Who is a Jew?

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 16, 2004

Perhaps someone can answer me this question:

Where in the Bible does it say that Yahweh will abandon his people for 2000 years and let the vast majority of them go to hell? Why does He only care about saving a few Jews in the last generation?

Dad Ernie · Apr 16, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
Perhaps someone can answer me this question:

Where in the Bible does it say that Yahweh will abandon his people for 2000 years and let the vast majority of them go to hell? Why does He only care about saving a few Jews in the last generation?

Romans 11:1-2 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. ...

683 apotheomai {ap-o-theh'-om-ahee} or apothomai {ap-o'-thom-ahee}
from 575 and the middle voice of otheo or otho (to shove);
TDNT - 1:448,*; v
AV - cast away 2, thrust away 1, put from 1, thrust from 1,
put away 1; 6
1) to thrust away, push away, repel
2) to thrust away from one's self, to drive away from one's self
2a) repudiate, reject, refuse

God has NOT rejected, abandoned, or cast away His people He foreknew. BUT we have to look with a broader view at the last 2,000 years + in connection with the following:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7-8 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

Romans 11:10-12 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Romans 11:23-28 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Romans 11:30-32 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Hardness of heart has come upon Israel so that the Gospel would go to the Gentiles. When the Gentiles have reached THEIR fill in the Kingdom of God, the Lord will once again soften THEIR heart to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ, at which time they too shall receive THEIR "fulness".

The scriptures do not say how long between the onset of the Gospel going to the Gentiles to when they receive their "fulness", but as we can see it has been 2,000+ so far and counting and we still only see a REMNANT of Jews that have been and are saved, even today. By some calculations I made some time ago, only about one hundredth of one percent of Jews worldwide have come to knew Jesus as their Messiah. We also know that Gentiles are STILL being added to the Kingdom of God on a daily basis, so if you want to know WHEN the bulk of Jews are going to be saved, read Deut 4:26-31.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 16, 2004

Yes. I'm agree with much of what you're saying there, Dad Ernie. However, what I do not agree with is that the modern Jews are the only people in the world today who may be at least partially descended from Israeltie stock.

Ephraim

KJV Genesis 48:17-22
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

KJV Genesis 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

What's interesting about this verse is that "nations" is translated from the Hebrew goyim, which may also be rendered as Gentiles.

TUA Genesis 48:19 Wayma'en 'abiyw wayo'mer, Yada`tiy bniy ; yada`tiy!Gam- huw' yihyeh- l`am {*} wgam- huw' yigdal. W'uwlam'achiyw haqaTon yigdal mimenuw wzar`ow yihyeh mlo'- hagowyim.

יט וַיְמָאֵן אָבִיו, וַיֹּאמֶר יָדַעְתִּי בְנִי יָדַעְתִּי--גַּם-הוּא יִהְיֶה-לְּעָם, וְגַם-הוּא יִגְדָּל; וְאוּלָם, אָחִיו הַקָּטֹן יִגְדַּל מִמֶּנּוּ, וְזַרְעוֹ, יִהְיֶה מְלֹא-הַגּוֹיִם.

And multitude is tranlsated from מלא mlo, n.m. what fillls, what makes something full; fullnes, everything:- translated as full [12x], fulness [8], all that is therein [6], fill [2], handful (+3709) [2], multitude [2], etc. (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Hebrew Dictionary Reference #4393)

In case you must have it:

#1471 גוי goy, n.m. people, nation; Gentiles, pagan, heathen, uncultured
(We can see though, by the use of this word in reference to the descendants of Ephraim, son Joseph that goyim is not as pejorative as many today believe it to be.)

Just for by way of comparison let's look at the word translated multitude in Genesis 48:16

KJV Genesis 48:11-16
11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.
12 And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.
13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

TUA Genesis 48:16 hamal'akhago'el 'otiy mikal- ra` ybarek 'et- han`ariym. Wyiqare'bahem shmiy wshem 'botay 'Abraham w-Yitschaq. Wyidguwlarob bqereb ha'arets.

#7230 רב rob, n.m. greatness, abundance; multitude

Therefore it is indeed vary interesting that mlo is used in Genesis 48:19, especially when we compare it to Romans 11:25.

KJV Genesis 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations [or fulness of Gentiles].

KJV Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

(Thanks to Just the Facts, whom Yahweh used to point this particular comparison out to me earlier.)

Plan 9 · Apr 16, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
Perhaps someone can answer me this question:

Where in the Bible does it say that Yahweh will abandon his people for 2000 years and let the vast majority of them go to hell? Why does He only care about saving a few Jews in the last generation?

Nowhere that I'm aware of. I'm afraid you'll have to explain to me why you assume that G-d has adandoned them.

Btw, what does "Ebed" mean?

Plan 9 · Apr 16, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
Yes. I'm agree with much of what you're saying there, Dad Ernie. However, what I do not agree with is that the modern Jews are the only people in the world today who may be at least partially descended from Israeltie stock.

Oh, you're going to change what you earliy asserted, and admit partial descendence? Good idea, and I hope you keep traveling that road to where it leads: Today's Jews are every bit as Jewish as those in the OT.

Who's even said that? There's no doubt that some Jews have been assimilated into the dominant cultures in which they were forced to live after the various diasporas and have lost all knowledge of any Jewish heritage.
With the DNA testing you find so inadequate, but everyone else is justly excited about, people have their first real opportunity to find out that they're partly or fulling of Jewish descent and go digging for the geneological and acheological information to tell them more, as did the Hemmings amd Jefferson families.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 17, 2004

Plan 9 said:
Nowhere that I'm aware of. I'm afraid you'll have to explain to me why you assume that G-d has adandoned them.

I don't assume that at all. That just seems to be the logical conclusion if you follow the traditional idea held by many Christians that Jews are the only surviving descendants of Jacob on the earth today. I realize that not even the Jews hold with that idea, but quite a few Christians seem to be under that impression and have never seriously researched the identity of the 'Lost' Tribes of Israel. I was simply using that question as a thought experiment.

Plan 9 said:
Btw, what does "Ebed" mean?

Ebed means servant in Hebrew. Similar to Obadiah (Obad-Yah/Obad-Yahu).

Plan 9 said:
Oh, you're going to change what you earliy asserted, and admit partial descendence? Good idea, and I hope you keep traveling that road to where it leads: Today's Jews are every bit as Jewish as those in the OT.

I know I did orignally imply and/or assert that all modern day Jews are not Israelites, and I apologize for that. Sometimes I get a little carried away and I go too far, I admit it. However, I do believe that the combination of all the information I presented provides ample enough evidence to show that not all of those who claim to be Jews today are descended from Jacob. After all, a Spaniard or a Pakistani doesn't become English just by moving to London, learning to speak the language, and adopting the culture and/or religion. He can become a citizen of Great Britain, but he doesn't then get to claim descent from King Arthur or Richard the Lionheart.

Plan 9 · Apr 17, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
I don't assume that at all. That just seems to be the logical conclusion if you follow the traditional idea held by many Christians that Jews are the only surviving descendants of Jacob on the earth today. I realize that not even the Jews hold with that idea, but quite a few Christians seem to be under that impression and have never seriously researched the identity of the 'Lost' Tribes of Israel. I was simply using that question as a thought experiment.

In other words, you don't intend to explain your reasoning.
If you're not going to support that statement, would you mind explaining what you think a Gedanken experiment is?

"The Lost Tribes of Israel?" Have you been reading the literature put out by the Worldwide Church of God, from Sacred Namers; who?

Ebed means servant in Hebrew. Similar to Obadiah (Obad-Yah/Obad-Yahu).

Thank you.

I know I did orignally imply and/or assert that all modern day Jews are not Israelites, and I apologize for that. Sometimes I get a little carried away and I go too far, I admit it. However, I do believe that the combination of all the information I presented provides ample enough evidence to show that not all of those who claim to be Jews today are descended from Jacob. After all, a Spaniard or a Pakistani doesn't become English just by moving to London, learning to speak the language, and adopting the culture and/or religion. He can become a citizen of Great Britain, but he doesn't then get to claim descent from King Arthur or Richard the Lionheart.

Ebed, your conspiracy theory is so sweeping in scope that you can't have it both ways. If a significant number of real Jews, who are faithfully attempting to serve HaShem, have surived as a people into the present, then they and their ancesters have been attending synagogue cheek and jowl with the Satan worshiping, nefarious end times evil plotters for centuries; the faithful true Jews would have noticed that they were among Satan worshiping, evil fake Jews, and blown the whistle on them long ago.
C'mon, Ebed, how long do you think you would have to attend a church regularly before you noticed that most of the rest of the congregation was worshipping Satan, rather than G-d?

You have yet to present any valid evidence whatsoever, and you did numerous end runs around my posts when I refuted yours, rather than respond to them. That's a valid tactic in football, but not in debate.
So far, your research has proven to be as scanty as it is erroneous, and I'm beginning to suspect that the bulk of it isn't original to you; that it's from someone's website.

Let me advise you again to read the Bible through from beginning to end at least five times in a row, and let it be your guide. You will not find the expression "Lost Tribes is Israel" used anywhere in it.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

Plan 9 said:
In other words, you don't intend to explain your reasoning.

Okay, heres what I meant when I asked: Where in the Bible does it say that Yahweh will abandon his people for 2000 years and let the vast majority of them go to hell? Why does He only care about saving a few Jews in the last generation?

Most of the so-called Jews who have lived for the past 2000 years have rejected Yahshua HaMashiach and, according to Christian doctrine (and barring a belief in reincarnation), have therefore been damned to hell. In that respect, they were abandoned, although they made that choice of their own free will.

Now, I know that promises Yahweh He will not abandon his children. In fact, the Word of Yahweh tells us:

KJV Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

KJV Deuteronomy 31:8 And the Lord, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

KJV Joshua 1:5-7
5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.

KJV Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

KJV Romans 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

KJV Romans 9:22-28
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Yahweh does not abandon his children. Unfortunately, however, many of his children choose to abandon themselves.

KJV Ezekiel 20:2-4
2 Then came the word of the Lord unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Are ye come to inquire of me? As I live, saith the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.
4 Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers:

KJV Deuteronomy 32:15-20
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

The Israelites did not abide by the covenant which Yahweh made with them when he brought them out of Egypt, thereby bringing the His wrath upon themselves. But eventually He had mercy on His children and offered them another chance.

KJV Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (Emphasis mine)
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

KJV Hebrews 8:6-13
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

KJV John 4:19-26
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

KJV Matthew 27:11-25
11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.
16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

Judaism is the rejection of Christianity. Judaism is the religion of the priests, scribes, and elders who sentenced Yahshua, the Son and human manifestation of Yahweh, to death. This religion is codified in the Talmud, the Midrash, and other such writings.

What many people fail to understand is that no one in the Bible ever practiced Judaism. Abraham, Moses, David, and all the true prophets were Christians! They looked forward to the revealing, death, and resurrection of HaMashiach (the Messiah), even as we look backwards. They understood that animal sacrifices could never be enough to atone for their sins. Only Yahweh, only his Yahshua could fully pay the death penalty that our wickedness warrants.

Anyway, contrary to popular belief, Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament. If that were true, where is the temple (or at least a tabernacle)? And where are the priests, the animal sacrifices?

KJV Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

KJV Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Speaking of Yahshua of course)

KJV Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Don't be fooled by the lies of this Satanic world. Yahweh's word is truth. Trust in Yahweh, his Word, and His Holy Spirit, and not the so-called wisdom of man.

As these verses demonstrate, there can be no worship of nor relationship with the Father if one does not know the Son.

KJV John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

KJV John 5:20-23
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

KJV John 8:16-19
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

KJV John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

KJV John 15:23-25
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Therefore anyone who claims to worship the Father, El Shaddai Yahweh Elohim Adonai, and yet does not accept Yahshua Ben-Yahweh as Hemistich (the Messiah), that person is either lying or deceived.

KJV Matthew 16:5-12
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

KJV Matthew 15:12-14
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

KJV Matthew 23:13-15
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

KJV Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

KJV Romans 2:17-25
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

KJV Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

KJV Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

KJV 1 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

KJV Galatians 5:6-9
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

KJV Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Plan 9 said:
Ebed, your conspiracy theory is so sweeping in scope that you can't have it both ways. If a significant number of real Jews, who are faithfully attempting to serve HaShem, have surived as a people into the present, then they and their ancesters have been attending synagogue cheek and jowl with the Satan worshiping, nefarious end times evil plotters for centuries; the faithful true Jews would have noticed that they were among Satan worshiping, evil fake Jews, and blown the whistle on them long ago.
C'mon, Ebed, how long do you think you would have to attend a church regularly before you noticed that most of the rest of the congregation was worshipping Satan, rather than G-d?

That depends. Are the children of light unable to be deceived? Is it impossible?

KJV 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

KJV Matthew 24:23-24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Alright, so if any person, Jew or Gentile, does not accept the Gospel of Yahshua HaMashiach, then they are not the elect. Also, it does not seem possible, according to the Word, to deceive the elect, at least not totally and completely. The elect might make some mistakes here and there, but they will always return to the truth of their Father, much like the Prodigal Son. So then, it seems clear to me now that, if there are any true descendants of Israel amongst modern Jewry, they don't seem to be in the majority.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

KJV Romans 11:25-36
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus Romans 12:25
25 ου γαρ θελω υμας αγνοειν αδελφοι το μυστνριον τουτο ινα μη ητε παρ εαυτοις φρονιμοι οτι πωρωσις απω μερους τω ισραηλ γεγονεν αχρις οθ το πληρωμα των εθνων εισελθη

TUA Romans 11:25 Ou gar thelo humas agnoein, adelfoi, tomusterion touto, hina-me ete par heautois fronimoi,hoti porosis apo merous to Israel gegonen achris houto pleroma ton ethnon eiselthe,

4457 πωρωσις porosis (po'-ro-sis) n.
[from pwrow - poroo 4456] hardening, stubbornes:--blindness [2], hardness [1]

3313 μερους meros (mer'-os) n.
Part, share, portion; (pl.) district, region:--part [17], parts, [7], coast, [3], portion, [3], behalf [2], respect [2], by course (+303) [1], craft [1], particularly (+2596)ly) [6], particular [1], partly (+5100, piece [1], side [1], some what (+575) [1], sort [1]

4138 πληρωμα pleroma (play'-ro-mah) n.
[from pleroo - pleroo 4137] fulness, fulfillment:--fulness.[13], fulfilling [1], full [1], piece that filled up [1], which is put in to fill up [1],

1484 εθνων ethnos (eth'-nos)
[probably from eqw - etho 1486] Gentile, [by implication, by implication] pagan; (foreign [as in non-Jewish]) nation, a people:--Gentiles [93], nations [37], nation [27], heathen [5], people [2].

1525 εισελθη - εισερχομαι eiserchomai (ice-er'-khom-ahee)
f[rom eiV - eis 1519 and ercomai - erchomai 2064] to go in, enter [literally or figuratively]:--enter [55], entered [48], went into [14], went in [11], come in [8], came in [7], enter in [7], go in [7], come into [6], entered in [5], coming in [3], entereth [3], entering [3], came into [2], come [2], go into [2], arose [1], came to [1], comest in [1], come to [1], come unto [1], cometh into [1], enter in through [1], entereth in [1], entering in [1], goeth into [1], gone [1], go [1], in [1], wentest in [1], went [1]

(From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance)

Notice that Romans 11:25 does not say,"blindness in part is happened to the Jews", but "blindness in part is happened to Israel". And no, contrary to popular belief, all references to Israel do not apply to the modern nation-state of Israel established in the Middle East on May 15, 1948. The name Israel refers to the people, the descendants of Jacob, not just a piece of real estate. Only when the text says specifically, "the land of Israel" must we then apply it to verse or passage to the territory itself. And, even then, whether any of the passages in the Bible ever refer to the modern nation-state of Israel by the name "Israel" or "land of Israel" is debatable, especially since the Jews can definitely not claim to represent all the 12 tribes of Israel, regardless of what anyone else may believe.

So, most take this passage to mean partial spiritual blindness or hardness, but can a person be only partially blind spiritually? No, I believe that spiritually, either we see the truth, or we do not. So, this is not saying that any single group of people is "in part" blinded or hardened, but that a part of the whole of Israel is blinded from the truth. That part seems to be the Jews, if very many of them are in fact descended from the tribe of Judah/Yudah, Levi, and/or Benyamin. It could also mean that a part of Israel may not be aware of something until the "fulness of the Gentiles is come in". Could that something be, perhaps, their identity?

Plan 9 said:
You have yet to present any valid evidence whatsoever, and you did numerous end runs around my posts when I refuted yours, rather than respond to them. That's a valid tactic in football, but not in debate.
So far, your research has proven to be as scanty as it is erroneous, and I'm beginning to suspect that the bulk of it isn't original to you; that it's from someone's website.

Not all of the research is original to me, no. Almost everything we know, or think we know, is second-hand, third-hand, fourth-hand information. But I made an effort to back to the earliest source available for everything that Ive learned or discovered. Ive just about gone to the furthest extent I can with the limited resources available to me. I tried to answer any possible gaps in the information with different source materials. Perhaps you can compile and repeat some of these supposed refutations you made, in a plain, honest, and forthright manner, without belittling me, calling me names, and twisting my words around. Then I will do my best to answer all of them as soon as I possibly can.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

Double Post.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

Let me advise you again to read the Bible through from beginning to end at least five times in a row, and let it be your guide. You will not find the expression "Lost Tribes is Israel" used anywhere in it.

KJV Matthew 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

KJV Matthew 15:22-24
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

KJV Matthew 18:11-14
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

KJV John 10:1-42
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

KJV Jeremiah 50:4-6
4 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their God. (Emphasis added)
5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

KJV Exodus 31:16-17
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

KJV Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

KJV Mark 2:27-28
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

KJV Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

KJV Romans 9:29-33
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

Scythians

EDIT: "Scythia , ancient region of Eurasia, extending from the Danube on the west to the borders of China on the east. The Scythians. flourished from the 8th to the 4th cent. B.C. They spoke an Indo-Iranian language but had no system of writing. They were nomadic conquerors and skilled horsemen. They seem to be related to the Saka, another nomadic tribe that roamed the steppes of central Asia at about the same time".

From http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0844169.html END EDIT

KJV James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

KJV Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

EDIT: Flavius Josephus records in his Antiquities of the Jews Book I Chapter 6 Section 1:

"Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians."

Because of this, many pastors and Bible 'scholars' teach that the Scythians are to be related primarily with Gog and Magog. However, the Greek historian Herodotus records the names of many different Scythian tribes which roamed the southern steppes of modern day Russia. It is possible that Josephus was somewhat confused on this issue, as he most likely never visited the Scythian homelands after all. This should also be considered in light of Noah's blessing given to his son Shem.

KJV Genesis 9:26-27
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD (Yahweh) God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

KJV Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

So, if Japheth is to "dwell in the tents of Shem", then it would make sense for Magog (Japhethites) to be dwelling among, or in close proximity to, the Israelite Scythians (Shemites).

Also, a nomadic people called the Magyars invaded Europe in the 9th-10th centuries A.D. Magyar is etymologically related to Magog. The descendantss of the Magyars live chiefly in modern-day Hungary, but also have minority populations in Romania (1,400,000), Slovakia (520,500), Serbia and Montenegro (293,000), Ukraine (170,000), Croatia (16,500), the Czech Republic (14,600) and Slovenia (7,700).
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyars

Now, please look again at Colossians 3:11.

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

If Scythians were merely evil barbarians, why is "Barbarian" (which really only implies a non-Greek speaking people) the first type of people mentioned right before them? If we follow the logical order of the verse, then Greek, uncircumcision, and Barbarian should be on one side, while Jew, circumcision, and Scythian should be on the other. END EDIT

Many Scythians were/are actually Israelites.

4658 Σκυθης Skythes, n.pr.g. Scythian (name occurs only once in the New Testament) [From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance]

The name has two possible derivations. One possibility is that it comes from the Hebrew word Sukka/Sukkot:

5521 סכה sukkah, n.f. tabernacle, shrine; booth, shelter, dwelling, tent:

5523 סכות sukkot, n.pr.loc. Succoth, "booths"

It is likely that many (but not all) of the 10 northern tribes of the Israelites were forced to remain nomadic by the Assyrians after being taken into captivity around 715-722 B.C. and were thereby forced to dwell in tents, or sukkotim (plural form of sukkot).

KJV 2 Kings 18:9-12
9 And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Hezekiah, which was the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up against Samaria, and besieged it.
10 And at the end of three years they took it: even in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that is the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.
11 And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:
12 Because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.

Dating the earliest Scythians has been a problem since they did not develop their distinctive art style until the 6th century B.C. A. I. Melyukova suggested that the early Scythians were descendants of tribes of the Srubnaya culture who, between the middle of the 2nd millenium B.C. and the end of the 7th century B.C., moved in several waves from the Volga-Ural steppes into the north Black Sea area and assimilated the local Cimmerians. In history, the Scythians was first recorded in the 7th century B.C. as Assyria's ally against the Cimmerians, who had lost their homeland to the Scythians and moved south. The Scythian king, Partatua married an Assyrian princess in 674 B.C. and two nations remained allies. Scythians and Assyrians together conquered the Medes of the Caspian Sea; however the Medes was able to drive the Scythians out of western Asia and back to the Pontic Steppes by the turn of the century.

(From http://www.silk-road.com/artl/scythian.shtml)

One of the principal extent sources for Scythian history The Histories by Herodotus, Book Four. They are also briefly mentioned here and there throughout The Histories. Here are a few samples of interesting and relevant quotes from Herodotus:

"The Scythians, however, though in other respects I do not admire them, have managed one thing, and that the most important in human affairs, better than anyone else on the face of the earth: I mean their own preservation". (Book IV, 46, pgs. 230-231 in my Penguin Classics version - Penguin Books. London, England. 1996. John Marincolas' revised edition from Aubrey de Selincourt's 1954 translation.)

"They never use pigs for sacrifice and will not even breed them anywhere in the country". (Book IV, 63, pg. 235)

"After a burial, the Scythians go through a process of cleaning themselves;" (Book IV, 73, pg. 238)

"Like the Egyptian, the Scythians are dead-set against foreign ways, especially against Greek ways". (Book IV, 76. pg. 239)

"These two stories will show the importance which the Scythians attach to their national traditions, and the severity of the punishments they inflict upon anyone who introduces alien customs". (Book IV, 80, pg. 241)

Clues From Scythian Art

It may seem strange that an art from the Near East could have traveled so far inland and appeared (as in Luristan ) with no apparent signs of early development (5) in more than one place at about the same time. But a significant point to remember is that both Urartu and Luristan (Media) were at that time within the Assyrian administration. The timing of the appearance of Scythian art coincides with the invasions of the Assyrians into Syria, Phoenicia and the northern kingdom of Israel. Not only were luxury articles carried away as a result of these invasions, craftsmen were deported and put to work in the various Assyrian areas of control. Evidence of this is seen in the flowering of what is called Neo-Assyrian art, the last phase of Assyrian art which is said to have started in the reign of Tiglathpilesar. Another term given by art historians for this new Assyrian style is "Phoenician".(6) It is worth considering that Scythian art (which by its character could carry the name "Phoenician" even more easily) may be evidence not just of the influence of deported craftsmen but of actual population groups deported from the areas of invasion (as was the Assyrian habit when conquering a territory) These groups may have been more than one people of different ethnic origins from the Near East but who had similar or at times indistinguishable art styles.

(From http://pages.sssnet.com/7genex7/where.html)

THE "LOST" TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL ... FOUND! by Steven M. Collins

439 pages

The typical reader will find Collins' belief that the Northern Europeans and Anglo Saxon countries are descendants of the Lost 10 Tribes of Israel a bit of a jolt but no matter your secular or religious beliefs this book it worth its weight in gold for its juicy tidbits of history that are usually ignored by conventional historians. Collins links the Saka and the Scythians with the Israelites and the Anglo Saxons and does a very astute job of it. He also writes a revealing chapter on the migrations of the Goths and their relationship to the Parthian empire (which by the way showed some tendancy to use animal style art also).

Those interested in pre- Columbian Old World contacts with America will find his book a further revelation as he relates Barry Fell's discoveries of a Celtic presence in New England to Israelite exploration and trade in conjunction with the Phoenicians.

This book is worth its price just for the bibliography.

(Available from Amazon.com)

The Ten Tribes are also mentioned in the Apocrypha:

KJV 2 Esdras (Ezra) 13:37-50
[37] And this my Son shall rebuke the wicked inventions of those nations, which for their wicked life are fallen into the tempest;
[38] And shall lay before them their evil thoughts, and the torments wherewith they shall begin to be tormented, which are like unto a flame: and he shall destroy them without labour by the law which is like unto me.
[39] And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;
[40] Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
[43] And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
[44] For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
[45] For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
[46] Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
[47] The Highest shall stay the springs of the stream again, that they may go through: therefore sawest thou the multitude with peace.
[48] But those that be left behind of thy people are they that are found within my borders.
[49] Now when he destroyeth the multitude of the nations that are gathered together, he shall defend his people that remain.
[50] And then shall he shew them great wonders.

The other possible derivation of Scythian is from Isaac. Itzhak - Sakka - Sacae (a people referred to in Herodotus) - Scythes?

Others also point out this likely connection: Itzhak - Sakka - Sacae - Sak's Son - Saxon.

REASON FOR EDITING: I made an unintentional error when I claimed that the Scythians were monotheistic, which Herodotus reports they were not.

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

The Jutes

Jute (joot), n. a member of a Germanic people that invaded Britain in the 5th century A.D., settling mainly in Kent. --Jutish, adj.
&
Jutland (jut-land), n. a peninsula comprising the continental portion of Denmark. 11, 441 sq. mi. (29, 630 sq. km.), Danish, Jylland. --Jutlander, n. --Jutlandish, adj (Random House Websters College Dictionary. Random House Inc. New York. 1995. Pg. 735)

Jute A Low-German tribe that invaded southern England (according to legend under Horsa and Hengist)in the 5th century and set up a kingdom in Kent. (Oxford Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press. New York. 2000. Pg.334)

Angles, Saxons, and Jutes - first raiders, then invaders - came to control southeastern and central Britain (500-534); some historians place the semi-legendary King Arthru in this period (r. ca. 516? Ca. 537?) as leader of the Roman-Briton defenders. (Timelines of War: A Chronology of Warfare from 100, 000 BC to the Present. David Brownstone and Irene Franck. Little, Brown, and Company. Boston. 1996. Pg. 92)

Jutes Germanic people who invaded Britan in the 5th century along with Angles, Saxons, and others. They settled mainly in Kent and the Isle of Wight. (Philips Millenium Encyclopedia and World Atlas. George Philip Limited, an imprint of Octopus Publishing Group. London. 1999. Pg. 356)

JUTES, the third of the Teutonic nations which invaded Britain in the 5th century, called by Bede Iutae or luli (see BRITAIN, ANGLO-SAXON). They settled in Kent and the Isle of Wight together with the adjacent parts of Hampshire. In the latter case the national name is said to have survived until Bedes own time, in the New Forest indeed apparently very much later. In Kent, however, it seems to have soon passed out of use, though there is good reason for believing that the inhabitants of that kingdom were of a different nationality from their neighbors (see KENT, KINGDOM OF). With regard to the origin of the Jutes, Bede only says that Angulus (Angel) lay between the territories of the Saxons and the Iutaea statement which points to their identity with the Iuti or Jyder of later times, i.e. the inhabitants of Jutland. Some recent writers have preferred to identify the Jutes with a tribe called Eucii mentioned in a letter from Theodberht to Justinian (Mon. Germ. lust., Epist. ui., p. 132 seq.) and settled apparently in the neighborhood of the Franks. But these people may themselves have come from Jutland.
See Bede, Hist. Eccles. i. 15, iv. 16. (H. M. C.)

(From http://15.1911encyclopedia.org/J/JU/JUTES.htm)

Anglo-Saxons
name given to the Germanic-speaking peoples who settled in England after the decline of Roman rule there. They were first invited by the Celtic King Vortigern , who needed help fighting the Picts and Scots. The Angles (Lat. Angli ), who are mentioned in Tacitus' Germania, seem to have come from what is now Schleswig in the later decades of the 5th cent. Their settlements in the eastern, central, and northern portions of the country were the foundations for the later kingdoms known as East Anglia , Mercia , and Northumbria . The Saxons , a Germanic tribe who had been continental neighbors of the Angles, also settled in England in the late 5th cent. after earlier marauding forays there. The later kingdoms of Sussex , Wessex , and Essex were the outgrowths of their settlements. The Jutes, a tribe about whom very little is known except that they probably came from the area around the mouths of the Rhine, settled in Kent (see Kent, kingdom of ) and the Isle of Wight. The Anglo-Saxons eventually formed seven separate kingdoms known as the heptarchy . The term Anglo-Saxons was first used in Continental Latin sources to distinguish the Saxons in England from those on the Continent, but it soon came to mean simply the English. The more specific use of the term to denote the non-Celtic settlers of England prior to the Norman Conquest dates from the 16th cent. In more modern times it has also been used to denote any of the people (or their descendants) of the British Isles.

Bibliography: See P. H. Blair, An Introduction to Anglo-Saxon England (1954, repr. 1962); F. M. Stenton, Anglo-Saxon England (3d ed. 1971); D. M. Wilson, The Anglo-Saxons (rev. ed. 1971); D. J. V. Fisher, The Anglo-Saxon Age, 400-1042 (1973); G. R. Owen, Rites and Religions of the Anglo-Saxons (1985); M. J. Whittock, The Origins of England, 410-600 (1986).

(From http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/A/AnglS1xs.asp)

Kent, kingdom of
one of the kingdoms of Anglo-Saxon England. It was settled in the mid-5th cent. by aggressive bands of people called Jutes (see Anglo-Saxons ). Historians are in dispute over the authenticity of the traditional belief that Hengist and Horsa landed in 449 to defend the Britons against the Picts and whether Hengist and his son Aesc subsequently turned against their employer, Vortigern . The Jutes, at any rate, soon overcame the British inhabitants and established a kingdom that comprised essentially the same area as the modern county of Kent . Æthelbert of Kent established his hegemony over England S of the Humber River, received St. Augustine of Canterbury's first mission to England in 597, and became a Christian. During the following century, Kent was periodically subjugated and divided by Wessex and Mercia and finally became a Mercian province under Offa . A Kentish revolt after Offa's death in 796 was put down. Conquered by Egbert of Wessex in 825, Kent was forced to acknowledge the overlordship of Wessex and became part of that kingdom. Although it suffered heavily from Danish raids, it remained one of the most advanced areas in pre-Norman England because of the archbishopric of Canterbury and because of its steady intercourse with the Continent. The metalwork and jewelry of Kent were distinctive and beautiful.

Bibliography: See J. E. A. Jolliffe, Pre-Feudal England: The Jutes (1933, repr. 1963); F. M. Stenton, Anglo-Saxon England (3d ed. 1971).

(From http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/A/AnglS1xs.asp)

JUTES

'Among the SAXON invaders of Britain were the JUTES, a people who came from a part of Denmark still called JUTLAND, to settle in Kent and the Isle of Wight.

'Having noted the evidence previously offered which indicates the Israelitish origin of the Saxons as a whole, let us now consider the Jutes for they have in their name itself conclusive evidence of their Israelitish identity.

'This becomes clear when we remember the great change which took place in the languages of northern Europe some time previous to 100 B.C., whereby a great many words which had previously had in them the sound of our letter 'd' changed this to the sound of 't'. (Grimm's Law). As this change occurred during the years in which the Saxons were migrating to Western Europe from their old home east of the Black Sea, it is obvious that the people who arrived in Denmark as Jutes must have started out as JUDES or Judai.

'Further, as all of the Saxon tribes, including the Jutes, were descended from the SACAE (Sacasene) of MEDIA, it follows that the Sacae must have had among them a tribe called Judes or Judai even before they left Media.

'The importance of this becomes apparent when we remember that the Israel people were divided into TWO separate nations -- Israel and Judah, AND that when the Assyrians conquered Israel and drove the Israelites away into captivity in MEDIA, they ALSO took some of the people from the country districts of Judah. it is certain, therefore, that among the Israelites in Media there was a distinct group who would be known by a plural form of the name Judah -- Judahites, Judae, Judai, Judi, or Judes.

'In this connection we should note too that in the German language the Jews, who are a part of the people of Judah, are called JUDEN (singular -- Jude), which, is equivalent to 'Judes' in English. Further, in the Low German dialects, which are more closely related to Old English (the English of the Saxons and Jutes) the name Jude is pronounced 'Yut', which is equivalent to the English 'Jute'.

'We have, therefore, six known facts to consider: (1) that when the Israel people were deported to Media by the Assyrians, part of the people of the Kingdom of Judah were taken with them; (2) that, as a consequence, there was among the Israelites in Media a group of Judahites, Judai, or Judes; (3) that among the Saxons who came into Britain there was a tribe called Jutes; (4) that during the time they were migrating westward across Europe the 'd' in their language became 't'; (5) that the Saxons were descended from the Sacae of Media; and (6) that Sacae is the name by which the Israelites in Media were known to the Persian historians.

'It is certain, therefore, that the JUTES were originally called Judes or Judai, and that they were the descendants of that part of the people of JUDAH which the Assyrians carried away with Israel to Media. -- Wake Up! August, 1979.

(From http://www.hope-of-israel.org/p18.htm)

Ebed-Yahweh · Apr 18, 2004

This is for those who doubt Flavius Josephus' credibility as a historian:

Josephus the Historian
Titus brought Josephus to Rome, where he lived the remainder of his life. Vespasian granted Josephus Roman citizenship and provided him with a pension and a large estate in Judea. During the reign of Titus, Josephus composed the JW, which begins with the war against Antiochus Epiphanes and concludes with the fall of Jerusalem (book 6) and its aftermath (book 7).
JW was written under imperial sponsorship, and so it is not surprising that blame for the tragic destruction of Jerusalem is deflected from the Romans. Instead, responsibility is placed upon progressively worse Roman administration of Judea, which encouraged a small group of reckless Jewish revolutionaries and did not quell the simmering ethnic tensions.
The 20 volume Antiquities of the Jews (AJ) retells all of Jewish history until the year 66 C.E., but also maintains a structural focus on Jerusalem, whose destruction in 586 concludes book 10, and whose destruction in 70 C.E. is predicted in book 20. AJ, which was probably written under Domitian in the 90s, presents a defense of Judaism, attesting to the antiquity, wisdom, and purity of Jewish tradition.
Some historians see AJ, as well as Josephus' last book, Against Apion, as reflecting a heightened religious sensibility. For example, Josephus' occasionally describes the Pharisees with a degree of adulation absent from JW, and his standard for piety has become more law-centered and less Temple-centered (as it was in JW).
Josephus' Life was primarily written as a response to a history of the war written by Justus of Tiberias. Based on the arguments that Josephus makes, Justus apparently accused Josephus of causing rebellion against Rome in Tiberias, and of having behaved like a brutal, greedy tyrant. Hence, Life begins with Josephus' outstanding pedigree and his scholarly credentials and continues to attempt to refute Justus' claims.

Can We Trust Josephus?
A history in which one of the main historical characters is actually the author is rather strange, and raises the question of whether the historian is overemphasizing or distorting his own role. From a literary perspective, beginning JW well before his own arrival on the scene allows Josephus an opportunity to establish his reliability as an historian.
Josephus' accounts leave some questions unanswered. After the defeat of Cestius Gallus, why did the zealots hand power over to the moderates, and how did someone who claims he was against the war get appointed to the most important military position? Josephus' own answer (at least in Life) was that he had already demonstrated his tremendous ability, and had been recognized from an early age by the leadership of Jerusalem.
Some scholars, however, conclude that Josephus was actively anti-Roman; certainly his actions in Galilee demonstrate that he took his military task seriously. Only later did he say that he had always been against war with Rome. Thus, the historian's retelling defends not only the Romans (only a few bad procurators) and the Jewish people (only a few radicals), but also himself (who did his duty, but recognized that "fortune had gone over to the Romans.")
Other scholars have identified changes in perspective from the earlier JW to the later works like AJ and Life. For example, AJ consistently presents the Pharisees as having the greatest influence with the Jewish populous. This, coupled with Josephus' own claim that he was a Pharisee in Life and the change in religious sensibility noted above have led some scholars to conclude that his support for Pharisaism developed during the 90s C.E.
They correlate this with the Judean political situation of that period when, they assume the rabbinic movement under Rabban Gamaliel began to gain influence. This argument, while reasonable, is based on a variety of unproven assumptions. Nevertheless, Josephus' claim to have lived most of his adult life as a Pharisee is probably suspect.
No historian can write a truly objective account; how much the more so when the author of the history is also its subject. Certainly, Josephus' various works reflect not only his personal bias but also his concern to defend the reputation of his Roman patrons (in JW) and of the Jewish people (in AJ and AA). Josephus accounts certainly provide a more entertaining read than some of the more "objective" modern histories that retell their own, sober versions of Josephus' narrative. Although wading through Josephus' bias is a challenge, it is precisely his vanity and his self-righteousness that makes his histories such fun.
Jeffrey A. Spitzer is a contributing editor for MyJewishLearning.com. He credits his love of ancient history to the late Professor Morton Smith of Columbia University, whose many, many students have raised two more generations of students.

(From http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Ancient/IntellectualTO/JosephusLife_.htm)

Nowhere in this article are we asked to doubt the accuracy of Josephus in reporting events which preceded his own life or did not personally involve him or the Romans, such as the forced conversion of the Edomites by John Hyrcanus. We are also not given any reason to believe that Josephus would lie about the membership composition of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes. Note: I do not believe that every single one of the Pharisees were Edomites, but tI do believe a great many of them were, and that they occupied the most powerful positions in the Sanhedrin. King Herod the Idumean/Edomite would most likely have made certain of it.

Plan 9 · Apr 18, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
Okay, heres what I meant when I asked: Where in the Bible does it say that Yahweh will abandon his people for 2000 years and let the vast majority of them go to hell? Why does He only care about saving a few Jews in the last generation?

Most of the so-called Jews who have lived for the past 2000 years have rejected Yahshua HaMashiach and, according to Christian doctrine (and barring a belief in reincarnation), have therefore been damned to hell. In that respect, they were abandoned, although they made that choice of their own free will.

Now, I know that promises Yahweh He will not abandon his children. In fact, the Word of Yahweh tells us:

KJV Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

KJV Deuteronomy 31:8 And the Lord, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

KJV Joshua 1:5-7
5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.

KJV Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

KJV Romans 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

KJV Romans 9:22-28
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Yahweh does not abandon his children. Unfortunately, however, many of his children choose to abandon themselves.

KJV Ezekiel 20:2-4
2 Then came the word of the Lord unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Are ye come to inquire of me? As I live, saith the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.
4 Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers:

KJV Deuteronomy 32:15-20
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

The Israelites did not abide by the covenant which Yahweh made with them when he brought them out of Egypt, thereby bringing the His wrath upon themselves. But eventually He had mercy on His children and offered them another chance.

KJV Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (Emphasis mine)
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

KJV Hebrews 8:6-13
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

KJV John 4:19-26
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

KJV Matthew 27:11-25
11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.
16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

If Christan doctrine conflicts with what the Bible clearly states, then that droctrine is incorrect and should be discarded.
The Bible always trumps mere Christian opinion. If the Bible clearly states that G-d hasn't abandoned them, then G-d hasn't abandoned them.

Plan 9 · Apr 18, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
Judaism is the rejection of Christianity. Judaism is the religion of the priests, scribes, and elders who sentenced Yahshua, the Son and human manifestation of Yahweh, to death. This religion is codified in the Talmud, the Midrash, and other such writings.

What many people fail to understand is that no one in the Bible ever practiced Judaism. Abraham, Moses, David, and all the true prophets were Christians! They looked forward to the revealing, death, and resurrection of HaMashiach (the Messiah), even as we look backwards. They understood that animal sacrifices could never be enough to atone for their sins. Only Yahweh, only his Yahshua could fully pay the death penalty that our wickedness warrants.

Anyway, contrary to popular belief, Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament. If that were true, where is the temple (or at least a tabernacle)? And where are the priests, the animal sacrifices?

KJV Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

KJV Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Speaking of Yahshua of course)

KJV Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Don't be fooled by the lies of this Satanic world. Yahweh's word is truth. Trust in Yahweh, his Word, and His Holy Spirit, and not the so-called wisdom of man.

As these verses demonstrate, there can be no worship of nor relationship with the Father if one does not know the Son.

KJV John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

KJV John 5:20-23
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

KJV John 8:16-19
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

KJV John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

KJV John 15:23-25
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Therefore anyone who claims to worship the Father, El Shaddai Yahweh Elohim Adonai, and yet does not accept Yahshua Ben-Yahweh as Hemistich (the Messiah), that person is either lying or deceived.

KJV Matthew 16:5-12
5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

KJV Matthew 15:12-14
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

KJV Matthew 23:13-15
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

KJV Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

KJV Romans 2:17-25
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

KJV Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

KJV Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

KJV 1 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

KJV Galatians 5:6-9
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

KJV Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That depends. Are the children of light unable to be deceived? Is it impossible?

KJV 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

KJV Matthew 24:23-24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Alright, so if any person, Jew or Gentile, does not accept the Gospel of Yahshua HaMashiach, then they are not the elect. Also, it does not seem possible, according to the Word, to deceive the elect, at least not totally and completely. The elect might make some mistakes here and there, but they will always return to the truth of their Father, much like the Prodigal Son. So then, it seems clear to me now that, if there are any true descendants of Israel amongst modern Jewry, they don't seem to be in the majority.

Forgive me, but this post shows no real understanding of the Bible at all.
You need to read all the Bible from beginning to end, and you need to do it over and over until you get some actual basic grasp of it.

Plan 9 · Apr 18, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
KJV James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

There you go! They weren't lost; James knew right where they were!
"Scattered" and "lost" are not synonyms.
You have just disproved your own argument, using the Bible to do it.

KJV Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

If this pasage speaks of literal Judaism then Pual is contradicting himself; je also clearly states that he is a Jew, which tribe he's from, that he's a Pharisee, and you've already made reference to this fact in one of yor own posts.

Many so-called pastors and Bible 'scholarS' teach that the Scythians are to be related with Gog and Magog. However, this is nothing but a vicious lie. If Scythians were merely evil barbarians, why is "Barbarian" (which really only implies a non-Greek speaking people) the first type of people mentioned right before them? That makes no sense.

Just because some pastor, scholar, or hisrtorian teaches something doesn't make it true, which is why I say we let the Bible be our guide.

Scythians were/are actually Israelites.

4658 Σκυθης Skythes, n.pr.g. Scythian (name occurs only once in the New Testament) [From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance]

The name has two possible derivations. One possibility is that it comes from the Hebrew word Sukka/Sukkot:

5521 סכה sukkah, n.f. tabernacle, shrine; booth, shelter, dwelling, tent:

5523 סכות sukkot, n.pr.loc. Succoth, "booths"

It is likely that many (but not all) of the 10 northern tribes of the Israelites were forced to remain nomadic by the Assyrians after being taken into captivity around 715-722 B.C. and were thereby forced to dwell in tents, or sukkotim (plural form of sukkot).

KJV 2 Kings 18:9-12
9 And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Hezekiah, which was the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up against Samaria, and besieged it.
10 And at the end of three years they took it: even in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that is the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.
11 And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:
12 Because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.

Keep reading until you reach the end of the OT.

One of the principal extent sources for Scythian history The Histories by Herodotus, Book Four. They are also briefly mentioned here and there throughout The Histories. Here are a few samples of interesting and relevant quotes from Herodotus:

"The Scythians, however, though in other respects I do not admire them, have managed one thing, and that the most important in human affairs, better than anyone else on the face of the earth: I mean their own preservation". (Book IV, 46, pgs. 230-231 in my Penguin Classics version - Penguin Books. London, England. 1996. John Marincolas' revised edition from Aubrey de Selincourt's 1954 translation.)

"It is not their custom to make statues, or to build altars and temples, in honor of any god except Ares". (Book IV, 60, pg. 234) This shows that they were monotheistic at the very least. Whether or not Ares was the actual name of the deity they worshipped or whether that is simply the Greek deity to whom Herodotus compared him is open to question.

"They never use pigs for sacrifice and will not even breed them anywhere in the country". (Book IV, 63, pg. 235)

"After a burial, the Scythians go through a process of cleaning themselves;" (Book IV, 73, pg. 238)

"Like the Egyptian, the Scythians are dead-set against foreign ways, especially against Greek ways". (Book IV, 76. pg. 239)

"These two stories will show the importance which the Scythians attach to their national traditions, and the severity of the punishments they inflict upon anyone who introduces alien customs". (Book IV, 80, pg. 241)

Extra-Biblical, and the same sort of problems exist when reading Herodotus that do with every ancient historian: they had patrons to please and they did not feel our love of objectivity. Historical objectivity is a modern concept, and it's an ideal, not something which we can actually accomplish.

Clues From Scythian Art

Extra-Biblical source, plus this is a game that everyone who lacks real proof loves to play. Do you want me to quote Von Daniken's clues from ancient art supposedly proving that "G-d was an astronaut", as his the cover of his book proclaims?

The Ten Tribes are also mentioned in the Apocrypha:

KJV 2 Esdras (Ezra) 13:37-50
[37] And this my Son shall rebuke the wicked inventions of those nations, which for their wicked life are fallen into the tempest;
[38] And shall lay before them their evil thoughts, and the torments wherewith they shall begin to be tormented, which are like unto a flame: and he shall destroy them without labour by the law which is like unto me.
[39] And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;
[40] Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.[41] But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
[42] That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
[43] And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
[44] For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
[45] For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
[46] Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
[47] The Highest shall stay the springs of the stream again, that they may go through: therefore sawest thou the multitude with peace.
[48] But those that be left behind of thy people are they that are found within my borders.
[49] Now when he destroyeth the multitude of the nations that are gathered together, he shall defend his people that remain.
[50] And then shall he shew them great wonders.

Extra-Biblical source, not actually written by Ezra. What I see you doing is depending on Esdras II and Josephus (which contradict each other, btw) for your Ten Lost Tribes theory, and then hunting through the Bible (although someone else has probably already done that job for you) for individual scriptures which will give the theory a Biblical veneer. This method doesn't work well, as your posts show: "tribe" and "sheep" must be read as synonyms, "scattered" and "lost' must be read as synonyms, "twelve tribes" magically become ten".

I have books here which this subject that I bought for a dollar or less at used bookstores because they're old; mostly written in the seventies. Your new, expensive books from Amazon Books are just rehashing Armstrongism. They are adding a few seemingly cool bells and whistles, but Armstrong is all it is.
I'm going to ask you again:
Are you a member of the Worldwide Church of God, or the member of an offshoot of that organization?

The other possible derivation of Scythian is from Isaac. Itzhak - Sakka - Sacae (a people referred to in Herodotus) - Scythes?

Others also point out this likely connection: Itzhak - Sakka - Sacae - Sak's Son - Saxon.

Here we go with the old Possible Word Derivation game. That's a fun game, which I truly enjoy, but word possible derivations aren't proof of anything much at all.
There are two possible derivations to explain the origin of the term "jeep", too, but, even if we found out which was the true one, neither candidate makes a jeep anything else but what it is: a General Purpose Vehicle, as its original army designation notes.

Plan 9 · Apr 18, 2004

Ebed-Yahweh said:
This is for those who doubt Flavius Josephus' credibility as a historian:

Can We Trust Josephus?
A history in which one of the main historical characters is actually the author is rather strange, and raises the question of whether the historian is overemphasizing or distorting his own role. From a literary perspective, beginning JW well before his own arrival on the scene allows Josephus an opportunity to establish his reliability as an historian.
Josephus' accounts leave some questions unanswered. After the defeat of Cestius Gallus, why did the zealots hand power over to the moderates, and how did someone who claims he was against the war get appointed to the most important military position? Josephus' own answer (at least in Life) was that he had already demonstrated his tremendous ability, and had been recognized from an early age by the leadership of Jerusalem.
Some scholars, however, conclude that Josephus was actively anti-Roman; certainly his actions in Galilee demonstrate that he took his military task seriously. Only later did he say that he had always been against war with Rome. Thus, the historian's retelling defends not only the Romans (only a few bad procurators) and the Jewish people (only a few radicals), but also himself (who did his duty, but recognized that "fortune had gone over to the Romans.")
Other scholars have identified changes in perspective from the earlier JW to the later works like AJ and Life. For example, AJ consistently presents the Pharisees as having the greatest influence with the Jewish populous. This, coupled with Josephus' own claim that he was a Pharisee in Life and the change in religious sensibility noted above have led some scholars to conclude that his support for Pharisaism developed during the 90s C.E.
They correlate this with the Judean political situation of that period when, they assume the rabbinic movement under Rabban Gamaliel began to gain influence. This argument, while reasonable, is based on a variety of unproven assumptions. Nevertheless, Josephus' claim to have lived most of his adult life as a Pharisee is probably suspect.
No historian can write a truly objective account; how much the more so when the author of the history is also its subject. Certainly, Josephus' various works reflect not only his personal bias but also his concern to defend the reputation of his Roman patrons (in JW) and of the Jewish people (in AJ and AA). Josephus accounts certainly provide a more entertaining read than some of the more "objective" modern histories that retell their own, sober versions of Josephus' narrative. Although wading through Josephus' bias is a challenge, it is precisely his vanity and his self-righteousness that makes his histories such fun.
Jeffrey A. Spitzer is a contributing editor for MyJewishLearning.com. He credits his love of ancient history to the late Professor Morton Smith of Columbia University, whose many, many students have raised two more generations of students.

(From http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Ancient/IntellectualTO/JosephusLife_.htm)

Nowhere in this article are we asked to doubt the accuracy of Josephus in reporting events which preceded his own life or did not personally involve him or the Romans...

Yes, it's an article, and an extremely short one: it's an overview. You start by reading overviews, but you don't stop with them.
Short as it is, it gives us plenty of reasons to take everything he says with more than one grain of salt.
Plus he's and extra-Biblical source, and you yourself are only interested in reading his work (and II Esdras) because they are all anyone has to lend any support to this Ten Lost Tribes theory.

This belief isn't in the least Biblical, no matter how anyone tries to shoehorn in some Bible verses to force them to fit it.

Ebed, why are you so attached to this theory? Why is its validity so important to you?

Curt · Apr 18, 2004

Some more that expose false doctrines of seperation,

Num 19:10
10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.
(KJV)

Num 9:14
14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.
(KJV)

Josh 8:33
33 And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel.
(KJV)

Isa 56:5-7
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
(KJV)

Who is a Jew?

YAHWEH's Witness

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Curt

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