The Rosary: Prayer, or Vain Repetitions?

BrightCandle said:

I understand that to pray the complete Rosary of the Virgin Mary, you must say 150 "Hail Marys" as listed below:

"Hail Mary, full of grace;
The Lord is with thee:
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is
the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour
of our death. Amen."

It seems that praying the Rosary conflicts with the very words of Jesus as quoted below. (Note, that to pray the Lord's prayer it takes about 30 seconds)

There is no record in Scripture of Jesus or the Apostles praying in a long and repetitous manner. Why? Because they knew of Jesus' words: ". . .But when ye pray, use not vain repetions, as the heathen do: for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking." (Matt. 6:7-KJV) or as the ESV translates Matthew 6:7-13;

7 "And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:

"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread,
12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil."

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Hmm you do have a point there. When i watch nuns on tv recite the rosary, they seem lifeless and lack any emotion at all. Now i know my sampling of the catholic ways has been small; but to say that prayer over and over and over and over....seems pointless. Also, why is there a need at all to pray to Mary?? Arent we just supposed to pray to God?? Mary cant do anything for us, just as much as my dead ancestors can.

The sense in "telling the Rosary" -- which is not a custom I use -- is in the combination of things done. Yes, it is in repetitively reciting a prayer, but there is more to it than that. The purpose is to meditate on the Mysteries of the Gospel, in four sets of five mysteries, focusing on one mystery for each ten short prayers. The human mind insists on being distracted from the purpose of meditation: "Did I put my suit in the laundry? Feed the cats? What will our client think of the report I mailed? Does Angela really like me? Why are my knees aching? Is that arthritis setting in?" Using a repetitive prayer tallied with Rosary beads keeps what C.S. Lewis used to refer to as "the voluble self" occupied with something focused on God while one attempts to bring one's deeper self into contemplation of the Atonement, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and so on.

Traditionally, Catholics (and many High-Church Anglicans) use the Hail Mary as the "bead-counting" prayer, asking Mary's intercession as they meditate on the mysteries of the faith. The Lord's Prayer and the Gloria Patri ("Glory be to the Father, and to the Son...") end each "decade." The Apostles' Creed is recited at beginning and end of the cycle, and usually between each group of five mysteries.

Orthodox and many Anglicans and Protestants substitute for the Hail Mary the "Jesus Prayer" ("Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner" or a close variant on that text). This enables them to use the Rosary as a method of disciplining oneself to meditation without the focus on Mary.

And for any of you folks who insist on referring to Mary and the saints as "dead" -- do you really read your Bible. Paul is very explicit that "the saints are not dead but alive in Christ." To argue that they may be in Heaven but unable to hear prayers is perhaps a legitimate thing -- but to contradict Scripture in order to find a way to condemn Catholics is really going beyond the pale of Chsitian behavior.

Polycarp1 said:

And for any of you folks who insist on referring to Mary and the saints as "dead" -- do you really read your Bible. Paul is very explicit that "the saints are not dead but alive in Christ." To argue that they may be in Heaven but unable to hear prayers is perhaps a legitimate thing -- but to contradict Scripture in order to find a way to condemn Catholics is really going beyond the pale of Chsitian behavior.

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Ok, when i meant dead, i meant physically dead. I know they are very much alive in heaven. I do not think they can hear us though, that would make them all knowing wouldnt it?

For all you hail mary ppl...is it prayed in front of everyone? Ive seen some catholic nuns on tv (as mentioned in a previous post) recite this prayer in front of many thousands of people. Isnt this contradicting the Bible by praying out in the open for all to hear?

I dont really agree with this prayer. Ive also noticed a lot of things catholics do that I dont agree with. So do any of you know a place to learn about catholicism. Basically im just trying to learn as much about them as i can. To see what is wrong about them.

rocketboy said:

I do not think they can hear us though, that would make them all knowing wouldnt it?

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Only if those who ask the Saints for intercession were everywhere in space and time.

For all you hail mary ppl...is it prayed in front of everyone? Ive seen some catholic nuns on tv (as mentioned in a previous post) recite this prayer in front of many thousands of people. Isnt this contradicting the Bible by praying out in the open for all to hear?

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No more than any Protestand worship service, prayer meeting, or grace before meals for that matter.

I dont really agree with this prayer. Ive also noticed a lot of things catholics do that I dont agree with. So do any of you know a place to learn about catholicism. Basically im just trying to learn as much about them as i can. To see what is wrong about them.

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Learning about someone so you can see what is wrong about them is by definition prejudice. If you wish to learn about Roman Catholicism, I would suggest the OBOB forum

Cliff2 said:

The Bible tells us that Jesus is our mediator and not only that, the Bible says there is only "one mediator".

That excludes Mary or any other being able to intercede on our behalf.

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Brother Cliff2, you are confusing intercession with mediation. Jesus is the mediator, we can and do ask for intercessory prayer from anyone prayer as the last several posts have pointed out.

IgnatiusOfAntioch said:

Brother Cliff2, you are confusing intercession with mediation. Jesus is the mediator, we can and do ask for intercessory prayer from anyone prayer as the last several posts have pointed out.

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OK, then why do you think Mary is able to intercede when she is not in heaven and is dead in the grave.

Oblio said:

Learning about someone so you can see what is wrong about them is by definition prejudice. If you wish to learn about Roman Catholicism, I would suggest the OBOB forum

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Ok, i will refrase that statement because its a little confusing. I meant to say that i want to learn more about the ways of catholics because mainly the only things i do know about them i disagree with. It would be just like reading up on pagan religions to see what they believe and why they are wrong, on a basis of already knowing that they are wrong in the first place. phew, hope this is a little clearer.

Oblio said:

No more than any Protestand worship service, prayer meeting, or grace before meals for that matter.

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Dont you find it boring? Just seeing it on tv makes me feel sleepy. Protestant worship may have the same meaning in a sence, but its much more livelier and happier than the rosary.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

As you can see, God Himself intercedes for us...not dead folks who can't even hear you...To pray to some dead person over God is actually idolatry because that's putting them above/before God Himself.

rocketboy said:

Ok, i will refrase that statement because its a little confusing. I meant to say that i want to learn more about the ways of catholics because mainly the only things i do know about them i disagree with. It would be just like reading up on pagan religions to see what they believe and why they are wrong, on a basis of already knowing that they are wrong in the first place. phew, hope this is a little clearer.

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Yes, it is, you've simply restated your original premise, which is that you are looking for what is wrong, rather than simply reading and assessing the merits against your own values, understanding that sometimes people say the very same things using very different terms. This is why it is vital to read with an eye scanning for TRUTH, not looking for error.

By way of example, I have had dialogues with cultists, Muslims, and atheists, and I could see from the get go that they were only interested in finding out the weakness in my argument, so that they could prove to themselves yet again how right they are. You and I might say that they did so to the jeopardy of their soul, yes?

When it comes to the Catholic/Protestant debate, perhaps your soul is not at stake, for you embrace the Savior. Perhaps instead you fail to become an agent of understanding and peace, which is a shame, for Lord knows we need Christians who speak from compassion AND understanding.

The Bible tells us that Jesus is our mediator and not only that, the Bible says there is only "one mediator".

That excludes Mary or any other being able to intercede on our behalf.

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The verse you refer to only means, he is our way to God. Salvation comes from Christ and by Him alone. There are many other verses however that show that we can act as sub-mediators.

When I pray for my wife I am acting as a mediator between her and God. However, I don't take the place of Christ. Jesus tells us to pray (sub-mediate) for others (Matt 5:44-45).

The Apostle Paul tells us to pray for one another:

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." - Eph. 6:18

We believe Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven and we are bound together as a family.

Cliff2 said:

OK, then why do you think Mary is able to intercede when she is not in heaven and is dead in the grave.

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Mary is in heaven.

rocketboy said:

Dont you find it boring? Just seeing it on tv makes me feel sleepy. Protestant worship may have the same meaning in a sence, but its much more livelier and happier than the rosary.

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It looks very boring. I will give you that. I do have a hard time watching the rosary on TV. However it's not the same as actually praying it. When I pray it, it's a whole different experience. You stop and feel like you actually with God. Reflecting on the life of Christ while praying the rosary is something that is hard to describe but all who have done it knows what I am talking about.

Especially when I pray the sorrowful mysteries since I've seen Mel Gibson's the Passion of Christ since all of those mysteries are in that movie and are so much more livid and real now.

JeffreyLloyd said:

The verse you refer to only means, he is our way to God. Salvation comes from Christ and by Him alone. There are many other verses however that show that we can act as sub-mediators.

When I pray for my wife I am acting as a mediator between her and God. However, I don't take the place of Christ. Jesus tells us to pray (sub-mediate) for others (Matt 5:44-45).

The Apostle Paul tells us to pray for one another:

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." - Eph. 6:18

We believe Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven and we are bound together as a family.

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Yeah but asking someone here to pray for you and then praying to someone to pray for you are two different things. We should only pray to God, no other.

Lilly of the Valley said:

As you can see, God Himself intercedes for us...not dead folks who can't even hear you...To pray to some dead person over God is actually idolatry because that's putting them above/before God Himself.

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1) We don't believe they are dead in the ground. But alive with Christ.

Romans 8:35-39 (New International Version)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Is it is written:

"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


If you look at Luke 15:7, 10 The Angels and Saints know what is going on here on Earth:

"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

rocketboy said:

Yeah but asking someone here to pray for you and then praying to someone to pray for you are two different things. We should only pray to God, no other.

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Don't get hung up on the word "pray." Pray just means "ask." Would you say "We should only ask God, no others"?

Pray doesn't = Worship in every case. We worship God and God alone. We ask saints, who are alive in heaven to pray for us just as I would ask you to pray for me. We are all a family, those alive on Earth and those who are with Christ in Heaven. Hebrews 12:1a:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,

Dont you find it boring? Just seeing it on tv makes me feel sleepy.

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I don't know, never prayed it or watched it, I'm Orthodox

Protestant worship may have the same meaning in a sence, but its much more livelier and happier than the rosary.

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That may be, if lively & happy are goals of prayer. Orthodox (and RCs) have both written and private prayer. We believe that the Saints have perfected prayer and that it is effectual to speak their words in conversation to God. This is not to say that personal prayer is not to be practiced, but that we learn from the experts. When one learns to cook, they follow a cookbook and practice before cooking from scratch, prayer is much the same way.

rocketboy said:

Dont you find it boring? Just seeing it on tv makes me feel sleepy. Protestant worship may have the same meaning in a sence, but its much more livelier and happier than the rosary.

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Lively isn't always a good thing. The prophets of Baal were quite lively- with lots of dancing and hooting and the like- when they were trying to bring fire down from heaven.

Rdr Moses

Cliff2 said:

OK, then why do you think Mary is able to intercede when she is not in heaven and is dead in the grave.

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That is so sad. The only reason some people don’t believe in asking for saintly intersession is because they believe that those saints in heaven are “dead" when Scripture tells us that those who have departed are alive in Christ.



Soul sleep is a false, man made doctrine that only a very small percentage of people believe in (about 12%)



I think it’s really sad that they have so little faith in Jesus, that somehow they think he failed in his mission to defeat death. Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by His death. To be absent from the body is to be alive with Christ in heaven.

The saints in heaven are not dead! All who have left this world in friendship with Him, Their spirit is alive with Christ in heaven. They are part of the body of Christ! Is Christ dead? Is any part of Christ dead? All those that are in Christ are alive.

Grace and peace to you.

JeffreyLloyd said:

The verse you refer to only means, he is our way to God. Salvation comes from Christ and by Him alone. There are many other verses however that show that we can act as sub-mediators.

When I pray for my wife I am acting as a mediator between her and God. However, I don't take the place of Christ. Jesus tells us to pray (sub-mediate) for others (Matt 5:44-45).

The Apostle Paul tells us to pray for one another:

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." - Eph. 6:18

We believe Mary and the Saints are alive in heaven and we are bound together as a family.

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Your verse does not say the saints are in heaven.

Look at how Paul addressed his letters that he wrote. Always saying to the saints at where he wrote it to.

They were alive, not dead and departed.

Mary is in the same boat as any other perosn who has died.

Why would a God of infinite love allow a person to watch their loved ones suffer on earth while they are in heaven?

Just imagine your dear wife or husband suffer on this earth while you are in heaven.

I doubt if that would be much fun.