Spirit says (Re 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22) to the churches (plural). This shows that the seven are representative of true congregations of the Lord, and that all the letters–with the whole vision that they introduce–are for the whole church today. It’s time we listened.

Blessings,

Covenant Heart
 
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Bondservant by Grace

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Nephilimiyr,

Thank you so much for your gracious words, and for the blessings. You have brought God's joy to me, today, in taking the time to write to respond to my post, and in your willingness to share your 'blessings'. I just learned last night about passing them on, so was temporarily without any <s>.

Eddielee,

Thank you for clarifying the teaching of the prewrath authors. I read these works only one time in late 2001, and have forgotten some of the exact details of the timings they taught. I personally believe that what is important is not the exact timing but that Christians be armed with the knowledge that it is very likely that we (those physically alive at the time) will be on earth to see most if not all of the seventieth week of Daniel -- so that we will not grow lax in our diligence, thinking we will not have to endure tribulation during that time.

Of course, ideally we never allow ourselves to grow lax on any point, but still being humanly alive, this can be a never-ending discipline for us. (An aside--a wonderful book on this subject is François Fenelon's "The Royal Way of the Cross"--Hal Helms, Editor translation.)

Covenant Heart,

<s> We disagree on the importance of studying Revelations as prophecy, but I do agree with you that there is MUCH to be learned from this book in addition to prophecy. Our greatest need is to walk in absolute surrender to God (no lukewarmness), and in the power of the Love of God for Himself, first, each other, second, and always for the lost world, sacrificially. The heart-cry of Jesus is for souls, and so should the cry of our hearts be. Oh Lord, in Your great mercy, give us a burden for the lost; give us hearts on fire with Your love for those who are lost. How close I came to being among them, but for God's amazing grace and the prayers of others.

To all, thank you for taking your time to respond to my post, either directly or indirectly. I am very new to this forum but am finding it very interesting and am learning a lot from others.

Blessings and love in Christ,

Bondservant by Grace
 
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postrib

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Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #37 in this thread:
". . . we will not be on earth during the outpouring of the seven bowls of God's wrath . . . "
We will. In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the saints will be raptured before the vials of wrath occur (Revelation 16). Just as neither Lot nor Noah were raptured into heaven before God's wrath against Sodom or the flood, so the church won't be raptured into heaven before God's wrath in the seven vials. Instead, Jesus promises a blessing to the faithful saints who are still on the earth during the sixth vial because by that time He still hasn't yet come as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Before the vials of wrath are poured out, faithful saints could be called by God to shut themselves in protected places on the earth which had been prepared beforehand (Isaiah 26:20-21), just like Noah was called to shut himself in the ark prepared before the flood (Genesis 7:1).

From post #37 in this thread:
". . . May we redeem the time by praying for and witnessing to lost souls . . . "
Amen. But sometimes people (not you) preach the gospel like this: "Are you saved? You need to get saved so you won't have to go through the tribulation. Jesus promised all believers they'll get raptured before the tribulation," that is, they mix in the pre-trib doctrine whenever they preach the gospel so that it sort of becomes a pre-trib gospel. If they're going to include end-time matters in their witnessing, they must make sure that they include everything that Jesus taught about that (Matthew 28:20), including what we will have to endure before He comes (Matthew 24:4-28). My fear is that people could get saved by a pre-trib gospel, but then lose faith when there's no pre-trib rapture. They could say, "Wait a minute. They said if we got saved we wouldn't have to go through this tribulation. They were wrong. The gospel must be a sham. A loving God would never let me and my little ones suffer like this," and so they will fulfill Matthew 24:10-12 as they become offended with God and their love for Him grows cold, and they will fulfill the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which the Apostle Paul said must come before the rapture comes. But if we warn people ahead of time that we will have to go through a very difficult time before Jesus returns, they'll have a better chance of not being offended and of not committing apostasy when the suffering comes.

From post #40 in this thread:
". . . Van Kampen's and Rosenthal's Pre wrath position has the saints being raptured between the 6th and 7th seal, to appear in heaven at the 7th seal (the great multitude in white robes coming out of the tribulation) . . . "
The post-trib view includes various views regarding the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-14. One points out that nothing says or requires that the great multitude was raptured; they could simply be a large number of Christians from every nation who entered into the tribulation and were then killed in the seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

From post #40 in this thread:
". . . the saints in their view are not on earth during the 7 trumpets . . . "
The 144,000 Christians will still be on the earth during the fifth trumpet (Revelation 9:4; 7:3-4), and then later they will be in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other Christians will still be on the earth suffering and dying under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13). So some of the church will still be alive on the earth during the trumpets.

The scriptures don't say that there will first be a future coming of Christ to resurrect and rapture believers into heaven before the trumpets and vials, and then another coming of Christ from heaven with believers after the trumpets and vials. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Christ, which we don't see until Revelation 19, after the vials. There's no third coming.

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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters
 
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TasManOfGod

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I have long been fascinated by discussions on pre/mid/post/trib rapture of the Church and become interested in what those holding the various positions think of what I believe. I myself hold one of those - pre trib- and was once pretty much conventional, but I have gone a bit radical in my old age. Why? you ask -well I thought about it a lot and decided there were some elements in thoeries that I heard that just dont fit. I decided to seek the wisdom of God and after much prayer I began to have incredible insight into Revelation.
Some may be aware from other threads about what I believe but for those who don't here is an outline:
Revelations is not only about the Church, nor about the Church + Israel, it is about how God reconciles all of His covenant people, seven in all, and receives ALL of them to Himself.
Look at the dynamics. Suppose we are the last generation (every possibility that that could be so) We being the last covenant made, God decides to remove (resurrect) us first (the last shall be first) now all the end time prophecy about the Children of Israel can be fulfilled within the next 7 years. Suppose however those under the covenant with Moses (the Law) end after 3 1/2 years what then? Well what about the covenant with Jacob (Israel) again taken after nearly another 3 1/2 years - what then. Descendants of Isaac follow closely behind - what then. Abraham a little over 7 years - what then Christ returns with His Saints
And who are His saints? Those who have been part of the "first resurrection" just described and chosen by the author of those covenants "The Lord of Lord and King of Kings. to rule and reign with Him
Now there are elements of pre, mid and post trib theology there but I believe put in the right perpective it all makes a lot of sense.
Yes that is right there are two covenants yet to deal with (Noah and Adam) but that is 1000 years away.
God bless
 
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Curt

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Matt 24:3-51
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [If the elect aren't here why should the days be shortened?]
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[For someone to say they know is to call Jesus a liar.]
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
 
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TasManOfGod

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It is interesting that when the disciples asked "When will be the end of the (Jewish) age" that Jesus did not say it would be when He died but rather at a time that has not yet occured. As His answer also identifies with Daniel's 70th week then one has to ask "OK so if the jewish age is on "hold" then would not the "age of the gentiles" have to cease beforehand?" And how could that happen? By it's removal by resurrection (rapture) -that's how. Hence we understand a pre trib rapture of the Church
 
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postrib

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Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #44 in this thread:
". . . all the end time prophecy about the Children of Israel can be fulfilled within the next 7 years . . . "
The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be from every nation (Revelation 7:9-14), not just Israel. The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). And the scriptures nowhere teach that the church and Israel are mutually exclusive. Believing Gentiles have already become Abraham's seed and heirs (Galatians 3:29), fellow heirs with believing Jews (Ephesians 3:6), grafted into the tree of believing Israel (Romans 11:17). Believing Gentiles are no longer aliens to the commonwealth of Israel or strangers to the covenants of promise made to Israel, but are now fellow citizens with believing Israel (Ephesians 2:12-19).

From post #44 in this thread:
". . . Suppose however those under the covenant with Moses (the Law) end after 3 1/2 years . . . "
The Christians in the tribulation will be under the New Covenant, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

From post #44 in this thread:
". . . Christ returns with His Saints . . . "
The scriptures don't say that there will first be a future coming of Jesus for His saints, and then a subsequent coming with His saints. Instead, they refer to a single future coming of Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says that He will come with believers at the rapture (compare 1 Thessalonians 3:13). There's no third coming.

From post #45 in this thread:
". . . For someone to say they know is to call Jesus a liar . . . "
Jesus didn't say that no man will know the day, only that no man knows the day, which is still true. Compare the Apostle Paul's use in 1 Corinthians 2:11-12 of the same "the things of God knoweth no man" idea that Jesus expresses in Matthew 24:36. There Paul explains that by the Holy Spirit it's now possible for believers to know the things of God, just as other scriptures leave open the possibility that in the future the Holy Spirit will reveal the day to believers (John 16:13; Amos 3:7).

From post #46 in this thread:
". . . would not the 'age of the gentiles' have to cease beforehand? . . . "
Luke 21:24 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, and Revelation 11:2 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles during the tribulation; therefore, the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled before the tribulation.

From post #46 in this thread:
". . . we understand a pre trib rapture of the Church . . . "
In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

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May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.
 
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